Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VII: Magic Expected To Retain Core

[fendilim]

In last 6 games Mo has 8 FGM and 10 fouls commited.
You simply won't play extensive amount of time guy who in 9 min and 13 seconds fouls 3 times.
This is nothing new, he had 3 fouls in 13 min vs Heat and 3 fouls in 18 min vs San Antonio. Against Golden State, just month ago, he had 4 fouls in 9 min.

You don't want player that destroys your defense by putting you in bonus by himself over span of 1/3 of a quater.

Bamba talk is simply boring at this point. Guy has never showed anything to be worth as many posts as people commit to discuss about his "talent".
We talk about 7 foot center with second highest wingspan in nba that took 88 shots this year, has 9 dunks and 32 three point attemps. And just for good measurments- shoots 28% for 3 in contract of 71% inside 3 feet. How dumb you have to bee to not understand your strainghts are not shooting in general? He is career 36% mid range shooter (up there with pathetic bombing of Wiggins, guy who's career has been ruined by bricking mid range J's ) and shoots 61% from FT line. HE CAN'T SHOOT. Why is he shooting is one of most baffling things on this team. It's like having MCW take LIllard-type 3s. "But he was open". No ****. He is open because he can't make them.

Playing in an NBA game, against NBA players has to be a complete shock of size, speed, and intensity. Bamba may be disappointing (he is) but it's quite stupid and sad the way he's being handled...He NEVER gets a chance to play through inevitable mistakes. There's no way to tell his capabilities with such limited exposure to game speed. To say "He's been in the league for 3 years and ..." is way off if he's not getting to play. On top of that, WTF are we wasting the greatest opportunity in ORL history for "evaluation"? There's zero incentive to pick off wins, I'm not asking players to tank-they won't and shouldn't- but the FO can't really believe the Martins PR take. Give the guy 15 mins + with occasional starts or trade him NOW before the others learn what our staff apparently knows about him. He's not Tacko, this was a seriously big investment in drafting him that early. This year should be the time to get definitive conclusions about his NBA career-maybe, if they're as smart as PEPE, they already have...but then, why play him at all?

Josh Robbins actually made a good account on this when he guested on the OZone podcast, and I would suggest you to listen to it.

He mentioned how we literally handed Bamba minutes his first two years despite Khem being better than him, now we’re trying a different approach. And despite what numbers say, Bamba there’s still a lot to be desired from Bamba, according to NBA scouts and team executives he has talked to that’s why they are trying a different approach.

[Xatticus]

That Vuc/Bamba +/- again

This game, to me, highlights our coaching deficiencies. AG is having a great game but doing things that he could always do if he played the right role. Evan is shooting well and not dribbling. And like usual, Bamba is leading us in +\- but plays limited minutes.

Stop it with this +/- nonsense. I'm getting tired of whining about the plus or minus of Bamba and the usual: "why is he not playing when he has +5 or +7 and more than Birch or Vuc". This is getting silly.

It ain't your 90s teenage superstar boyband favorite member, complaining about he's singing the backing vocals on the band and the producers are holding him back. Grow up!

This is an overrated stat line that tells you NOTHING of significance about the player and means next to NOTHING altogether.

+/- is intended to measure the player's impact on the court, good try but not successful. It tells you nothing about the individual performance besides how many points the team scored or was outscored respectively, while this particular player is in play. But you know, it depends on the whole team as a unit and not on the single player's contribution.

Even the best superstars, Jordan (1984-90) or LeBron (Cavs struggles) or Kobes of the world (the guy was averaging 20+ points and his usual assist and rebs rate, LAL team still sucked and Kobe ends up with -) can have a situation where they play with subpar teammates and even though are excellent in their individual performance, 1 guy cannot always make up for the deficiencies of 4 other starters and a bunch of people coming off the bench. My point is even the best Hall of Famers playing at the top of their game can have a negative +/- rating on a regular basis while keeping their atrocious teams afloat with superhuman play, or the other way around, of course.

For example, yesterday people were starting to complain since the very moment Bambi stepped on the floor. He had +5 or +6 at one point in the early first half (where the aforementioned quotes above come from, there are plenty of those and it's getting annoying) because we were on the run and Brooklyn couldn't make a jumpshot. Was that Bamba's effect - NO. Bamba played like his usual self, invisible, almost non-existent and no real impact on the game for his limited minutes. He just hanged around his other 4 teammates who were scoring more than the Nets. Measuring his performance with +/- or anyone else's individual impact is borderline idiotic.

In the end, Vuc had +17, Birch had +12 and Bambi finished with +1 even though he was part of some rotations that made huge runs in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. Only Aminu and Okeke had worse +/- on our team, what does that mean? Okeke played solid and finished with -6, Aminu contributed across the board in everything and was a positive presence on the floor and he finished with -4. Do you start to get it now?

What's that statistic telling you about the individual player??? In reality, nothing at all! I think this stat is redundant and should be ignored completely. It might mean that the competition is bad or very good, it might mean that a certain team got hot or cold when that player was on the floor, but never means that one player decides the outcome by his own contribution (happens rarely on superstar teams, never on the Magic in the recent years and certainly Bamba is not that player) therefore +/- should not be taken in account in serious basketball conversations.

Note: maybe, I say just maybe, if you have a transcending superstar or galactic-caliber unstoppable player, maybe then you can put some weight in the +/- nonsense because of the huge impact of that individual would be too great to deny and you might need a tool to measure his it on and off the court. But even in this particular scenario, this statistics is very misleading not accurate and does not hold much water.

Welcome to the stone age.

[Xatticus]

In last 6 games Mo has 8 FGM and 10 fouls commited.
You simply won't play extensive amount of time guy who in 9 min and 13 seconds fouls 3 times.
This is nothing new, he had 3 fouls in 13 min vs Heat and 3 fouls in 18 min vs San Antonio. Against Golden State, just month ago, he had 4 fouls in 9 min.

You don't want player that destroys your defense by putting you in bonus by himself over span of 1/3 of a quater.

Bamba talk is simply boring at this point. Guy has never showed anything to be worth as many posts as people commit to discuss about his "talent".
We talk about 7 foot center with second highest wingspan in nba that took 88 shots this year, has 9 dunks and 32 three point attemps. And just for good measurments- shoots 28% for 3 in contract of 71% inside 3 feet. How dumb you have to bee to not understand your strainghts are not shooting in general? He is career 36% mid range shooter (up there with pathetic bombing of Wiggins, guy who's career has been ruined by bricking mid range J's ) and shoots 61% from FT line. HE CAN'T SHOOT. Why is he shooting is one of most baffling things on this team. It's like having MCW take LIllard-type 3s. "But he was open". No ****. He is open because he can't make them.

Playing in an NBA game, against NBA players has to be a complete shock of size, speed, and intensity. Bamba may be disappointing (he is) but it's quite stupid and sad the way he's being handled...He NEVER gets a chance to play through inevitable mistakes. There's no way to tell his capabilities with such limited exposure to game speed. To say "He's been in the league for 3 years and ..." is way off if he's not getting to play. On top of that, WTF are we wasting the greatest opportunity in ORL history for "evaluation"? There's zero incentive to pick off wins, I'm not asking players to tank-they won't and shouldn't- but the FO can't really believe the Martins PR take. Give the guy 15 mins + with occasional starts or trade him NOW before the others learn what our staff apparently knows about him. He's not Tacko, this was a seriously big investment in drafting him that early. This year should be the time to get definitive conclusions about his NBA career-maybe, if they're as smart as PEPE, they already have...but then, why play him at all?

Josh Robbins actually made a good account on this when he guested on the OZone podcast, and I would suggest you to listen to it.

He mentioned how we literally handed Bamba minutes his first two years despite Khem being better than him, now we’re trying a different approach. And despite what numbers say, Bamba there’s still a lot to be desired from Bamba, according to NBA scouts and team executives he has talked to that’s why they are trying a different approach.

Birch isn't better than Bamba. He wasn't better than Bamba last year. Birch played more minutes than Bamba last year. We got killed when Birch was on the floor. We didn't get killed when Bamba was on the floor. This is not about which player "earns" their minutes. It is about the future of this franchise. Clifford is just salting the earth at this point.

[Knightro]

Josh Robbins actually made a good account on this when he guested on the OZone podcast, and I would suggest you to listen to it.

He mentioned how we literally handed Bamba minutes his first two years despite Khem being better than him, now we’re trying a different approach. And despite what numbers say, Bamba there’s still a lot to be desired from Bamba, according to NBA scouts and team executives he has talked to that’s why they are trying a different approach.

But therein lies the problem. Birch isn't the better player. The only thing Birch does better than Bamba is play harder. That's it.

Birch is not nearly as talented, nor does he make the Magic better when he's on the floor. And most important of all, and let's be completely clear about this, Khem Birch is a complete and utterly fungible backup center.

The 28-year-old scrub backup has consistently played over the 22-year-old 6th overall pick all year?

Why?

The dirty secret is that it actually doesn't have anything to do with what the player provides on the court because Clifford DOES play rookies and young guys, even if they're terrible. He already did it with Bamba his first two years.

Basically all this boils down to is the fact that Clifford soured on Bamba and doesn't want anything to do with him anymore and that's it. I assume it was over the whole weight gain thing combined with aloof practice habits, but who knows.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

I will say this again as I have said before:

There will be ZERO trades involving the Magic at deadline. These morons think they have a championship roster and will run this back next year. LOL.

I have given up on getting passionate and emotional about an organization that doesn't care as much as the fans do.

[Magicfanatic82]

From the Houston Chronicle:

Houston would like to exchange some of its draft assets for a “foundation piece” and will pursue deals along those lines this week.

[fendilim]

Playing in an NBA game, against NBA players has to be a complete shock of size, speed, and intensity. Bamba may be disappointing (he is) but it's quite stupid and sad the way he's being handled...He NEVER gets a chance to play through inevitable mistakes. There's no way no to tell his capabilities with such limited exposure to game speed. To say "He's been in the league for 3 years and ..." is way off if he's not getting to play. On top of that, WTF are we wasting the greatest opportunity in ORL history for "evaluation"? There's zero incentive to pick off wins, I'm not asking players to tank-they won't and shouldn't- but the FO can't really believe the Martins PR take. Give the guy 15 mins + with occasional starts or trade him NOW before the others learn what our staff apparently knows about him. He's not Tacko, this was a seriously big investment in drafting him that early. This year should be the time to get definitive conclusions about his NBA career-maybe, if they're as smart as PEPE, they already have...but then, why play him at all?

Josh Robbins actually made a good account on this when he guested on the OZone podcast, and I would suggest you to listen to it.

He mentioned how we literally handed Bamba minutes his first two years despite Khem being better than him, now we’re trying a different approach. And despite what numbers say, Bamba there’s still a lot to be desired from Bamba, according to NBA scouts and team executives he has talked to that’s why they are trying a different approach.

Birch isn't better than Bamba. He wasn't better than Bamba last year. Birch played more minutes than Bamba last year. We got killed when Birch was on the floor. We didn't get killed when Bamba was on the floor. This is not about which player "earns" their minutes. It is about the future of this franchise. Clifford is just salting the earth at this point.

the team played better with birch on the court the last two years when we made our playoffs run in the 2nd half of the season. And it showed with our game results.

[The Effect]

I can't believe how much arguments there are on this board about which of **** backup C are better

Listen, neither one of them would even be a rotational player on a legit playoff team
Trade them both if you can

[D12VCMagic]

I will say this again as I have said before:

There will be ZERO trades involving the Magic at deadline. These morons think they have a championship roster and will run this back next year. LOL.

I have given up on getting passionate and emotional about an organization that doesn't care as much as the fans do.

This is what I’m bracing for. These guys are complacent, I almost expect us to pay luxury tax for Fournier to go all in on a play in game.

[fendilim]

Josh Robbins actually made a good account on this when he guested on the OZone podcast, and I would suggest you to listen to it.

He mentioned how we literally handed Bamba minutes his first two years despite Khem being better than him, now we’re trying a different approach. And despite what numbers say, Bamba there’s still a lot to be desired from Bamba, according to NBA scouts and team executives he has talked to that’s why they are trying a different approach.

But therein lies the problem. Birch isn't the better player. The only thing Birch does better than Bamba is play harder. That's it.

Birch is not nearly as talented, nor does he make the Magic better when he's on the floor. And most important of all, and let's be completely clear about this, Khem Birch is a complete and utterly fungible backup center.

The 28-year-old scrub backup has consistently played over the 22-year-old 6th overall pick all year?

Why?

The dirty secret is that it actually doesn't have anything to do with what the player provides on the court because Clifford DOES play rookies and young guys, even if they're terrible. He already did it with Bamba his first two years.

Basically all this boils down to is the fact that Clifford soured on Bamba and doesn't want anything to do with him anymore and that's it. I assume it was over the whole weight gain thing combined with aloof practice habits, but who knows.

Lol. Not saying he is better than Bamb. Birch isnt better than Bamba, its that the team plays better with Birch, only stats says otherwise. But NBA scouts and league executives says he doesnt pass the eye test. Thats according to Robbins btw. Lol

[jonbob17]

Lol. Not saying he is better than Bamb. Birch isnt better than Bamba, its that the team plays better with Birch, only stats says otherwise. But NBA scouts and league executives says he doesnt pass the eye test. Thats according to Robbins btw. Lol

I listened to that interview last week, and I think what he was saying was that fans bringing up the per 36 and such, and that argument doesnt align with conversations he had with scouts about Bamba last year, some of them said he didn’t meet the eye test, and brought up the slouching shoulders and effort.

I think Robbins complimented Birch and may have suggested he was better thats why he was playing more this year. The scout stuff was independent of Bamba/Birch PT

I agree with the other post, neither one of these guys is an above average back up 5. I don’t know what people are seeing in Birch this year. He started off the year playing pretty well, I thought he had really improved, but he has really fallen off the last month or so. He sets screens and he plays hard.

In my eyes these guys are more 3rd string centers at the moment. Bamba still has time and length on his side, but not much else.

[Knightro]

I don't have any inside knowledge, but I have to assume Bamba is aloof/lazy/disengaged in the weight room, on the practice court and when watching film as he is on the floor during games.

Clifford absolutely is one of those "I don't care how bad you play as long as you play hard, act like a professional and do the exact things our coaching staff tasks for you to do".

Bamba was consistently playing ahead of Birch last season right up until the COVID shutdown. Then when he came back too fat and out of shape, it seemed like that was it for Clifford permanently and Mo went into the doghouse for good.

[Tarheel]

It will be interesting to see if Bamba becomes anything on his next team, whoever it is.

There are a lot of things he does that concern me (he is consistently out of position on both sides of the ball which is a real worry in your third year), but has the measurables to still affect the game. If he can link up with a coach who can get through to him or who has a system he understands he can be effective but it’s safe to say Cliff isn’t that guy.

[Knightro]

It will be interesting to see if Bamba becomes anything on his next team, whoever it is.

There are a lot of things he does that concern me (he is consistently out of position on both sides of the ball which is a real worry in your third year), but has the measurables to still affect the game. If he can link up with a coach who can get through to him or who has a system he understands he can be effective but it’s safe to say Cliff isn’t that guy.

It doesn't really matter if Bamba is destined to be good or destined to be a complete scrub because we already have concrete evidence that Birch is pretty much a low upside scrub.

Mo was the 6th overall pick. He needs to play as much as he possibly can.

Throw in the fact the Magic are the 4th worst team in the league and the decision to play a 28-year-old journeyman who isn't even that good either over him is even more bizarre and baffling in it's malpractice.

If the Magic were pushing for a playoff spot and the numbers suggested that the team was CLEARLY better with Birch on the floor, I wouldn't like it still, but at least it would be partially justifiable.

But the numbers suggest the opposite. It feels Clifford just soured on the guy and that's the end of it.

[PrimeThyme]

I don't have it in me to engage with these same Bamba discussions anymore. I feel like it's completely redundant to debate whether he is better than birch or not. He needs to play because we have a 6th overall draft pick invested in him and are a bottom-dwelling franchise who needs to be prioritizing player development at all costs.

The reality is our organization and coaching staff feels differently. Some fault falls at the feet of Bamba for him being in this situation, but it's time to get over it if you are Clifford and play him.

Clearly, he's not going to though. So that's that. As long as Clifford is the coach of this team, which I don't see changing anytime soon, that's the reality. I expect Bamba to get moved this summer. I personally don't really care what he does with another team. He is far closer to Hezonja to me than he is to an Oladipo. I don't see it, but that has no bearing on whether he should be playing more minutes for us or not.

He flat out should be, I just think that point has been clearly made on these boards, && I just don't see it changing.

Edit:

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

&& it feels like there has been stuff like this his entire career. He does himself zero favors.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

I don't have it in me to engage with these same Bamba discussions anymore. I feel like it's completely redundant to debate whether he is better than birch or not. He needs to play because we have a 6th overall draft pick invested in him and are a bottom-dwelling franchise who needs to be prioritizing player development at all costs.

The reality is our organization and coaching staff feels differently. Some fault falls at the feet of Bamba for him being in this situation, but it's time to get over it if you are Clifford and play him.

Clearly, he's not going to though. So that's that. As long as Clifford is the coach of this team, which I don't see changing anytime soon, that's the reality. I expect Bamba to get moved this summer. I personally don't really care what he does with another team. He is far closer to Hezonja to me than he is to an Oladipo. I don't see it, but that has no bearing on whether he should be playing more minutes for us or not.

He flat out should be, I just think that point has been clearly made on these boards, && I just don't see it changing.

Edit:

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

&& it feels like there has been stuff like this his entire career. He does himself zero favors.

Part of me feels like he just doesn’t care. Lazy as **** expects things to just be handed to him. His engine & desire just isn’t there sadly. A sore **** toe and he’s like ehh barely playing might as well say it really hurts and I get a night off

[Blue_and_Whte]

+/-... Tired ass argument. Bamba plays GARBAGE minutes and Vuc plays with a bunch of G leaguers outside of AG and Fournier. So damn stupid.

[Magicfanatic82]

I can't believe how much arguments there are on this board about which of **** backup C are better

Listen, neither one of them would even be a rotational player on a legit playoff team
Trade them both if you can

Lol the life of a Magic fan.

[BadMofoPimp]

Regardless of what some people tend to think, Bamba has shown zero to me in that he is a potential full time starter in this league. He will end up a career backup either here or elsewhere. He just isn't that good.

[MaKiaVeLi7]

Bamba gets injured playing a few minutes a game. Pathetic. Couldn’t even suit up tonight.

Not only that. He's double-injured:
hamstring tightness
sprained right big toe

I mean WTH?!?!?!? How in the world can you sprain your big toe?

I can't imagine what you have to do with your big toe in order to sprain it. Maybe if you're an extremely creative porn actor and you are asked to give everything you got in a foot or toe fetish scene, maybe you'd be able to outdo yourself and SPRAIN your friggin right big toe...somehow...

Come oooon, man! This is ridiculous!