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Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks)

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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#741 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:22 pm

StunnerKO wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
BullChit wrote:Pretty sure it's been verified that Adams can't be traded because of the extension.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk


Adams' extension includes a pay cut of $12 million the first season, and the extension is only for two seasons after the current season, so there's no reason he can't be traded.

Adams can’t be traded this season because he signed the extension after august 6th


And why does that stop him from being traded? I can't find anything in the CBA that prevents it. Both RealGM's Trade Checker and ESPN's Trade Machine allow him to be traded.

So show me where the CBA forbids it?

95. Can a player be given an extension and traded at the same time?
Similar to a sign-and-trade arrangement (see question number 92), a team may sign an eligible player to an extension (see question number 58) and immediately trade him to another team. Such an "extend-and-trade" is limited to three seasons, which include any seasons remaining on the player's current contract1. The salary in the first season of the extension can have a 5% raise over the last season of the existing contract, and subsequent raises are limited to 5% of the salary in the first season of the extension. The 5% limit also applies to both likely and unlikely bonuses.

A player cannot be traded in an extend-and-trade after the season (for example, on draft day) in the last season of his contract, or in any season that might be the last season due to an option or ETO.

Since an extend-and-trade has greater limits than a regular extension (three seasons2 and 5% raises vs. four seasons2 and 8% raises) the rules restrict teams from extending and trading the player in separate transactions in order to circumvent these limits. If a team extends a player beyond the limits of an extend-and-trade (for example, if they sign a player to a four-year extension), they can't trade the player for six months. Conversely, a team cannot extend a player it receives in trade for six months, if the extension exceeds the limits of an extend-and-trade3.

Extend-and-trade transactions are rare. To date they have only been used for Kevin Garnett (traded from Minnesota to Boston in 2007) and Carmelo Anthony (traded from Denver to New York in 2011).

A rookie scale contract (see question number 47) can be extended and traded in an extend-and-trade transaction, although there is no benefit to doing so. A rookie scale extension can be signed immediately after the player is traded (such as with James Harden's trade to the Rockets in 2012), and a rookie scale extension (see question number 58) can be much larger than the extension allowed through an extend-and-trade.

1 The current season counts as one full year, even if the extension is signed as late as June 30. So if a contract is extended on June 30 with one full season remaining, only one new season can be added to the contract with an extend-and-trade.
2 Including the remaining seasons on the existing contract.
3 This does not apply to extensions of rookie scale contracts. For example, the Oklahoma City Thunder traded James Harden to the Houston Rockets on October 27, 2012, and the Rockets signed him to an extension four days later.
_____________________________

101. When can't a player be traded? Can players be given "no-trade" clauses in their contracts?
A "no-trade" clause prevents the team from trading the player without the player's consent. A no-trade clause can be negotiated into a new contract1 if the player has been in the NBA for at least eight seasons, and has played for the team with which he is signing for at least four seasons2. They don't have to be the four most recent seasons -- for example, Horace Grant received a no-trade clause from Orlando when he signed with them in 2001. He had played for Orlando for the requisite four seasons, but had played for Seattle and Los Angeles in the interim. Few players ever have one of these negotiated no-trade clauses.

If a player with a negotiated no-trade clause consents to a trade and is traded, his no-trade clause remains in effect with his new team.

There are two additional circumstances in which a trade requires the player's consent:

When the player is playing under a one-year contract (excluding any option year) and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the season. This includes first round draft picks following their fourth (option) season, who accept their team's qualifying offer for their fifth season. When the player consents to such a trade, his Larry Bird/Early Bird rights are not traded with him, and instead becomes a Non-Bird free agent3. The player's consent is also required for any subsequent trades that season.
For one year after exercising the right of first refusal to keep a restricted free agent. The player must consent to a trade to any team, although he cannot be traded to the team that signed him to the offer sheet.
In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

For two months after receiving the player in trade, if the trade aggregates the player's salary with the salaries of other players. However, the team is free to trade the player immediately, either by himself or without aggregating his salary with other salaries. This restriction applies only to players who were acquired using an exception (and not cap room). (Also see question number 90.)
When the trade deadline has passed. Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended4, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.
For three months or until December 15 of that season (whichever is later) after signing a contract as a free agent or matching an offer sheet to a restricted free agent. This obviously does not apply to the trade completing a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 92).
For three months or until December 15 of that season (whichever is later) after converting a Two-Way contract to a standard contract (see question number 83), with the three months beginning on the date the contract is converted.
For three months or until January 15 of that season (whichever is later) after re-signing a free agent with Larry Bird or Early Bird rights, if the team is over the cap, the player's new salary is above the minimum, and he receives a raise greater than 20%.
For 30 days after signing as a draft pick. This applies even for later-signed first round picks, who are signed using cap room at least three seasons after they are drafted (see question number 49).
For 30 days after signing a Two-Way contract (see question number 82).
For one year after signing a player to a Designated Veteran contract or extension (see question number 24).
For six months after signing a player to an extension that is over the limit (in terms of years, salary or raises) for an extend-and-trade transaction5 (see question number 95).
After claiming a player on waivers, for 30 days if the player was claimed during the season. If the player was claimed during the offseason, he cannot be traded until the 30th day of the following season.
A team cannot reacquire a player it traded away during the same season (a season for this purpose being defined as starting on the first day of the regular season and ending on the last day of the Finals). If the player was traded between seasons (i.e., from the first day after the Finals to the last day prior to the start of the next regular season), it cannot reacquire the player prior to the end of the next season. If he is waived by his new team, then he cannot re-sign with his original team until the one-year anniversary of the trade, or until the July 1 following the end of his contract, whichever comes first6. However, if a team trades a player's draft rights, it can reacquire the player during the same season.
A team cannot acquire players during a season when they do not have room on their 15-man roster, even if they intend to waive an incoming player immediately. For example, a team with 14 players cannot trade one player for three, while simultaneously waiving an incoming player to remain at 15 players7.
1 A no-trade clause cannot be negotiated into an extension, unless player's existing contract or extension already contained a no-trade clause.
2 When the player has been with his team a partial season (for example, when traded mid-season), they round his team tenure up. For example, when Carmelo Anthony re-signed with the Knicks in 2014, he received a no-trade clause despite being with the Knicks only 3.5 seasons. The logic is the same as the years of service rule, where a player is credited for a full year of service even if he was on a team's roster for just a single day.
3 When there is an option year involved, they may be able to get around this restriction by invoking the option prior to the trade.
4 Playoff teams can trade players during the playoffs who are not on their playoff roster.
5 This does not apply to rookie scale contracts, which can be extended without such limitations immediately after they are traded.
6 Interestingly, a player can be traded to a third team, waived by the third team, and be eligible to re-sign with his original team before the waiting period expires. While this has not happened in practice, the league clarified its interpretation of this rule in 2017, in regard to a possible instance with Andrew Bogut.
7 It is possible to work around this restriction by waiving a current player, executing the trade, waiving one of the incoming players, and then re-signing the original player.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#742 » by ThisGuyFawkes » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:23 pm

Just to clarify, I think having Lauri on a $20M/yr contract with Lonzo at PG would likely make Lauri an asset. If Lonzo's upward trend continues, he might also be an asset on a $20M contract. While that team might not be a finals contender, those are the types of players that could be moved for a disgruntled super star.

So instead of thinking about how a potential Lonzo trade could propel this team to the highest level, think about how this team could create value and assets, which is something we sorely need. One step at a time.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#743 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:33 pm

dougthonus wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:I have to wonder if Lonzo would sign for 2 or 3 million less per year to be the starting PG in a major market?


Almost certainly no.

1: He's restricted, so he can count on the Bulls matching his high offer anyway and then getting both more money and the destination he wants.

2: Young guys that haven't had a big contract yet do not generally take discounts of 8-12M dollars.


Of course, and that's why with 99.9% of players coming off their rookie deals, you don't even wonder. But with Daddy Ball in the picture, anything is possible, though admittedly unlikely. If he thinks Lonzo can become a bigger star and make more money in a major market, I'm not sure common sense applies with the old man.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#744 » by NecessaryEvil » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:37 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:People talk about Lavine leaving, but is there anything that would push him out the door faster than signing Lauri/Ball to big contracts, and the team still being mediocre without an inkling of hope for that to change?



He’s close with Lonzo

I don’t think Zach and Lauri compliment each other as great as they should though

I’d rather go forward with Zo Ball than Lauri
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#745 » by bearadonisdna » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:37 pm

Lonzo has so much baggage i have trouble seeing him on a winning team.
He is currently a 14 and 5 guy.
Cobe is 15 and 4.

The Bulls could add sweetner, probably more-so to not offend N0. Sato and a 2nd isnt even a serious offer but maybe gauges the Bulls outlook on him,
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#746 » by TheStig » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:42 pm

NecessaryEvil wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:People talk about Lavine leaving, but is there anything that would push him out the door faster than signing Lauri/Ball to big contracts, and the team still being mediocre without an inkling of hope for that to change?



He’s close with Lonzo

I don’t think Zach and Lauri compliment each other as great as they should though

I’d rather go forward with Zo Ball than Lauri

I'd rather trade Coby. What do you need Coby for when you have a full time PG that will be making 20 mil a year? I also think a guy like Lonzo will make Lauri better.

The problem being is that now you have a team that relies on Ball and Lauri and those guys miss games.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#747 » by CaPiTanAK » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:42 pm

bearadonisdna wrote:Lonzo has so much baggage i have trouble seeing him on a winning tea.
He is currently a 14 and 5 guy.
Cobe is 15 and 4.

The Bulls could add sweetner, probably more-so to not offend N0. Sato and a 2nd isnt even a serious offer but maybe gauges the Bulls outlook on him,


Lonzo is a significant better player than Coby Bust. That’s not even a debate. Raw stats are empty calories without context. Whenever Coby is on the floor, 8/10 occasions the opponent is making a 10-15 pts runs from Coby turnovers, turnstile defense, stupidity, or blatant freezing out the offense.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#748 » by bearadonisdna » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:53 pm

CaPiTanAK wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:Lonzo has so much baggage i have trouble seeing him on a winning tea.
He is currently a 14 and 5 guy.
Cobe is 15 and 4.

The Bulls could add sweetner, probably more-so to not offend N0. Sato and a 2nd isnt even a serious offer but maybe gauges the Bulls outlook on him,


Lonzo is a significant better player than Coby Bust. That’s not even a debate. Raw stats are empty calories without context. Whenever Coby is on the floor, 8/10 occasions the opponent is making a 10-15 pts runs from Coby turnovers, turnstile defense, stupidity, or blatant freezing out the offense.


Lonzo appears marginally better.
Lonzo is 23 Cobe is 20.
Lonzo might be on his 3rd team in 4 years.
Dude that isnt good.
Lonzo has been negative in offensive rating and defensive ratio his entire career.
Ok he is an ok pointguard.
Key word, ok. The guy unlikely turns the needle, NO has 2 allstar caliber players and Lonzo looks to be an afterthought on their roster.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#749 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:54 pm

jnrjr79 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:People talk about Lavine leaving, but is there anything that would push him out the door faster than signing Lauri/Ball to big contracts, and the team still being mediocre without an inkling of hope for that to change?


Yes, presumably not trading for Ball, letting Lauri walk for nothing, and just drafting some dude would be less effective.

That's debatable.

I don't get the sense that Lavine likes/appreciates Lauri.

And having max cap room next to Lavine could entice him to "team up" with somebody here (although I'm really not sure he has that type of clout).
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#750 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:55 pm

CaPiTanAK wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:Lonzo has so much baggage i have trouble seeing him on a winning tea.
He is currently a 14 and 5 guy.
Cobe is 15 and 4.

The Bulls could add sweetner, probably more-so to not offend N0. Sato and a 2nd isnt even a serious offer but maybe gauges the Bulls outlook on him,


Lonzo is a significant better player than Coby Bust. That’s not even a debate. Raw stats are empty calories without context. Whenever Coby is on the floor, 8/10 occasions the opponent is making a 10-15 pts runs from Coby turnovers, turnstile defense, stupidity, or blatant freezing out the offense.

He is, but this has more so to do with Coby being bad, than Lonzo being particularly good.

I don't see much upside in giving Lonzo a big pay-day. He's a pretty average starting guard.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#751 » by TheStig » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:03 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
CaPiTanAK wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:Lonzo has so much baggage i have trouble seeing him on a winning tea.
He is currently a 14 and 5 guy.
Cobe is 15 and 4.

The Bulls could add sweetner, probably more-so to not offend N0. Sato and a 2nd isnt even a serious offer but maybe gauges the Bulls outlook on him,


Lonzo is a significant better player than Coby Bust. That’s not even a debate. Raw stats are empty calories without context. Whenever Coby is on the floor, 8/10 occasions the opponent is making a 10-15 pts runs from Coby turnovers, turnstile defense, stupidity, or blatant freezing out the offense.

He is, but this has more so to do with Coby being bad, than Lonzo being particularly good.

I don't see much upside in giving Lonzo a big pay-day. He's a pretty average starting guard.

I think Lonzo is a good starter. He can shoot, defend, handle the ball, has some size and has excellent vision. I can see him being a good player on a contending team. He's a good player. His questions are health and contract. But he is most definitely a plus player.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#752 » by CaPiTanAK » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:08 pm

TheStig wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
CaPiTanAK wrote:
Lonzo is a significant better player than Coby Bust. That’s not even a debate. Raw stats are empty calories without context. Whenever Coby is on the floor, 8/10 occasions the opponent is making a 10-15 pts runs from Coby turnovers, turnstile defense, stupidity, or blatant freezing out the offense.

He is, but this has more so to do with Coby being bad, than Lonzo being particularly good.

I don't see much upside in giving Lonzo a big pay-day. He's a pretty average starting guard.

I think Lonzo is a good starter. He can shoot, defend, handle the ball, has some size and has excellent vision. I can see him being a good player on a contending team. He's a good player. His questions are health and contract. But he is most definitely a plus player.


Agreed. You have to overpay for potential. At 23, Lonzo is already a positive starter at pg. He has consistently improved year after year, making him likely to reach Jrie Holiday peak. Would a prime Jrue Holiday worth 25 mil a year four years from now adjusted for inflation? Possibly. I don’t mind overpaying for positive impact players that help with winning games. My issue has always been paying bums with zero to negative impact. We would easily make the playoff year after year if we pay players according to their impact in term of winning games, meaning no bums on this team causing us to lose games unless they are dirt cheap like 2-4 mil a year.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#753 » by Red8911 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:08 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
CaPiTanAK wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:Lonzo has so much baggage i have trouble seeing him on a winning tea.
He is currently a 14 and 5 guy.
Cobe is 15 and 4.

The Bulls could add sweetner, probably more-so to not offend N0. Sato and a 2nd isnt even a serious offer but maybe gauges the Bulls outlook on him,


Lonzo is a significant better player than Coby Bust. That’s not even a debate. Raw stats are empty calories without context. Whenever Coby is on the floor, 8/10 occasions the opponent is making a 10-15 pts runs from Coby turnovers, turnstile defense, stupidity, or blatant freezing out the offense.

He is, but this has more so to do with Coby being bad, than Lonzo being particularly good.

I don't see much upside in giving Lonzo a big pay-day. He's a pretty average starting guard.
I agree I think trading for Ball would be a mistake. Not crazy about his game, his character, or his family. So many here are convinced that he’s the answer, we ll just have to see who’s right IF this trade even happens.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#754 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:16 pm

TheStig wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
CaPiTanAK wrote:
Lonzo is a significant better player than Coby Bust. That’s not even a debate. Raw stats are empty calories without context. Whenever Coby is on the floor, 8/10 occasions the opponent is making a 10-15 pts runs from Coby turnovers, turnstile defense, stupidity, or blatant freezing out the offense.

He is, but this has more so to do with Coby being bad, than Lonzo being particularly good.

I don't see much upside in giving Lonzo a big pay-day. He's a pretty average starting guard.

I think Lonzo is a good starter. He can shoot, defend, handle the ball, has some size and has excellent vision. I can see him being a good player on a contending team. He's a good player. His questions are health and contract. But he is most definitely a plus player.

The problem is contract.

I don't actually see Lonzo as being better than Alex Caruso. Both can be very nice as 4th/5th options within a lineup. And that's an important job!

Our problem is that we don't have those 1st - 3rd options in place for these premium complementary players to be worthwhile. We just have Lavine.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#755 » by CaPiTanAK » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:17 pm

Red8911 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
CaPiTanAK wrote:
Lonzo is a significant better player than Coby Bust. That’s not even a debate. Raw stats are empty calories without context. Whenever Coby is on the floor, 8/10 occasions the opponent is making a 10-15 pts runs from Coby turnovers, turnstile defense, stupidity, or blatant freezing out the offense.

He is, but this has more so to do with Coby being bad, than Lonzo being particularly good.

I don't see much upside in giving Lonzo a big pay-day. He's a pretty average starting guard.
I agree I think trading for Ball would be a mistake. Not crazy about his game, his character, or his family. So many here are convicted that he’s the answer, we ll just have to see who’s right IF this trade even happens.


Excessive, almost borderline racist to question somebody character and family as an outsider. Fact is that the Ball Daddy and Ball Momma are literally top 5 in term of parental support for bball players.

I hope the Bulls organization doesn’t share your mindset.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#756 » by fleet » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:18 pm

JohnnyTapwater wrote:You get Lonzo and bring in Gelo to cause papa ball to raise hell to get Melo here.

The fanbase would looooove that.

That’s actually not out of the realm of possibility :lol: :thinking:
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#757 » by fleet » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:20 pm

TheStig wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
CaPiTanAK wrote:
Lonzo is a significant better player than Coby Bust. That’s not even a debate. Raw stats are empty calories without context. Whenever Coby is on the floor, 8/10 occasions the opponent is making a 10-15 pts runs from Coby turnovers, turnstile defense, stupidity, or blatant freezing out the offense.

He is, but this has more so to do with Coby being bad, than Lonzo being particularly good.

I don't see much upside in giving Lonzo a big pay-day. He's a pretty average starting guard.

I think Lonzo is a good starter. He can shoot, defend, handle the ball, has some size and has excellent vision. I can see him being a good player on a contending team. He's a good player. His questions are health and contract. But he is most definitely a plus player.

Yeah I think you bring in assets if you can. Its not like a big ticket item is gonna want to use our capspace
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#758 » by CaPiTanAK » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:22 pm

Papa Ball is already a top 5 bball Daddy. Getting both of your sons to be top 5 NBA picks and soon Ball Jr the third to be another top 5 pick is a great accomplishment.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#759 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:24 pm

fleet wrote:
TheStig wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:He is, but this has more so to do with Coby being bad, than Lonzo being particularly good.

I don't see much upside in giving Lonzo a big pay-day. He's a pretty average starting guard.

I think Lonzo is a good starter. He can shoot, defend, handle the ball, has some size and has excellent vision. I can see him being a good player on a contending team. He's a good player. His questions are health and contract. But he is most definitely a plus player.

Yeah I think you bring in assets if you can. Its not like a big ticket item is gonna want to use our capspace

We could have signed both Christian Wood and Jerami Grant on sub-max deals if we had capspace last offseason.

If a player does not outplay their contract, they really aren't much of an asset. I don't see how Lonzo Ball is going to outplay a $20 million deal.

Let's bring in players who can actually be assets.
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Re: Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks) 

Post#760 » by dougthonus » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:27 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:People talk about Lavine leaving, but is there anything that would push him out the door faster than signing Lauri/Ball to big contracts, and the team still being mediocre without an inkling of hope for that to change?


Losing talent overall and being worse (even if fans believed there was a larger amount of flexibility to improve later).

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