2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray.

[Ruzious]

Semantics. I agree the big man in the middle can change a game but all I need to refute your premise is to mention Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace.

Which if either was a true center?

Ben Wallace was the center.

Name a good defense below-average offense guard that you would consider a star.

Probably the closest currently would be Smart.

[Ruzious]

Semantics. I agree the big man in the middle can change a game but all I need to refute your premise is to mention Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace.

Which if either was a true center?

Ben Wallace was the center.

Name a good defense below-average offense guard that you would consider a star.

Thinking back, Michael Cooper.

I believe Matisse Thybuile (sp?) could be one with talented offensive players surrounding him.

Dennis Johnson of the Celtics I think played for Seattle first IIRC when he wasn’t counted for offense.

Darryl Walker. Really great player.

Dudley Bradley was a phenomenal player.

Nate, DeShawn Stevenson and Larry Hughes each had SOMETHING on the defensive end. Hughes was well on his way to an All Star game alongside Arenas. Larry wasn’t below average offensively but like GARRETT TEMPLE or Trent Hassell nobody would say offense is his strength.

What I think is an Eric Snow IS A STAR NEXT TO AN ALLEN IVERSON.

Just think the defense is not being compensated the same way. In basketball it is a little bit different than football. A defensive lineman can make a hell of a lot of money. I think I left tackle like Trent Williams is going to earn more but I am not even sure about that. What I really know is that the unsung heroes in the NBA are guys like Paul Millsap.

I knows I tried to tell the wizards about him.

Remember Bobby Jones back in the day with the 76ers. Damn, I'm so old I remember him back at UNC. Nicknamed The Secretary of Defense. He was the ultimate glue guy.

[nate33]

This is just my opinion, I know others disagree, but Wagner is the 3rd best player in this draft after Suggs&Mobley.

I just don't see it.

I think he's a fine player. A very smart player. But he's more of a glue guy, not a primary option and not an elite on-ball shut down defender. At best, he peaks out as the 3rd best player on a good team. He's basically Otto Porter with a less reliable 3-ball. Teams can certainly use guys like that, but they're typically not the 3rd best player in a draft, particularly a strong draft like this one.

I do think you are right in singling him out as being underrated. But I think he's more like the 6th or 7th best guy in this draft, not the 3rd.

Probably the 2nd best defensive player in the country behind Mobley, shooting the 3 at 38% on a solid amount of attempts. Excellent free throw shooter. Much better playmaker and driver, more explosive and stronger athlete, better frame than Otto Porter (who was an excellent player when healthy). Would you rather have a healthy prime Otto Porter, or a present day Jayson Tatum?

Regardless, you should name the 6-7 players that will be better NBA players than Wagner. Suggs&Mobley will be good, Green&Cunningham are solid bets to be volume scorers. Who else? Who are the 5th and 6th guys? And why?

I wish there was a decent draft database to explore. I'd like to know how many sophomores who averaged less than 13 points per game were drafted in the top 5.

And I don't have an answer to your question about the who the 5th and 6th guys are because I haven't assessed all the prospects in this draft well enough to rank them. (And I don't plan to. I don't know how guys like Dat2U do it.) I'm just saying that history suggests that a glue guy role player is unlikely to be the 3rd best guy in a strong draft class. At spots that high, you usually expect guys who can create their own shot or big men who can change a game defensively. I'm not knocking Wagner. I agree that he is good. Just not top 3 good.

[nate33]

Ben Wallace was the center.

Name a good defense below-average offense guard that you would consider a star.

Thinking back, Michael Cooper.

I believe Matisse Thybuile (sp?) could be one with talented offensive players surrounding him.

Dennis Johnson of the Celtics I think played for Seattle first IIRC when he wasn’t counted for offense.

Darryl Walker. Really great player.

Dudley Bradley was a phenomenal player.

Nate, DeShawn Stevenson and Larry Hughes each had SOMETHING on the defensive end. Hughes was well on his way to an All Star game alongside Arenas. Larry wasn’t below average offensively but like GARRETT TEMPLE or Trent Hassell nobody would say offense is his strength.

What I think is an Eric Snow IS A STAR NEXT TO AN ALLEN IVERSON.

Just think the defense is not being compensated the same way. In basketball it is a little bit different than football. A defensive lineman can make a hell of a lot of money. I think I left tackle like Trent Williams is going to earn more but I am not even sure about that. What I really know is that the unsung heroes in the NBA are guys like Paul Millsap.

I knows I tried to tell the wizards about him.

Remember Bobby Jones back in the day with the 76ers. Damn, I'm so old I remember him back at UNC. Nicknamed The Secretary of Defense. He was the ultimate glue guy.

Another guy that comes to mind is Mookie Blaylock.

[Ruzious]

Thinking back, Michael Cooper.

I believe Matisse Thybuile (sp?) could be one with talented offensive players surrounding him.

Dennis Johnson of the Celtics I think played for Seattle first IIRC when he wasn’t counted for offense.

Darryl Walker. Really great player.

Dudley Bradley was a phenomenal player.

Nate, DeShawn Stevenson and Larry Hughes each had SOMETHING on the defensive end. Hughes was well on his way to an All Star game alongside Arenas. Larry wasn’t below average offensively but like GARRETT TEMPLE or Trent Hassell nobody would say offense is his strength.

What I think is an Eric Snow IS A STAR NEXT TO AN ALLEN IVERSON.

Just think the defense is not being compensated the same way. In basketball it is a little bit different than football. A defensive lineman can make a hell of a lot of money. I think I left tackle like Trent Williams is going to earn more but I am not even sure about that. What I really know is that the unsung heroes in the NBA are guys like Paul Millsap.

I knows I tried to tell the wizards about him.

Remember Bobby Jones back in the day with the 76ers. Damn, I'm so old I remember him back at UNC. Nicknamed The Secretary of Defense. He was the ultimate glue guy.

Another guy that comes to mind is Mookie Blaylock.

So good that Pearl Jam stole his name.

[nate33]

Semantics. I agree the big man in the middle can change a game but all I need to refute your premise is to mention Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace.

Which if either was a true center?

Ben Wallace was the center.

Name a good defense below-average offense guard that you would consider a star.

Thinking back, Michael Cooper.

I believe Matisse Thybuile (sp?) could be one with talented offensive players surrounding him.

Dennis Johnson of the Celtics I think played for Seattle first IIRC when he wasn’t counted for offense.

Darryl Walker. Really great player.

Dudley Bradley was a phenomenal player.

Nate, DeShawn Stevenson and Larry Hughes each had SOMETHING on the defensive end. Hughes was well on his way to an All Star game alongside Arenas. Larry wasn’t below average offensively but like GARRETT TEMPLE or Trent Hassell nobody would say offense is his strength.

What I think is an Eric Snow IS A STAR NEXT TO AN ALLEN IVERSON.

Just think the defense is not being compensated the same way. In basketball it is a little bit different than football. A defensive lineman can make a hell of a lot of money. I think I left tackle like Trent Williams is going to earn more but I am not even sure about that. What I really know is that the unsung heroes in the NBA are guys like Paul Millsap.

I knows I tried to tell the wizards about him.

None of these guys are stars with the possible exception of DJ. They're not indispensable. You can obtain these guys as free agents. Stars are guys that teams don't let get away.

I suppose this is a semantic argument. But when you say Mitchell will be a star, I think it's hyperbole. There's nothing wrong with saying Mitchell will be a "good player", or a "reliable starter". But if you throw the word "star" around indiscriminately, the term becomes meaningless.

[nate33]

He is better than Bradley Beal right now. He has something that Bradley Beal will never have. In my opinion Bradley Beal is better than 90% of the other guards out there. He’s probably better than 95% of the other guards out there. He’s the top scorer in the league for a reason.

Stop it. Just stop it. No he isn't. Suggs is a great prospect and #2 on my board at the moment but he's a long way from approaching the stratosphere that Beal is in. Imagine Beal in the West Coast Conference against the likes of Pepperdine, Pacific & St. Mary's... guess how he'd do?

At best, one could argue that Suggs is an equal or slightly better prospect to Beal. After all, Beal went 3rd behind a clearly flawed prospect in MCW. But Beal's development since college has been an outlier - way into the tail of the bell curve. One expects NBA players to improve a lot in their first 3 seasons, but how many NBA players have improved so much from Year 4 to Year 9? Maybe 1-2% have improved like Beal has. Assuming ANY prospect will improve like that is a pretty big assumption. And that's what it would take for Suggs to be better than Beal.

[Dat2U]

I see some very slight separation in the 1st tier. Mobley & Suggs at 1 and 1a. Cade & Jalen at 3 & 4. It's very much up in the air to me beyond those 4

I like Wagner, not as much as NatP4 does but he's a target I'd be happy with if we land in our typical 9 spot.

Everyone else is penciled in atm.

[NatP4]

Mobley had 10 points on 6 shots, 13 rebounds 5 assists 3 blocks and a steal in 27 minutes last night against Kansas.

[NatP4]

Tankathon top 9:

1. Mobley
2. Suggs
3. Cunningham
4. Green
5. Kuminga
6. Johnson
7. Barnes
8. Kispert
9. Wagner

[Ruzious]

Mobley had 10 points on 6 shots, 13 rebounds 5 assists 3 blocks and a steal in 27 minutes last night against Kansas.

Not only that, you could see the Kansas players hesitate when they went inside. Isaiah Mobley had a hand in that, but Evan was the key. Offensively, he's almost too unselfish. I want to see what he'll do in a close tournament game. Will he ever impose his will on the offensive side, or is that just not in his personality?

[nate33]

Tankathon top 9:

1. Mobley
2. Suggs
3. Cunningham
4. Green
5. Kuminga
6. Johnson
7. Barnes
8. Kispert
9. Wagner

Damn!

I don't like any talk of Mobley going #1. I liked it much better when he was at #3. It gave the Wizards much higher odds of getting him.

What's the difference between Tankathon's "Big Board" and their "Mock Draft". Their Mock still has Cade, Mobley and Suggs at 1, 2 and 3 respectively.

[DCZards]

If we're talking great perimeter defenders don't leave out Sidney Moncrief and Walt "Clyde" Frazier.

Both could defend AND carry a team offensively.

[NatP4]

Tankathon top 9:

1. Mobley
2. Suggs
3. Cunningham
4. Green
5. Kuminga
6. Johnson
7. Barnes
8. Kispert
9. Wagner

Damn!

I don't like any talk of Mobley going #1. I liked it much better when he was at #3. It gave the Wizards much higher odds of getting him.

What's the difference between Tankathon's "Big Board" and their "Mock Draft". Their Mock still has Cade, Mobley and Suggs at 1, 2 and 3 respectively.

Big board is how they rate the players, mock is projecting where they land. Cunningham will definitely go #1.

[nate33]

Mobley had 10 points on 6 shots, 13 rebounds 5 assists 3 blocks and a steal in 27 minutes last night against Kansas.

Not only that, you could see the Kansas players hesitate when they went inside. Isaiah Mobley had a hand in that, but Evan was the key. Offensively, he's almost too unselfish. I want to see what he'll do in a close tournament game. Will he ever impose his will on the offensive side, or is that just not in his personality?

I'm not really sure he has the ability yet. He is so thin with such a high center of gravity that he just can't get near the rim against defenders with any strength and fundamentals.

I think in his first few years in the NBA, his bread and butter will be catch-and-shoot jumpers off the pick and pop, or slashes to the rim when guarded by a plodder. It's going to be a while before he can score around the basket as a post player.

[Dark Faze]

Perhaps not relevant, but:

2020 picks 53 and 58
53. Thunder draft Cassius Winston >> officially traded to the Wizards

58. 76ers draft Paul Reed

Watch on YouTube

And we were desperate for big man support.

[nate33]

If we're talking great perimeter defenders don't leave out Sydney Moncrief and Walt "Clyde" Frazier.

Both could defend AND carry a team offensively.

The argument was whether or not a defensive guard/wing with below average offensive ability (like Mitchell) could be considered a "star". I said no. CCJ says yes.

You are right that Moncrief and Frazier were elite defenders. But they also needed superb offense to be considered stars.

[nate33]

Perhaps not relevant, but:

2020 picks 53 and 58
53. Thunder draft Cassius Winston >> officially traded to the Wizards

58. 76ers draft Paul Reed

Watch on YouTube

And we were desperate for big man support.

Reed had almost Brandon Clarke caliber numbers in college. It was a total mystery to me why he lasted so long in the draft. I thought he'd go early in the 2nd round.

All that said, I don't get too excited when big men thrive in the G-League. The difference between good bigs in G-League and good bigs at the NBA level is massive. The disparity is much smaller with wings and guards. So, oftentimes, a good G-League guard can be called up and he'll hold his own at the NBA. That's usually not the case with bigs.

[Ruzious]

Tankathon top 9:

1. Mobley
2. Suggs
3. Cunningham
4. Green
5. Kuminga
6. Johnson
7. Barnes
8. Kispert
9. Wagner

I still think Sengun should be up there. One factoid I found interesting - looking at his team's box score, I saw James Blackmon - former star at Indiana. He's a good 3 and D player - at 6'5, 210. At 25, he's got time for a good NBA career.

[NatP4]

What makes Mitchell a poor offensive player? Are we talking about Davion Mitchell from Baylor?