[Woj] Fournier to BOS

[kingcong95]

What 2nds were traded? I can't find it anywhere.

min(BOS, MEM) 2025
BOS 2027
This return tells me clearly that Orlando only cared about the TPE, otherwise they'd have taken TT and a late first.

[Spin Move]

Why didn't the Celtics offer Tristan and first for Fournier? Then they could have kept Theis

ORL probably has zero interest in Thompson....although I suppose that may have been worth it for ORL to get a 1st round pick instead of two 2nds..

From BOS perspective, I actually think long term Wagner is a upgrade over Theis.

Wagner is 3 inches taller, 5 years younger, a step quicker, less expensive contract, better passer. Wagner is a really strong finisher, really good defender..

Wagner is expiring and I think Thies is the more athletic of the two, he is certainly the more skilled of the two Wagner is bigger but not a better shotblocker despite his size, per 36 minutes (becuae thies plays more) Wagner block .9 shots and Theis blocks exactly double that. Thies also rebounds at a higher rate per 36. Maybe lont term Wagner gets better but we would have to resign him which may or may not happen, he is younger and bigger but right now its a pretty steep downgrade.

[cl2117]

Disappointing for Boston. You can't knock the short term value, but just think it's a loss from a long-term strategic one.

Don't think the TPE should have been broken down for an expiring player who is likely a rental. With their cap situation it's one of the few ways they could add a significant salaried players in the coming years. I'd rather have seen them get Wayne Ellington from the Pistons and keep the TPE whole. Yes it's a worse on court option, but he'd fill similar holes and they could have kept Theis.

It's not the end of the world, but certainly a disappointment to have used 60% of the TPE on a rental.

Ignoring that I love Fournier's fit and the value they got is great. The Celtics really just need another rotation level wing they can count on to score. Pushing some of their current bench out of the rotation in favor of a guy who can give you 30 minutes a night will go a long way to helping them out.

Think it's a missed opportunity long-term, but I am selfishly bullish on what it could mean for making this year's team more watchable.

Gotta be a little disappointing for the Magic as well, not the best return, but they did the right thing holding out until the deadline in case anything broke differently and he could have landed them something more significant like a first. A pair of 2nds and no bad money isn't bad as a fallback.

[HartfordWhalers]

Boston: A-
Orlando: C+

Only reason this is an A-, is it required chipping down that TPE. Boston gets a talented scorer, still young enough to have value in the offseason (re-sign or possible S&T) and capable of boosting a playoff series, for next to nothing. Solid.

Orlando gets addition by subtraction (lotto odds!), and something for an impending ufa. But given the random big salaries around the league, it feels a shame they couldn't take back some bad salary and do much better. Savings does help ownership though, so maybe this is harsh and a B- was possible, but I'm sticking with my initial stance, this is eh, fine.

[Hal14]

Why didn't the Celtics offer Tristan and first for Fournier? Then they could have kept Theis

ORL probably has zero interest in Thompson....although I suppose that may have been worth it for ORL to get a 1st round pick instead of two 2nds..

From BOS perspective, I actually think long term Wagner is a upgrade over Theis.

Wagner is 3 inches taller, 5 years younger, a step quicker, less expensive contract, better passer. Wagner is a really strong finisher, really good defender..

Wagner is expiring and I think Thies is the more athletic of the two, he is certainly the more skilled of the two Wagner is bigger but not a better shotblocker despite his size, per 36 minutes (becuae thies plays more) Wagner block .9 shots and Theis blocks exactly double that. Thies also rebounds at a higher rate per 36. Maybe lont term Wagner gets better but we would have to resign him which may or may not happen, he is younger and bigger but right now its a pretty steep downgrade.

Theis and Wagner have nearly identical TS% over the past 2 years. This year Wagner's PER is 15.5, compared to 15.3 for Theis. One of Boston's biggest weaknesses is lack of ball movement - Wagner has higher assist % this year than Theis. Another big weakness for Boston is matching up with bigger, stronger, tough bigs in the paint - advantage Wagner there as well since he's a tough, physical 6'11" guy who will battle anyone inside, whereas Theis is only 6'8" and gets eaten alive by guys like Embiid, Bam, Gobert and Lopez. Wagner is 1st on the Wizards in defensive rating and averages 0.9 steals per game in just 15 mins which translates to 2.1 steals per 36 mins, which would lead the NBA in steals...bar far. the league leader right now averages 1.8 steals per game.

"Pretty steep downgrade" might be taking it a little far..especially since this allows Robert Williams (1st on the team in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating, 1st in BPM, 1st in TS%, 1st in PER) to get more mins.

What's not debatable is who has the higher upside for the future. That's clearly Wagner, who is 3 inches taller, 5 years younger a step quicker and much less expensive.

Not to mention this move was necessary to keep the Celtics under the cap, after the Fournier trade. And Theis is gone this offseason as a free agent (someone's gonna give him at least $9, maybe $10 mil this offseason and the Celtics aren't gonna give him that kind of $ when they have Thompson on the books for $9 mil and Robert Williams signed for another year as well...so at least this way BOS gets something for Theis, rather than him leaving as a free agent in the offseason and they get nothing for him.

[Texas Chuck]

Mo Wagner isn't just better than Theis. He's better than Russell or Chief ever were. And Fournier is gonna make everyone forget Hondo and Ray Allen.

Sorry if I'm underselling the Celtic additions, but I don't believe Fournier is quite up to Michael Jordan, but awfully, awfully close.

[Homerclease]

Mo Wagner isn't just better than Theis. He's better than Russell or Chief ever were. And Fournier is gonna make everyone forget Hondo and Ray Allen.

Sorry if I'm underselling the Celtic additions, but I don't believe Fournier is quite up to Michael Jordan, but awfully, awfully close.

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This is why Theis was dealt, that and to duck the tax.

Wagner needs to be better than Grant Williams and Semi Ojeleye, not Theis. That’s not exactly a high bar for him to reach.

[Patsfan1081]

Mo Wagner isn't just better than Theis. He's better than Russell or Chief ever were. And Fournier is gonna make everyone forget Hondo and Ray Allen.

Sorry if I'm underselling the Celtic additions, but I don't believe Fournier is quite up to Michael Jordan, but awfully, awfully close.

??? Where did a Celtic fan overate either player to the point it illicits this response? Fournier is a nice wing scorer. No one is expecting anything out of Wagner (could help with Pace compared to Theis but that’s it)but moving Theis does get them under the tax an opens up minutes and a starting spot for Williams who has been playing pretty well.

Also Theis has been pretty bad this season, his numbers are down across the board. He’s a poor rebounder (offensive boards almost cut in half from last year) and passer, I can’t even tell you how many bunnies he’s missed. He still decent from behind the arc but he doesn’t seem to block shots at a good level anymore and still can’t keep the fouls down. This may seem like kicking him on the way out but I’m interested in seeing if the pace of play gets better without him. I could easily be wrong.

[Patsfan1081]

Disappointing for Boston. You can't knock the short term value, but just think it's a loss from a long-term strategic one.

Don't think the TPE should have been broken down for an expiring player who is likely a rental. With their cap situation it's one of the few ways they could add a significant salaried players in the coming years. I'd rather have seen them get Wayne Ellington from the Pistons and keep the TPE whole. Yes it's a worse on court option, but he'd fill similar holes and they could have kept Theis.

It's not the end of the world, but certainly a disappointment to have used 60% of the TPE on a rental.

Ignoring that I love Fournier's fit and the value they got is great. The Celtics really just need another rotation level wing they can count on to score. Pushing some of their current bench out of the rotation in favor of a guy who can give you 30 minutes a night will go a long way to helping them out.

Think it's a missed opportunity long-term, but I am selfishly bullish on what it could mean for making this year's team more watchable.

Gotta be a little disappointing for the Magic as well, not the best return, but they did the right thing holding out until the deadline in case anything broke differently and he could have landed them something more significant like a first. A pair of 2nds and no bad money isn't bad as a fallback.

It’s going to depend on if Ainge can resign Fournier long term. If he can’t that it was a pretty big blunder as he also just used two late lottery picks on wings that prob got pushed down the depth chart even more. Honestly Ainge has really done poorly drafting since the Tatum pick which in turn has led him to mismanage the roster. There would have been no need for a panic move if he had addressed the bench previously.

[Spin Move]

ORL probably has zero interest in Thompson....although I suppose that may have been worth it for ORL to get a 1st round pick instead of two 2nds..

From BOS perspective, I actually think long term Wagner is a upgrade over Theis.

Wagner is 3 inches taller, 5 years younger, a step quicker, less expensive contract, better passer. Wagner is a really strong finisher, really good defender..

Wagner is expiring and I think Thies is the more athletic of the two, he is certainly the more skilled of the two Wagner is bigger but not a better shotblocker despite his size, per 36 minutes (becuae thies plays more) Wagner block .9 shots and Theis blocks exactly double that. Thies also rebounds at a higher rate per 36. Maybe lont term Wagner gets better but we would have to resign him which may or may not happen, he is younger and bigger but right now its a pretty steep downgrade.

Theis and Wagner have nearly identical TS% over the past 2 years. This year Wagner's PER is 15.5, compared to 15.3 for Theis. One of Boston's biggest weaknesses is lack of ball movement - Wagner has higher assist % this year than Theis. Another big weakness for Boston is matching up with bigger, stronger, tough bigs in the paint - advantage Wagner there as well since he's a tough, physical 6'11" guy who will battle anyone inside, whereas Theis is only 6'8" and gets eaten alive by guys like Embiid, Bam, Gobert and Lopez. Wagner is 1st on the Wizards in defensive rating and averages 0.9 steals per game in just 15 mins which translates to 2.1 steals per 36 mins, which would lead the NBA in steals...bar far. the league leader right now averages 1.8 steals per game.

"Pretty steep downgrade" might be taking it a little far..especially since this allows Robert Williams (1st on the team in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating, 1st in BPM, 1st in TS%, 1st in PER) to get more mins.

What's not debatable is who has the higher upside for the future. That's clearly Wagner, who is 3 inches taller, 5 years younger a step quicker and much less expensive. Wagner is also an FA. Wagner was not re-upped for a 4th year telling you what his previous teams thought of him. I think Danny could have gotten more for Thies.

Not to mention this move was necessary to keep the Celtics under the cap, after the Fournier trade. And Theis is gone this offseason as a free agent (someone's gonna give him at least $9, maybe $10 mil this offseason and the Celtics aren't gonna give him that kind of $ when they have Thompson on the books for $9 mil and Robert Williams signed for another year as well...so at least this way BOS gets something for Theis, rather than him leaving as a free agent in the offseason and they get nothing for him.

I don't disagree with the fact that Thies needed to be moved to get under the tax and there is some addition by subtraction by forcing Brad to play Williams. However at the Moment Thies is a much better player overall the Mo Wagner, they may be equals as shooters but by every defensive metric Thies i better.

[Hal14]

Wagner is expiring and I think Thies is the more athletic of the two, he is certainly the more skilled of the two Wagner is bigger but not a better shotblocker despite his size, per 36 minutes (becuae thies plays more) Wagner block .9 shots and Theis blocks exactly double that. Thies also rebounds at a higher rate per 36. Maybe lont term Wagner gets better but we would have to resign him which may or may not happen, he is younger and bigger but right now its a pretty steep downgrade.

Theis and Wagner have nearly identical TS% over the past 2 years. This year Wagner's PER is 15.5, compared to 15.3 for Theis. One of Boston's biggest weaknesses is lack of ball movement - Wagner has higher assist % this year than Theis. Another big weakness for Boston is matching up with bigger, stronger, tough bigs in the paint - advantage Wagner there as well since he's a tough, physical 6'11" guy who will battle anyone inside, whereas Theis is only 6'8" and gets eaten alive by guys like Embiid, Bam, Gobert and Lopez. Wagner is 1st on the Wizards in defensive rating and averages 0.9 steals per game in just 15 mins which translates to 2.1 steals per 36 mins, which would lead the NBA in steals...bar far. the league leader right now averages 1.8 steals per game.

"Pretty steep downgrade" might be taking it a little far..especially since this allows Robert Williams (1st on the team in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating, 1st in BPM, 1st in TS%, 1st in PER) to get more mins.

What's not debatable is who has the higher upside for the future. That's clearly Wagner, who is 3 inches taller, 5 years younger a step quicker and much less expensive. Wagner is also an FA. Wagner was not re-upped for a 4th year telling you what his previous teams thought of him. I think Danny could have gotten more for Thies.

Not to mention this move was necessary to keep the Celtics under the cap, after the Fournier trade. And Theis is gone this offseason as a free agent (someone's gonna give him at least $9, maybe $10 mil this offseason and the Celtics aren't gonna give him that kind of $ when they have Thompson on the books for $9 mil and Robert Williams signed for another year as well...so at least this way BOS gets something for Theis, rather than him leaving as a free agent in the offseason and they get nothing for him.

I don't disagree with the fact that Thies needed to be moved to get under the tax and there is some addition by subtraction by forcing Brad to play Williams. However at the Moment Thies is a much better player overall the Mo Wagner, they may be equals as shooters but by every defensive metric Thies i better.

Wagner was 1st on Wizards in defensive rating. And he's averaging 0.9 steals per game in just 15 mins, which translates to 2.1 steals per 36 mins, which would lead lead the NBA in steals per game...by far, the league leader right now averages 1.8 steals per game. Theis meanwhile is too slow to guard 4's and too small to guard 5's. Wagner is 3 inches taller and a step quicker. Plus Wagner has a higher PER. Theis steal % is 1.2 this year, Wagner's steal % this year is 2.6.

The move makes room for Williams (1st on BOS in PER, 1st in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating,1st in TS%, 1st in BPM) to start..you have 2 guys in Williams and Wagner who are only 23, getting better, developing. Theis peaked last season and his numbers across the board are down this year (Theis went from 17.9 PER last year to 15.3 this year, he went from 2.4 BPM last year to 0.2 this year, from 1.7 VORP last year to 0.6 this year). So Theis' numbers across the board down from last year, turning 29 in a week, going downhill whereas Wagner is still developing, getting better at age 23, 3 inches taller than theis, 5 years younger and a step quicker.

In addition to the fact that Wagner and Theis have nearly identical TS% over the last 2 years, Wagner has a higher assist % this year.