Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - Joe Johnson workout, pg 97

[DrWood]

You guys are getting me pretty excited here. Serious question, is Teague better than Donte right now?

Overall? No, DDV is better than Teague

But, Teague looks like he can bring some intensity on the defensive end that eclipses what Donte can

Will need to watch his fit to confirm, but feel like if we need a few stops, I'd rather have Teague out there late

What?

Honestly can't contribute much else, I'm baffled...

You don't like to tell people they're horribly wrong? What are you doing on the internet?

[-Jragon-]

Overall? No, DDV is better than Teague

But, Teague looks like he can bring some intensity on the defensive end that eclipses what Donte can

Will need to watch his fit to confirm, but feel like if we need a few stops, I'd rather have Teague out there late

Absolutely not.

Yeah, Teague is a better defender than Forbes or DJA, but doesn't compare to Donte.

I can compare them. Here, they both are not optimal length-wise to cover the 2. Donte goes flying after the ball on a gamble as the bigger player calmly reaches over him and now he's out of position and gives up an open shot or layup. It's almost as if I've seen it happen over and over this year.

[-Jragon-]

Well since we’re back to doom and gloom for this season, and Bud won’t be fired - what do we do next?

You think this is doom and gloom? Were you here for any Herb years? We have bag night dudes on this board right now.

People are being realistic, yes but it based on not wanting to waste Giannis years by not being very competitive deep in the playoffs at the very least. We have the right point guard now but we're worried about some patterns developing:

1. Possible regression of Brook on O or Middleton on D
2. Enough talented wings that can play D AND shoot consistently win a few series
3. Can Bud get everyone on the same page on these new defensive/offensive schemes especially new people and working around injuries
4. Are we even on the same level as the Nets or do our new additions match what we need to be more efficient on both ends
5. Our money and assets are largely depleted and big moves are going to be tough to make

I think all of this and other things people are bringing up are fair to debate and it will never be doom and gloom as long as Giannis is still here.

[-Jragon-]

Also some rules should be adjusted because there's no way we tampered more than whatever Lebron and Durant are doing to build their teams.

[skones]

I can compare them. Here, they both are not optimal length-wise to cover the 2. Donte goes flying after the ball on a gamble as the bigger player calmly reaches over him and now he's out of position and gives up an open shot or layup. It's almost as if I've seen it happen over and over this year.

You've been way off base on Donte with regularity. You've stated things like, "PJ Tucker has been a starter his whole career and Donte is a bench talent," "Forbes should start over Donte," and "he must be one of the best three point shooters of all time in order to start." It's getting embarassing.

He ranks:
3rd amongst SGs in D-LEBRON
5th amongst SGs in DRPM
16th amongst SGs in DEF Raptor
79th amongst all players in DRAPM
60th amongst all players in DWS
31st amongst all players in ST%

But hey, you stick with "not optimal length-wise" and act like his mistakes largely outweigh the havoc he wreaks on that end of the floor the rest of the time.

[paulpressey25]

He ranks:
3rd amongst SGs in D-LEBRON
5th amongst SGs in DRPM
16th amongst SGs in DEF Raptor
79th amongst all players in DRAPM
60th amongst all players in DWS
31st amongst all players in ST%

But yet if we put Donte on the trade market, we'd probably get a Bogdan back at best.

I'd say that simply to note that I'm both glass half-full and glass half-empty with Donte. He's a nice all around player, but he's also a guy who a team will always be looking to upgrade on if you can.

[-Jragon-]

I can compare them. Here, they both are not optimal length-wise to cover the 2. Donte goes flying after the ball on a gamble as the bigger player calmly reaches over him and now he's out of position and gives up an open shot or layup. It's almost as if I've seen it happen over and over this year.

You've been way off base on Donte with regularity. You've stated things like, "PJ Tucker has been a starter his whole career and Donte is a bench talent," "Forbes should start over Donte," and "he must be one of the best three point shooters of all time in order to start." It's getting embarassing.

He ranks:
3rd amongst SGs in D-LEBRON
5th amongst SGs in DRPM
16th amongst SGs in DEF Raptor
79th amongst all players in DRAPM
60th amongst all players in DWS
31st amongst all players in ST%

But hey, you stick with "not optimal length-wise" and act like his mistakes largely outweigh the havoc he wreaks on that end of the floor the rest of the time.

Forbes will get played off the floor in the playoffs sooner than Donte, I agree there. PJ we'll see but for all your amazing magical stats Donte did absolutely nothing against the Clippers... nothing. Not sure I've seen us overrate one of our own this much before and have a million mystical stats to "verify" his talent even as we watch him get wiped up in front of ours eyes by Reggie Jackson and Mann who went through him like he was invisible. I'll admit he usually looks good guarding PGs but those overplays against SGs are rough.. remember at the end of regulation in the overtime? They know his trick, he has no elite skill, I can't think of another winning team he could start for - he wouldn't even get off the bench for that Clippers team we just played. He's pretty good at everything but maybe just maybe can we understand that these two things are both possible 1. He's a good overall player and 2. He might not have the actual needed skills that we need to start for us.

I actually like his game. I view him as a slower, very poor man's Dwayne Wade. Similar size, good at everything...here's the difference Wade had a nose for the bucket and developed an elite skill - scoring with polished offensive moves. I do think DDV can improve and it's too bad he didnt have a real off season to polish a couple moves for this year. And he's still overrated even if he is 79th in DRAPM..... these the same type stats that made people think that Thon Maker was future hall of Famer because his per 36 and other weird stats were really high.

DLEBRON lmao that's a real stat - it has a dude's name in it? I mean you're unknowingly discrediting the stat by claiming DDV is the 3rd best SG at it wtf. In other posts I've listed like 20 SGs off the top of the dome that we'd have to trade DDV with one or two 1sts to get - obviously irrelevant.

[DutchManDanFan]

Well since we’re back to doom and gloom for this season, and Bud won’t be fired - what do we do next?

You think this is doom and gloom? Were you here for any Herb years? We have bag night dudes on this board right now.

People are being realistic, yes but it based on not wanting to waste Giannis years by not being very competitive deep in the playoffs at the very least. We have the right point guard now but we're worried about some patterns developing:

1. Possible regression of Brook on O or Middleton on D
2. Enough talented wings that can play D AND shoot consistently win a few series
3. Can Bud get everyone on the same page on these new defensive/offensive schemes especially new people and working around injuries
4. Are we even on the same level as the Nets or do our new additions match what we need to be more efficient on both ends
5. Our money and assets are largely depleted and big moves are going to be tough to make

I think all of this and other things people are bringing up are fair to debate and it will never be doom and gloom as long as Giannis is still here.

To be fair, we missed a big chance in 2019. Mirotic going 1-7 on wide open 3's (and Khris and Bled both 1-6 from 3, Giannis 2-7 on FT's) in a game that went to OT prevented us to take a 3-0 lead and probably a sweep and a finals win as well. The effect of this loss was horrific. A choke job in the next 3 games, Bud not able to adjust, Bled as a true choke artist and Giannis losing confidence.
Against Miami nothing changed so we had to start all over this year, while other teams improved (a lot).

The good things:
1. If we win it this year it will be legen...dary.
2. If we don't and fail miserably it should be the end of coach Bud in Milwaukee.
So basicly it's a win-win anyway.

[ShootingtheJ]

He ranks:
3rd amongst SGs in D-LEBRON
5th amongst SGs in DRPM
16th amongst SGs in DEF Raptor
79th amongst all players in DRAPM
60th amongst all players in DWS
31st amongst all players in ST%

But yet if we put Donte on the trade market, we'd probably get a Bogdan back at best.

I'd say that simply to note that I'm both glass half-full and glass half-empty with Donte. He's a nice all around player, but he's also a guy who a team will always be looking to upgrade on if you can.

Now we're talking about 2 different things. Skones is talking about Donte as a defender. What his overall value is is irrelevant to his abilities solely as a defender. Is Donte a better defender than an offensive player? Yes. To claim Donte is a poor defender is to deny data science.

[JimmyTheKid]

Well since we’re back to doom and gloom for this season, and Bud won’t be fired - what do we do next?

I'm still Team Optimist. We brought in PJ Tucker to solidify the defense and he's played a grand total of 3 games. Our best bench player, Bobby Buckets, is now out with COVID. Jrue missed 10 games with COVID. We've showed plenty of glimpses of being a title contender when healthy.

If we're playing this poorly at full strength, Bud is gone after the season. If we get bounced before the ECF he's gone. If we have a poor showing in the ECF he should be gone. If we lose to Brooklyn in game 7 of a great series or something, he's probably retained.

[EastSideBucksFan]

Overall? No, DDV is better than Teague

But, Teague looks like he can bring some intensity on the defensive end that eclipses what Donte can

Will need to watch his fit to confirm, but feel like if we need a few stops, I'd rather have Teague out there late

Absolutely not.

Yeah, Teague is a better defender than Forbes or DJA, but doesn't compare to Donte.

Donte has had numerous coverage miscues in end of game situations this year leaving shooters open

He has the physicality, mostly, to be a good defender, but has mental miscues.

[Rstuedes24]

Team hasn’t announced the Teague news yet have they? Any reason why it wouldnt be out yet? I was hoping he would be available tonight

[skones]

Absolutely not.

Yeah, Teague is a better defender than Forbes or DJA, but doesn't compare to Donte.

Donte has had numerous coverage miscues in end of game situations this year leaving shooters open

He has the physicality, mostly, to be a good defender, but has mental miscues.

None of this makes him worse than Jeff Teague. You're not making a case. He doesn't have the physicality to be a good defender, he IS a good defender. The idea that mental miscues are somehow unique to Donte is not based on reality.

[skones]

DLEBRON lmao that's a real stat - it has a dude's name in it? I mean you're unknowingly discrediting the stat by claiming DDV is the 3rd best SG at it wtf. In other posts I've listed like 20 SGs off the top of the dome that we'd have to trade DDV with one or two 1sts to get - obviously irrelevant.

LOL. No. I'm not unknowingly discrediting the stat AT ALL. Are you so blind to your own narrative that you legitimately laughed at it because he has a dude's name in it and brushed it away as a result? The only one discrediting the stat is you because it goes against what you pretty baselessly believe based on a pretty substantial combination of data. It's comical. LEBRON is the heir apparent to PIPM which is pretty widely considered one of the better isolated season performance metrics, but you wouldn't know that because you didn't know it exists. But sure, Per 36 and other weird stats made other people think this when A) per36 is the kindergarten version of NBA numbers when compared to analytics so clearly NOT "the same type of stats" and B) I was in the vocal minority that Thon was trash so no, those numbers didn't say that.

If you think you can name 20 SGs off the top of "the dome" that you'd have to trade one or two 1sts to get? Your "dome" isn't very good at processing SGs in the NBA.

[EastSideBucksFan]

Yeah, Teague is a better defender than Forbes or DJA, but doesn't compare to Donte.

Donte has had numerous coverage miscues in end of game situations this year leaving shooters open

He has the physicality, mostly, to be a good defender, but has mental miscues.

None of this makes him worse than Jeff Teague. You're not making a case. He doesn't have to physicality to be a good defender, he IS a good defender. The idea that mental miscues are somehow unique to Donte is not based on reality.

I literally said Donte is better than Teague

Read the posts.

Learn the nuance of discussion.

Try again

[skones]

Donte has had numerous coverage miscues in end of game situations this year leaving shooters open

He has the physicality, mostly, to be a good defender, but has mental miscues.

None of this makes him worse than Jeff Teague. You're not making a case. He doesn't have to physicality to be a good defender, he IS a good defender. The idea that mental miscues are somehow unique to Donte is not based on reality.

I literally said Donte is better than Teague

Read the posts.

Learn the nuance of discussion.

Try again

Lol, I think it's YOU who needs to work on the nuance of discussion given you stated, and I quote:

But, Teague looks like he can bring some intensity on the defensive end that eclipses what Donte can

We are consistently talking about defense and it's ME who needs to learn the "nuance of discussion?" It's you who needs to "try again" and you who's not "reading the posts." Jeff Teague, over the entirety of his career, has not brought the same intensity that Donte brings on that end let alone eclipse it, but you've pulled that nugget out because why?

[EastSideBucksFan]

None of this makes him worse than Jeff Teague. You're not making a case. He doesn't have to physicality to be a good defender, he IS a good defender. The idea that mental miscues are somehow unique to Donte is not based on reality.

I literally said Donte is better than Teague

Read the posts.

Learn the nuance of discussion.

Try again

Lol, I think it's YOU who needs to work on the nuance of discussion given you stated, and I quote:

But, Teague looks like he can bring some intensity on the defensive end that eclipses what Donte can

We are consistently talking about defense and it's ME who needs to learn the "nuance of discussion?" It's you who needs to "try again" and you who's not "reading the posts." Jeff Teague, over the entirety of his career, has not brought the same intensity that Donte brings on that end let alone eclipse it, but you've pulled that nugget out because why?

Yes, saying a player could perform better in a given situation does not necessarily mean that player is better than the other.

Bud has pulled Donte late in games for PatCon on a few occasions this season.

Does that mean Bud thinks Pat is better than Donte?

All I said, was Teague could be a good option to close, given Donte's inconsistencies there. And yes, Donte has performed well in some games late, but not others. It's good to have options.

Now I remember why I have you on mute.

[skones]

Yes, saying a player could perform better in a given situation does not necessarily mean that player is better than the other.

Bud has pulled Donte late in games for PatCon on a few occasions this season.

Does that mean Bud thinks Pat is better than Donte?

All I said, was Teague could be a good option to close, given Donte's inconsistencies there. And yes, Donte has performed well in some games late, but not others. It's good to have options.

Now I remember why I have you on mute.

LOL. No, it's not what you said, which is why I explicitly quoted what you said above. The irony coming from a big "nuance of discussion guy." There is literally no evidence to what I quoted, and now you're just moving goal posts because you were called on it. Jeff Teague has only ranked 709th in 3 Year DRAPM and I have to go alllll the way back to the 14-15 campaign to find a single defense that was better with Teague on the floor than it was when he was off but yeah! He'll bring something on that end of the floor Donte can't! Honestly, wtf are you talking about?

PS:
You have me on mute because you whined about not being able to hold a shovel during a ground breaking ceremony because you felt you belonged on this pedestal of fandom because of SOB and I told you that that was stupid. Years later, still remains as ridiculous to me now as it did then.

[raferfenix]

Bud has pulled Donte late in games for PatCon on a few occasions this season.

What do we think of Connaughton at backup SG?

Could he be part of the solution for the guards that are too big for Donte or Teague to defend effectively (particularly in end of game situations)?

In theory PJ Tucker could take on more of the small ball 4 minutes Pat has been playing. Thanasis has also been showing signs of improvement.

That combination has me wondering whether shifting Connaughton's position would be a better solution than picking up someone like Austin Rivers.

[-Jragon-]

DLEBRON lmao that's a real stat - it has a dude's name in it? I mean you're unknowingly discrediting the stat by claiming DDV is the 3rd best SG at it wtf. In other posts I've listed like 20 SGs off the top of the dome that we'd have to trade DDV with one or two 1sts to get - obviously irrelevant.

LOL. No. I'm not unknowingly discrediting the stat AT ALL. Are you so blind to your own narrative that you legitimately laughed at it because he has a dude's name in it and brushed it away as a result? The only one discrediting the stat is you because it goes against what you pretty baselessly believe based on a pretty substantial combination of data. It's comical. LEBRON is the heir apparent to PIPM which is pretty widely considered one of the better isolated season performance metrics, but you wouldn't know that because you didn't know it exists. But sure, Per 36 and other weird stats made other people think this when A) per36 is the kindergarten version of NBA numbers when compared to analytics so clearly NOT "the same type of stats" and B) I was in the vocal minority that Thon was trash so no, those numbers didn't say that.

If you think you can name 20 SGs off the top of "the dome" that you'd have to trade one or two 1sts to get? Your "dome" isn't very good at processing SGs in the NBA.

This is why advanced stat guys are so confused when a team with the right kinds of role players (defenders that can hit open shots) kicks our #ss in the playoffs every year while the Dontes of the world sit on the bench watching. You aren't going to surprise a team in a playoff series by dribbling straight into a crowd or by hustling around so yeah your advanced stats that try to measure regular season intangibles, which is cool, are out the window.

Also, let me add that if Bud stops letting Brook stay underneath you're in for a rude awakening on some of these amazing defensive stats. Donte isn't a stopper, he's not going to stop Harden or Kyrie even worse than he couldn't stop an Clipper.. and he also isn't going to keep up in scoring with any of them so it's honesty tough to see what his level of usefulness will even be in the playoffs unless he gets on fire from 3.