Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - Joe Johnson workout, pg 97

[-Jragon-]

Advanced stat guys digging deep to prove Donte is what a top 15 SG? 20? What do you think?

I'm not even sure he's the best SG on our team. If we accidentally left him from the team plane force few weeks and started Merrill or Nwora are we worse?

[skones]

This is why advanced stat guys are so confused when a team with the right kinds of role players (defenders that can hit open shots) kicks our #ss in the playoffs every year while the Dontes of the world sit on the bench watching. You aren't going to surprise a team in a playoff series by dribbling straight into a crowd or by hustling around so yeah your advanced stats that try to measure regular season intangibles, which is cool, are out the window.

Also, let me add that if Bud stops letting Brook stay underneath you're in for a rude awakening on some of these amazing defensive stats. Donte isn't a stopper, he's not going to stop Harden or Kyrie even worse than he couldn't stop an Clipper.. and he also isn't going to keep up in scoring with any of them so it's honesty tough to see what his level of usefulness will even be in the playoffs unless he gets on fire from 3.

1) Donte hits 42.1% of his wide open threes, plays on the other end of the floor, and you insist he's not the "right kind of roleplayer." Makes zero sense.
2) Advanced stats don't measure regular season intangibles. I don't think you know what the definition of that word is.
3) These metrics make an attempt to isolate player performance which makes them independent of Brook Lopez, so not just "advanced stats guys," people who just know more than you and understand what they speak about.
4) You don't understand any of these advanced numbers, what they mean, how they're calculated, what the purpose of them is, yet you disregard them anyway. This is the opposite of someone who carries an informed opinion.
5) Teams pay "advanced stat guys" to create these type of metrics and models in order to help their ball clubs in 2021. Are you being paid because of your in depth analysis with "dribbling straight into a crowd and hustling?" I think not. Perhaps when a number of metrics agree on something, it's worth taking note of instead of making a baseless choice in calling them "fake news."

[JimmyTheKid]

I hate the Donte slander because I really like him as a player and dude. But, yes, he is most definitely, to use a baseball term, replacement level. On some nights he's our 4th best player, other nights, 9th best. And everywhere in between. Before the "OMGZ PPGZ ARRENT EVERYATHINGGGG" brigade jumps down my throat, I could care less about PPGZZ. Its about consistency on both sides of the ball. And its why I don't think its outlandish to suggest that Jeff Teague, given the same amount of minutes as Donte with this group, could give you equal or better production. And I say that without having seen Jeff Teague play more than a handful of games the last few years.

[jschligs]

Advanced stat guys digging deep to prove Donte is what a top 15 SG? 20? What do you think?

I'm not even sure he's the best SG on our team. If we accidentally left him from the team plane force few weeks and started Merrill or Nwora are we worse?

Come on, man. This is just ridiculous. I'm in the same vein as PP, I think he's a solid SG but he isn't moving the needle too much one way or another. But to say that Merrill or Nwora are equal to him is just a hilariously bad take.

[-Jragon-]

What's his DLEBRON stats rank in the postseason 640th? I hope you're right

[skones]

I hate the Donte slander because I really like him as a player and dude. But, yes, he is most definitely, to use a baseball term, replacement level. On some nights he's our 4th best player, other nights, 9th best. And everywhere in between. Before the "OMGZ PPGZ ARRENT EVERYATHINGGGG" brigade jumps down my throat, I could care less about PPGZZ. Its about consistency on both sides of the ball. And its why I don't think its outlandish to suggest that Jeff Teague, given the same amount of minutes as Donte with this group, could give you equal or better production. And I say that without having seen Jeff Teague play more than a handful of games the last few years.

Well, you used a baseball term that you don't understand, so there's that. The admittance that you've seen Jeff Teague play a handful of games over "the last few years" also provides quite a bit of context in the lack of knowledge you have on the matter. What's really outlandish is not thinking it IS outlandish to suggest something when you haven't even watched one of the guys play extensively.

The standard for "replacement level" in Basketball is a VORP of -2.

[skones]

What's his DLEBRON stats rank in the postseason 640th? I hope you're right

17th amongst SGs who have played more than 100 minutes over the course of the last three seasons. That should tell you something because no one here thinks he played well in the bubble or in the playoffs, yet there he is, positively contributing to the team's defense.

Just go ahead and use a gif next time. I've included it below. Bookmark it or save it for use. Your choice.

Spoiler:

[WRau1]

Saying that DDV isn't stopping Kyrie or Harden to prove that he isn't a good defender is absolutely absurd. No one in the league is stopping those two from doing whatever they want, DDV can at least make it harder which is pretty much all you can ask for.

[-Jragon-]

This is why advanced stat guys are so confused when a team with the right kinds of role players (defenders that can hit open shots) kicks our #ss in the playoffs every year while the Dontes of the world sit on the bench watching. You aren't going to surprise a team in a playoff series by dribbling straight into a crowd or by hustling around so yeah your advanced stats that try to measure regular season intangibles, which is cool, are out the window.

Also, let me add that if Bud stops letting Brook stay underneath you're in for a rude awakening on some of these amazing defensive stats. Donte isn't a stopper, he's not going to stop Harden or Kyrie even worse than he couldn't stop an Clipper.. and he also isn't going to keep up in scoring with any of them so it's honesty tough to see what his level of usefulness will even be in the playoffs unless he gets on fire from 3.

1) Donte hits 42.1% of his wide open threes, plays on the other end of the floor, and you insist he's not the "right kind of roleplayer." Makes zero sense.
2) Advanced stats don't measure regular season intangibles. I don't think you know what the definition of that word is.
3) These metrics make an attempt to isolate player performance which makes them independent of Brook Lopez, so not just "advanced stats guys," people who just know more than you and understand what they speak about.
4) You don't understand any of these advanced numbers, what they mean, how they're calculated, what the purpose of them is, yet you disregard them anyway. This is the opposite of someone who carries an informed opinion.
5) Teams pay "advanced stat guys" to create these type of metrics and models in order to help their ball clubs in 2021. Are you being paid because of your in depth analysis with "dribbling straight into a crowd and hustling?" I think not. Perhaps when a number of metrics agree on something, it's worth taking note of instead of making a baseless choice in calling them "fake news."

Because half of these were probably created to prove ideas such as Lebron is better for winning games than Kobe or Westbrook despite having less points per game - and I believe that's true in itself. However, it's measuring him as the main player on the team with the most gravity and most responsibility which the opposite is true for Donte. Example, Lebron had the most attention from opposing defenses and probably the least amount of help on D since he's one of the best. Donte on the other hand gets the least amount of attention on offense and probably gets the most help since he's undersized at his position. Universally applying these stats becomes distorted and you get data manipulation that people can cherry pick like Donte is 3rd best DLEBRON SG oh wow hurry tell Boston to give us Jaylen or Tatum for him before he slides down to #4 in the league. These highly detailed stats would serve better to compare stars with equal amounts of gravity and defensive responsibility while leaving outliers like Donte out of discussion- otherwise we should start making the case that Donte was snubbed by All Star voting this year.

[skones]

Because half of these were probably created to prove ideas such as Lebron is better for winning games than Kobe or Westbrook despite having less points per game - and I believe that's true in itself. However, it's measuring him as the main player on the team with the most gravity and most responsibility which the opposite is true for Donte. Example, Lebron had the most attention from opposing defenses and probably the least amount of help on D since he's one of the best. Donte on the other hand gets the least amount of attention on offense and probably gets the most help since he's undersized at his position. Universally applying these stats becomes distorted and you get data manipulation that people can cherry pick like Donte is 3rd best DLEBRON SG oh wow hurry tell Boston to give us Jaylen or Tatum for him before he slides down to #4 in the league. These highly detailed stats would serve better to compare stars with equal amounts of gravity and defensive responsibility while leaving outliers like Donte out of discussion- otherwise we should start making the case that Donte was snubbed by All Star voting this year.

1st, D-LEBRON is strictly for the defensive side of the ball, ie. the argument that was being made. 2nd, that's not how these statistics should be used, or how I'm using them. I literally don't know why you're continuing. You're making a legitimate mockery of yourself. LEBRON actually incorporates synergy player roles into their models to differentiate one guy from another. It's also worth noting that player roles don't actually make a substantial difference on the other end of the floor. You're mocking a statistic you haven't even bothered to do ANY research on while I'm poking leaky hole after leaky hole in your argument. You're standing there with an empty bag and still going.

[JimmyTheKid]

I hate the Donte slander because I really like him as a player and dude. But, yes, he is most definitely, to use a baseball term, replacement level. On some nights he's our 4th best player, other nights, 9th best. And everywhere in between. Before the "OMGZ PPGZ ARRENT EVERYATHINGGGG" brigade jumps down my throat, I could care less about PPGZZ. Its about consistency on both sides of the ball. And its why I don't think its outlandish to suggest that Jeff Teague, given the same amount of minutes as Donte with this group, could give you equal or better production. And I say that without having seen Jeff Teague play more than a handful of games the last few years.

Well, you used a baseball term that you don't understand, so there's that. The admittance that you've seen Jeff Teague play a handful of games over "the last few years" also provides quite a bit of context in the lack of knowledge you have on the matter.

The standard for "replacement level" in Basketball is a VORP of -2.

Your posts tend to suggest that you only care about advanced stats. I question how much of you've seen of Jeff Teague, or any other player for that matter. Feels like you just throw numbers at people as some sort of proof or truth. The problem with that is obviously context. "Fit" is huge for role players in the NBA. A player's skill set has to compliment the skill sets of his teammates, or it doesn't work. I'm not going to get too much into this because I like everything Donte brings to the floor, and there is no possible way, outside of giving Jeff Teague 27 minutes a game in Donte's role, to determine who is "right or "wrong" here. And thats not happening because Teague will be sharing guard minutes, not inheriting Donte's.

[WRau1]

This is why advanced stat guys are so confused when a team with the right kinds of role players (defenders that can hit open shots) kicks our #ss in the playoffs every year while the Dontes of the world sit on the bench watching. You aren't going to surprise a team in a playoff series by dribbling straight into a crowd or by hustling around so yeah your advanced stats that try to measure regular season intangibles, which is cool, are out the window.

Also, let me add that if Bud stops letting Brook stay underneath you're in for a rude awakening on some of these amazing defensive stats. Donte isn't a stopper, he's not going to stop Harden or Kyrie even worse than he couldn't stop an Clipper.. and he also isn't going to keep up in scoring with any of them so it's honesty tough to see what his level of usefulness will even be in the playoffs unless he gets on fire from 3.

1) Donte hits 42.1% of his wide open threes, plays on the other end of the floor, and you insist he's not the "right kind of roleplayer." Makes zero sense.
2) Advanced stats don't measure regular season intangibles. I don't think you know what the definition of that word is.
3) These metrics make an attempt to isolate player performance which makes them independent of Brook Lopez, so not just "advanced stats guys," people who just know more than you and understand what they speak about.
4) You don't understand any of these advanced numbers, what they mean, how they're calculated, what the purpose of them is, yet you disregard them anyway. This is the opposite of someone who carries an informed opinion.
5) Teams pay "advanced stat guys" to create these type of metrics and models in order to help their ball clubs in 2021. Are you being paid because of your in depth analysis with "dribbling straight into a crowd and hustling?" I think not. Perhaps when a number of metrics agree on something, it's worth taking note of instead of making a baseless choice in calling them "fake news."

Because half of these were probably created to prove ideas such as Lebron is better for winning games than Kobe or Westbrook despite having less points per game - and I believe that's true in itself. However, it's measuring him as the main player on the team with the most gravity and most responsibility which the opposite is true for Donte. Example, Lebron had the most attention from opposing defenses and probably the least amount of help on D since he's one of the best. Donte on the other hand gets the least amount of attention on offense and probably gets the most help since he's undersized at his position. Universally applying these stats becomes distorted and you get data manipulation that people can cherry pick like Donte is 3rd best DLEBRON SG oh wow hurry tell Boston to give us Jaylen or Tatum for him before he slides down to #4 in the league. These highly detailed stats would serve better to compare stars with equal amounts of gravity and defensive responsibility while leaving outliers like Donte out of discussion- otherwise we should start making the case that Donte was snubbed by All Star voting this year.

[skones]

Your posts tend to suggest that you only care about advanced stats. I question how much of you've seen of Jeff Teague, or any other player for that matter. Feels like you just throw numbers at people as some sort of proof or truth. The problem with that is obviously context. "Fit" is huge for role players in the NBA. A player's skill set has to compliment the skill sets of his teammates, or it doesn't work. I'm not going to get too much into this because I like everything Donte brings to the floor, and there is no possible way, outside of giving Jeff Teague 27 minutes a game in Donte's role, to determine who is "right or "wrong" here. And thats not happening because Teague will be sharing guard minutes, not inheriting Donte's.

I certainly don't only care about advanced stats, and that's why I've continually said that Forbes has a circumstantial role on this team and represents value to this club because of a single elite skill all season long. What I do think, is that when a number of quantifiable measures point to the same thing over and over and over again, it's moronic to brush that evidence aside. Observations can be questioned and argued with. Math cannot be. The result is the result. Because of that, they become a tangible thing to point to in arguments. They're stronger than, "Donte flew by a shooter in crunch time one time" and letting that cloud the overall perception. Isolated mistakes that are louder than others ARE NOT representative of sample. There's a larger body of work.

Everyone wants shooters around Giannis. Everyone sees Jeff Teague is shooting 46.4% from distance. What they don't see is that that number is booned by 64% since the beginning of March, or that it's coming on a far lower volume than you want shooters to shoot in todays NBA. Teague has never been known for his defense and has consistently been a negative contributor to that end of the floor throughout his career. What Teague doesn't do is make a lot of dumb decisions with the ball in his hands. He protects it. Offensively Jeff Teague is at his best when he's probing the lane, which again, along with the shooting, offers a fit question when Giannis is on the floor. He was a complete mixed bag in Boston this year.

[FlagsFlyForever]

Saying that DDV isn't stopping Kyrie or Harden to prove that he isn't a good defender is absolutely absurd. No one in the league is stopping those two from doing whatever they want.

"Hey Eric, somebody just said nobody can stop Kyrie in the playoffs."

[-Jragon-]

Nice, so why scout players, have 1 on 1 workouts or combines..apparently all we need is some stat manipulation so let's all draft based on that.

[-Jragon-]

What's his DLEBRON stats rank in the postseason 640th? I hope you're right

17th amongst SGs who have played more than 100 minutes over the course of the last three seasons. That should tell you something because no one here thinks he played well in the bubble or in the playoffs, yet there he is, positively contributing to the team's defense.

Just go ahead and use a gif next time. I've included it below. Bookmark it or save it for use. Your choice.

Spoiler:

17th? Yet only 16 teams make the playoffs.. count it out yet?

[skones]

What's his DLEBRON stats rank in the postseason 640th? I hope you're right

17th amongst SGs who have played more than 100 minutes over the course of the last three seasons. That should tell you something because no one here thinks he played well in the bubble or in the playoffs, yet there he is, positively contributing to the team's defense.

Just go ahead and use a gif next time. I've included it below. Bookmark it or save it for use. Your choice.

Spoiler:

17th? Yet only 16 teams make the playoffs.. count it out yet?

48 teams have made the playoffs over that span. Have you?

Boy, this just isn't going well for you.

[Isocleas2]

Brian:
Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you stop talking for a while?

Ron:
Yeah, sit the next couple plays out, if you know what I mean.

[CharityStripe34]

Grabbing Teague on the cheap is a fine move. Some veteran, actual PG play. This will relieve Donte of having to do PG duties at least.

Problem is, the coach is allergic to having a lead G actually play lead G type of ball in the 4th quarter.

Is he, or does the roster(/construction) lead to other players handling the rock? IE Giannis & Khris command the ball as playmaking scorers.

Jrue should be the primary ball handler. Period. He showed as much in the Clippers game when he was clearly the best player for the Bucks on that night.

Sent from my LM-K500 using RealGM mobile app

[-Jragon-]

17th amongst SGs who have played more than 100 minutes over the course of the last three seasons. That should tell you something because no one here thinks he played well in the bubble or in the playoffs, yet there he is, positively contributing to the team's defense.

Just go ahead and use a gif next time. I've included it below. Bookmark it or save it for use. Your choice.

Spoiler:

17th? Yet only 16 teams make the playoffs.. count it out yet?

48 teams have made the playoffs over that span. Have you?

Boy, this just isn't going well for you.

I agree with the premise of advanced stats that show how players can impact the game outside of points per game but universal application and ignoring outliers is irresponsible.