Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - Joe Johnson workout, pg 97

[TroyD92]

After getting rid of guys like Jabari and Thon, and then lesser players like the John Henson's and Delly/Telly's of the world...

After saying goodbye to the invisible man we still had the DJ's to hate on and complain about.

And yet when they disappeared, I was actually wondering, what player is left that this forum is going to vehemently disagree about.

Never thought it would be DDV.

If he's the most controversial player on the team, Horst isn't doing terrible. (his managing of assets is less than desired but DDV isn't bad if people are upset he's the 4th-6th best best player).

Is it bad if he's the only one left to talk about? Pretending horst hasnt done a bad job is a bit much.

You don't have to pretend because Horst hasn't done a bad job.

Team has zero assets left. How hasnt he done a bad job?

[LuessiT]

In theory Bucks can sign two vets and still stay under the tax line close to 300K. What we don't know is which of Jrue's bonuses are likely. Horst probably knows this better. My guess is that we end up with 14 players to keep 750K for a likely Holiday bonus. Stretching Kurucs could even become an option to create a little more room under the tax. There should be no mistake with that since Bucks will be deep in the tax for the next 3-4 years with Jrue/Midds/Giannis locked in max/close to max/supermax deals.

Pretty sure this isn't possible. His salary would apply fully this year, you could only stretch future years (which would be pointless since he has a PO).

[slos]

In theory Bucks can sign two vets and still stay under the tax line close to 300K. What we don't know is which of Jrue's bonuses are likely. Horst probably knows this better. My guess is that we end up with 14 players to keep 750K for a likely Holiday bonus. Stretching Kurucs could even become an option to create a little more room under the tax. There should be no mistake with that since Bucks will be deep in the tax for the next 3-4 years with Jrue/Midds/Giannis locked in max/close to max/supermax deals.

Pretty sure this isn't possible. His salary would apply fully this year, you could only stretch future years (which would be pointless since he has a PO).

You are probably right. Having kept Kurucs money makes me think that we are OK with Jrue's un/likely bonuses.

[fam3381]

In theory Bucks can sign two vets and still stay under the tax line close to 300K. What we don't know is which of Jrue's bonuses are likely. Horst probably knows this better. My guess is that we end up with 14 players to keep 750K for a likely Holiday bonus. Stretching Kurucs could even become an option to create a little more room under the tax. There should be no mistake with that since Bucks will be deep in the tax for the next 3-4 years with Jrue/Midds/Giannis locked in max/close to max/supermax deals.

Pretty sure this isn't possible. His salary would apply fully this year, you could only stretch future years (which would be pointless since he has a PO).

Kurucs has a team option but you're right that the net/net is that there's no cap/tax benefit to waiving him since his salary wouldn't be stretchable.

Returning to some of the earlier discussion, there's also no compelling reason to convert Diakite since essentially you'd just be using a roster spot and taking a cap hit for a guy who a) you already have b) doesn't count against the cap currently and c) would only be a RFA this summer anyway. Two-ways being playoff eligible this year really reduces the incentive to convert them, so the only rationale I can think of would be if you expected some other team to pursue him as an RFA this summer and think he'd accept a "two year" minimum deal through next season right now (in which case you are just kicking the can down the road a year). Given Diakite's age and the fact that he probably won't play much the rest of the year, I doubt there would be a real market for him as an RFA so hopefully you could just get him on a 2-year minimum deal in the summer.

[RogerMurdock]

I don't believe Kurucs exists. Like even as a physical entity.

[crowhead76]

Jrue contract incentives

2021 Player Option
$4.7 million likely/unlikely Incentives (@BobbyMarks)
$510K likely for playing in 66 games [reg/post], playing 2,075 minutes
$255K likely for playing in 67 gamess [reg/post], averaging 7.3 AST and 3.15 REB
$100k likely All-Defensive 2nd-Team [triggered 2018]
TBD All-Star
TBD makes Postseason
TBD statistical bonus
TBD All-NBA

from Spotrac

[ShootingtheJ]

Is it bad if he's the only one left to talk about? Pretending horst hasnt done a bad job is a bit much.

You don't have to pretend because Horst hasn't done a bad job.

Team has zero assets left. How hasnt he done a bad job?

The team has tons of assets, including the greatest asset in the game, Giannis.

What we don't have is many tradeable draft picks, but that's the case with all the contenders.

Did the team make a mistake not adding a defensive 3rd guard? I think so. Despite that, we're still a contender.

[thonnisbeastley]

Donte's advanced defensive stats have been inflated by playing for (one of)the best defensive team(s) in the NBA over the last 2 seasons. Before Brook dropped off, he was usually the 4th/5th best defender on the floor with Bledsoe, Middleton, Giannis, and Brook. This season Jrue guards the best offensive guard on the opposing team. Donte is a great all around player but pointing to a bunch of advanced defensive metrics, most of which take the overall team performance into account doesn't mean as much as some of you think. He's a good enough player to start on our team but he's definitely better suited as a 6th man/3rd guard for us. He's a middle of the pack SG in this league, somewhere around #15. Probably the most overrated player on this board by a long shot.

No, that's not how they work. Many of them take steps to isolate the player from team performance. They're imperfect, but stating that they take overall team performance into account as if that drastically skews a players overall contribution is inaccurate. In fact, what they try to do is take the baseline performance level of a team, assume that each player contributes equally, and then begin working from there. BPM one of the more basic metrics, which serves as a reference point for many others, literally measures these guys relative to the players they're on the court with, meaning if one player is making dramatic contributions on the defensive end, the other player is more likely to be hurt by it than helped.

He also had the same great advanced stats last year as strictly a bench player. The idea that the starting lineup is carrying him is a laughable premise.

His advanced stats were better last year as the 6th man. But I wasn't making the point that he is completely carried by the starters. Just that that has an effect on some of those advanced metrics that take team play in to account. I don't really think that 'playing for the top defensive team in the league has an effect on your advanced defensive metrics' is a laughable premise. Considering we were the top defensive team last season and his advanced stats were better last season compared to this, when we are no longer the best defensive team in the league.

[coolhandluke121]

Returning to some of the earlier discussion, there's also no compelling reason to convert Diakite since essentially you'd just be using a roster spot and taking a cap hit for a guy who a) you already have b) doesn't count against the cap currently and c) would only be a RFA this summer anyway. Two-ways being playoff eligible this year really reduces the incentive to convert them, so the only rationale I can think of would be if you expected some other team to pursue him as an RFA this summer and think he'd accept a "two year" minimum deal through next season right now (in which case you are just kicking the can down the road a year). Given Diakite's age and the fact that he probably won't play much the rest of the year, I doubt there would be a real market for him as an RFA so hopefully you could just get him on a 2-year minimum deal in the summer.

I usually agree, but it wouldn't take much for him to get a little more than the minimum. If PJ stays hurt and Brook continues to, um, "labor" on defense (that's putting it gently), then Diakite might play. And aren't the Bucks severely restricted in what offers they can match for Merrill, Nwora, and Diakite because of their cap situation? Even though I generally think the Diakite hype is completely overblown, I like him and would feel pretty good about locking him up now. Assuming Jrue's unknown incentives aren't a cap issue, I am pretty confident they can fit 3 guys under the tax threshold if Diakite is one of them and they time it right.

[WRau1]

Is it bad if he's the only one left to talk about? Pretending horst hasnt done a bad job is a bit much.

You don't have to pretend because Horst hasn't done a bad job.

Team has zero assets left. How hasnt he done a bad job?

This entire team is easily tradeable if need be. You might be confusing draft picks with assets.

[ABucksFan]

If things go south this year for us and BOS. Bud gets canned and Stevens, would you open to taking on Stevens as HC?

[LuessiT]

Returning to some of the earlier discussion, there's also no compelling reason to convert Diakite since essentially you'd just be using a roster spot and taking a cap hit for a guy who a) you already have b) doesn't count against the cap currently and c) would only be a RFA this summer anyway. Two-ways being playoff eligible this year really reduces the incentive to convert them, so the only rationale I can think of would be if you expected some other team to pursue him as an RFA this summer and think he'd accept a "two year" minimum deal through next season right now (in which case you are just kicking the can down the road a year). Given Diakite's age and the fact that he probably won't play much the rest of the year, I doubt there would be a real market for him as an RFA so hopefully you could just get him on a 2-year minimum deal in the summer.

I usually agree, but it wouldn't take much for him to get a little more than the minimum. If PJ stays hurt and Brook continues to, um, "labor" on defense (that's putting it gently), then Diakite might play. And aren't the Bucks severely restricted in what offers they can match for Merrill, Nwora, and Diakite because of their cap situation? Even though I generally think the Diakite hype is completely overblown, I like him and would feel pretty good about locking him up now. Assuming Jrue's unknown incentives aren't a cap issue, I am pretty confident they can fit 3 guys under the tax threshold if Diakite is one of them and they time it right.

Generally I think it's much more likely that Diakite gets a big offer (more than the min) next year rather than this year. So from my PoV the best approach would be to offer him a 2 year min deal in the summer and let him walk if he gets more than that. If he were to sign that, that would give us full bird rights the next time he hits FA and if he wouldn't, tough luck but there are other players out there.

[coolhandluke121]

Generally I think it's much more likely that Diakite gets a big offer (more than the min) next year rather than this year. So from my PoV the best approach would be to offer him a 2 year min deal in the summer and let him walk if he gets more than that. If he were to sign that, that would give us full bird rights the next time he hits FA and if he wouldn't, tough luck but there are other players out there.

That's a good point but is there any reason they can't offer him a 2.33 year minimum deal now? Is it limited to 2 years at most?

[Matches Malone]

Wonder what the players decided to coach themselves on... Oh Bud, ya stubborn dingus.

Read on Twitter

[LuessiT]

Generally I think it's much more likely that Diakite gets a big offer (more than the min) next year rather than this year. So from my PoV the best approach would be to offer him a 2 year min deal in the summer and let him walk if he gets more than that. If he were to sign that, that would give us full bird rights the next time he hits FA and if he wouldn't, tough luck but there are other players out there.

That's a good point but is there any reason they can't offer him a 2.33 year minimum deal now? Is it limited to 2 years at most?

The minimum exception only goes for up to 2 years. Would need part of the MLE, tax-MLE, cap space or bird rights to offer a longer deal.

[LuessiT]

I mean if Diakite doesn't want, bring in Cheick. He's like a year older and posted similar numbers in the D-League right after being drafted.

[emunney]

I don't believe Kurucs exists. Like even as a physical entity.

Then you've fallen for the greatest trick the Kurucs ever pulled.

[M-C-G]

Is it bad if he's the only one left to talk about? Pretending horst hasnt done a bad job is a bit much.

You don't have to pretend because Horst hasn't done a bad job.

Team has zero assets left. How hasnt he done a bad job?

If we win a championship, maybe even make it to the finals, then I don't care. A first round pick for a 60 win team is just a few spots higher than you can buy outright. Plus almost everyone could return to make another run at it.

We lose in the first round, Jrue doesn't extend, then yeah, he swung for the moon and missed.

[emunney]

Returning to some of the earlier discussion, there's also no compelling reason to convert Diakite since essentially you'd just be using a roster spot and taking a cap hit for a guy who a) you already have b) doesn't count against the cap currently and c) would only be a RFA this summer anyway. Two-ways being playoff eligible this year really reduces the incentive to convert them, so the only rationale I can think of would be if you expected some other team to pursue him as an RFA this summer and think he'd accept a "two year" minimum deal through next season right now (in which case you are just kicking the can down the road a year). Given Diakite's age and the fact that he probably won't play much the rest of the year, I doubt there would be a real market for him as an RFA so hopefully you could just get him on a 2-year minimum deal in the summer.

I usually agree, but it wouldn't take much for him to get a little more than the minimum. If PJ stays hurt and Brook continues to, um, "labor" on defense (that's putting it gently), then Diakite might play. And aren't the Bucks severely restricted in what offers they can match for Merrill, Nwora, and Diakite because of their cap situation? Even though I generally think the Diakite hype is completely overblown, I like him and would feel pretty good about locking him up now. Assuming Jrue's unknown incentives aren't a cap issue, I am pretty confident they can fit 3 guys under the tax threshold if Diakite is one of them and they time it right.

Generally I think it's much more likely that Diakite gets a big offer (more than the min) next year rather than this year. So from my PoV the best approach would be to offer him a 2 year min deal in the summer and let him walk if he gets more than that. If he were to sign that, that would give us full bird rights the next time he hits FA and if he wouldn't, tough luck but there are other players out there.

If we maintain status quo into the summer, I'd offer him a 3 year deal with a 3rd year PO at the non-Bird rate (120% of minimum). That's a fair offer with minimal risk but some incentive for him, and if he opts out after year 2 we have full bird rights and he's RFA.

[LuessiT]

If we maintain status quo into the summer, I'd offer him a 3 year deal with a 3rd year PO at the non-Bird rate (120% of minimum). That's a fair offer with minimal risk but some incentive for him, and if he opts out after year 2 we have full bird rights and he's RFA.

Right I forgot that we can offer more than 2 years with that without dipping into an exception.

Feel like we then should try to leverage our position to maybe get at least 3 cheap years out of him.