The Official Cunningham vs Suggs Thread #Tank4Either

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Instead of Bouknight in the 1sr round, what about Scottie Lewis in the 2nd round?

I feel like his legs drift on this shot instead of going up and down, I think it could be fixed in the 905.

He did shoot 80% FT and 36% from 3 during his freshman season.

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I think he's a good buy low candidate. The defense is there but the offense is inconsistent due his form.

So if the Raptors ended up with Jalen Johnson, Scottie Lewis and Jay Huff, I'd be cool with that haul.

Well if Mathurin is around the 2nd picks I might take him instead.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I can see him being a Donovan Mitchell type guard.

On talent he has better ability heading into the league, but imo character-wise he's reminiscent of Dion Waiters. I doubt he'd pass the Raptors' interviews.

What makes you say that?

Just from interviews. I get the sense that he's emotionally immature, and I had that same feeling reading up on Dion Waiters before that draft.

[ATLTimekeeper]

My read on the draft the past few years is that GMs after the next unicorn or jumbo creator probably regret passing on the elite 6'5 scoring guards.

Off the top of my head the following 6'5 guys were recently drafted way too late given how valuable they are now:

Jamal Murray (7) - Bender, Dunn, Hield taken before him.
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (11) - Carter Jr., Mo Bamba, Kevin Knox taken before him.
Tyler Herro (13) - Jaxson Hayes, Hachimura, PJ Washington taken before him.
Donovan Mitchell (13) - Josh Jackson, Zach Collins, Jonathan Isaac taken before him.
Devin Booker (13) - Trey Lyles, Justice Winslow, Frank Kaminsky taken before him.

Pass on Bouknight at your own peril.

Most of those guys weren't passed on per se, they just weren't showcased as lead high usage guards in college or developed quickly in the NBA. The only exception is Murray, who was knocked for his athleticism. This isn't a good take or a validation for Bouknight. Bad picks in the lotto are consistent year to year, and archetype has little to do with it.

Teams do make mistakes trying to solve the problems with their current team, or reaching for upside without properly accounting for downside. They're often trying to sell to fans the cost of losing is the reward of this player. And then there's just the adherence to mocks or the fear of going too off board.

[Kevin Willis]

Can Kai Jones or Barnes be a difference maker as a big for this team next year or more a project?

[HeadtopChunes]

Can Kai Jones or Barnes be a difference maker as a big for this team next year or more a project?

Barnes yes, Kai no. Kai is a couple of years away (he's mostly flashes rn, wasn't really a great NCAA player)

[VanWest82]

I’m convinced that Suggs is meant to be a Raptor. He fits us too perfectly. Of course this means it won’t happen but if it did we’d be back to ECF within two years. Fingers crossed.

[Kreamy]

I’m convinced that Suggs is meant to be a Raptor. He fits us too perfectly. Of course this means it won’t happen but if it did we’d be back to ECF within two years. Fingers crossed.

Exactly this. One of the best defenders and all around players in the draft. High IQ and has 'it'. Would be a fantastic addition and fit next to FVV, OG, Siakam and whomever we add at C.

[VanWest82]

I’m convinced that Suggs is meant to be a Raptor. He fits us too perfectly. Of course this means it won’t happen but if it did we’d be back to ECF within two years. Fingers crossed.

Exactly this. One of the best defenders and all around players in the draft. High IQ and has 'it'. Would be a fantastic addition and fit next to FVV, OG, Siakam and whomever we add at C.

I’m trying so hard not to get too attached. Some of these other kids would be fine additions but Suggs fits the play style, the culture, he has star quality, he’s from the Midwest. It’s too perfect.

[Dalek]

My read on the draft the past few years is that GMs after the next unicorn or jumbo creator probably regret passing on the elite 6'5 scoring guards.

Off the top of my head the following 6'5 guys were recently drafted way too late given how valuable they are now:

Jamal Murray (7) - Bender, Dunn, Hield taken before him.
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (11) - Carter Jr., Mo Bamba, Kevin Knox taken before him.
Tyler Herro (13) - Jaxson Hayes, Hachimura, PJ Washington taken before him.
Donovan Mitchell (13) - Josh Jackson, Zach Collins, Jonathan Isaac taken before him.
Devin Booker (13) - Trey Lyles, Justice Winslow, Frank Kaminsky taken before him.

Pass on Bouknight at your own peril.

Most of those guys weren't passed on per se, they just weren't showcased as lead high usage guards in college or developed quickly in the NBA. The only exception is Murray, who was knocked for his athleticism. This isn't a good take or a validation for Bouknight. Bad picks in the lotto are consistent year to year, and archetype has little to do with it.

Teams do make mistakes trying to solve the problems with their current team, or reaching for upside without properly accounting for downside. They're often trying to sell to fans the cost of losing is the reward of this player. And then there's just the adherence to mocks or the fear of going too off board.

I think the main point is people don't see the obvious when it is in front of their faces. These guys all had the mental make up, the bag of tricks to self create, and good athleticism to succeed. I think their size played a role as teams have shifted away from traditional SGs in favor of big wings like Tatum, Paul George or Ingram. It is just sexy to have that kind of size at the wings, but people forget how rare it is to succeed there.

I expect people to pass on Bouknight because this draft is heavy on athletic 6'6 or bigger players. I just think the same mistake happens year to year.

Last year I was shocked that Maxey and Hampton fell so far. We will see these guys come up in a season. Unfortunately getting drafted late means you don't get playing time on great teams.

[Mark_83]

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Instead of Bouknight in the 1sr round, what about Scottie Lewis in the 2nd round?

I feel like his legs drift on this shot instead of going up and down, I think it could be fixed in the 905.

He did shoot 80% FT and 36% from 3 during his freshman season.

Watch on YouTube

I think he's a good buy low candidate. The defense is there but the offense is inconsistent due his form.

So if the Raptors ended up with Jalen Johnson, Scottie Lewis and Jay Huff, I'd be cool with that haul.

Well if Mathurin is around the 2nd picks I might take him instead.

I've been a big Lewis supporter since the beginning of the year. He hasn't quite taken the skills step forward this year I was expecting but he might be one of the top 2 or 3 perimeter defenders in this draft. Depending on whose there at our pick I'd be happy with Lewis.

I am hoping we can get a mid 1st though as I really want Isaiah Jackson. He's really raw but man can that guy rebound and block the ball. He's a freshman too, so we have a lot of time to teach him to shoot the three. He's got a decent 15 footer right now.

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[Kevin Willis]

Can Kai Jones or Barnes be a difference maker as a big for this team next year or more a project?

Barnes yes, Kai no. Kai is a couple of years away (he's mostly flashes rn, wasn't really a great NCAA player)

Which is the better overall prospect? A point forward that can defend the perimeter or an athletic PnR big that can defend the paint?

[ItsDanger]

Our core is 23-27 basically. Jones/Barnes are projects that need 2 years minimum. Not ideal to be taking them.

[Dalek]

Our core is 23-27 basically. Jones/Barnes are projects that need 2 years minimum. Not ideal to be taking them.

I think that avoiding projects is a dangerous way to play the draft. People probably felt that way about Giannis during his draft year. To me, Kai Jones is a very unusual player for his size given that he moves so well. I felt the same with Poku last year. Those are good risky gambles to take. I am not impressed by Barnes in anyway. Good size but can't shoot and I think he has a high dribble. He is basically a taller RHJ/Stanley Johnson to me.

I think Toronto has to go into this thinking to get the BPA and not worry about fitting with the core. How likely is the rookie coming in going to start? Outside of NBA ready guys like Cade or Suggs I can't see it happening. Mobley is like 210 lbs at best right now. They would be risking injury starting him. The others all need time to get adjusted to the NBA and the Raptors' style of play.

I think if they want the easiest plug and play guy outside the top five, then you draft Moses Moody. He perfectly fits Toronto's MO, but his upside is limited.

[HeadtopChunes]

Can Kai Jones or Barnes be a difference maker as a big for this team next year or more a project?

Barnes yes, Kai no. Kai is a couple of years away (he's mostly flashes rn, wasn't really a great NCAA player)

Which is the better overall prospect? A point forward that can defend the perimeter or an athletic PnR big that can defend the paint?

Barnes description is fine although he really is an awful scorer which is why I don't like his fit here

Kai isn't a standard Jaxson Hayes type, he's capable of very fluid perimeter movement and jumping high on blocks yes but you aren't drafting him for his defense (he was a bad defender in college expecting him to be good vs Pros anytime soon is prob misguided)

Kai is interesting for his offense, he's got the tools for the rim runner component, but he's also flashed being a fluid driver (even some live dribble dimes) and shot-making both from midrange and from 3.

It all flashes though which is why he's such a gamble especially since he is a year older than most lottery prospects

[DG88]

Barnes yes, Kai no. Kai is a couple of years away (he's mostly flashes rn, wasn't really a great NCAA player)

Which is the better overall prospect? A point forward that can defend the perimeter or an athletic PnR big that can defend the paint?

Barnes description is fine although he really is an awful scorer which is why I don't like his fit here

Kai isn't a standard Jaxson Hayes type, he's capable of very fluid perimeter movement and jumping high on blocks yes but you aren't drafting him for his defense (he was a bad defender in college expecting him to be good vs Pros anytime soon is prob misguided)

Kai is interesting for his offense, he's got the tools for the rim runner component, but he's also flashed being a fluid driver (even some live dribble dimes) and shot-making both from midrange and from 3.

It all flashes though which is why he's such a gamble especially since he is a year older than most lottery prospects

I'd like to get your opinion HeadtopChunes

Who would you look to select with the 7th pick or if we got a top 3 pick for the Raptors, based on what you've seen while watching these prospects?

[HeadtopChunes]

Which is the better overall prospect? A point forward that can defend the perimeter or an athletic PnR big that can defend the paint?

Barnes description is fine although he really is an awful scorer which is why I don't like his fit here

Kai isn't a standard Jaxson Hayes type, he's capable of very fluid perimeter movement and jumping high on blocks yes but you aren't drafting him for his defense (he was a bad defender in college expecting him to be good vs Pros anytime soon is prob misguided)

Kai is interesting for his offense, he's got the tools for the rim runner component, but he's also flashed being a fluid driver (even some live dribble dimes) and shot-making both from midrange and from 3.

It all flashes though which is why he's such a gamble especially since he is a year older than most lottery prospects

I'd like to get your opinion HeadtopChunes

Who would you look to select with the 7th pick or if we got a top 3 pick for the Raptors, based on what you've seen while watching these prospects?

Top 3 is pretty easy for me, I think the general consensus of Cade, Mobley then Suggs is correct would just go in that order.

I'm still sorting out everyone not them though so I don't have a rock-solid opinion yet, right now would lean towards this group very loosely in this order assuming the top 3 and the Ignite boys are gone.

- Jalen Johnson
- Keon Johnson
- Jaden Springer
- Moses Moody
- Ziaire Williams

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https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/262124/Duke-Freshman-DJ-Steward-Enters-Draft-Plans-To-Hire-Agent

Projected 2nd rounder at best. Maybe he's prepared to play pro somewhere else?

[BoyzNTheHood]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/262124/Duke-Freshman-DJ-Steward-Enters-Draft-Plans-To-Hire-Agent

Projected 2nd rounder at best. Maybe he's prepared to play pro somewhere else?

He probably received bad advice from someone. Either that or he has no choice but to declare similar to DeMar in 2009.

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https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/262124/Duke-Freshman-DJ-Steward-Enters-Draft-Plans-To-Hire-Agent

Projected 2nd rounder at best. Maybe he's prepared to play pro somewhere else?

He probably received bad advice from someone. Either that or he has no choice but to declare similar to DeMar in 2009.

He went to middle school with AJ Griffin.... hello 905.

[PhilBlackson]

I’m convinced that Suggs is meant to be a Raptor. He fits us too perfectly. Of course this means it won’t happen but if it did we’d be back to ECF within two years. Fingers crossed.

Yeah said this a couple times in this thread because from his style of play, his intangibles on and off court and just overall bball IQ, he was about as "ideal" of a "cultural" fit as there is....but that was also before we just traded for Trent.

Ahead of time I know Suggs projects to be a much better facilitator for others but the rest of his game (not to mention measurables) are quite similar to Trent's. I think Suggs would however replace some of the leadership and intangibles of Kyle. Question is does simply replacing Lowry (even a better version) make us that much better than today?? We still have other obvious needs.

For that reason I'd say Cade or Mobley would be more ideal fits with Mobley actually filling a glaring hole. Both guys still have great intangibles and personalities that would fit the existing "core'.

With Cade you just can't go wrong because he's a 6'8 point forward that will help the rebounding, defensive versatility even more so and also takeover in clutch moments as well as the ballhandling which allows Fred to be his most effective as a spot shooter. With Mobley, it's the obvious, we having a gigantic hole in the post which he immediately completely changes as he projects to be an outstanding defender and of course good rebounder. He also has some shooting touch that will open the lanes back up for Pascal and now Trent to create. His natural fit with the overall lineup may actually be the easiest.

The only shortcoming I see and why I'd favor Cade is someone to takeover in big moments in crunch time in the Playoffs. Seen Cade do it, Mobley not sure bit imo right now projects as an elite 2nd option offensively but a top defensive anchor in the league so it's a tough call but I favor big playmakers because those are the players that win you series and big games.

All that said I'd kill for anyone in the top 5 and only pray this ever becomes a real discussion when the draft rolls around.