NBA MVP Discussion '20-'21, Part 2 (Poll created 21 March '21)

[Doctor MJ]

So, just forcing myself to make a list at the moment, my hypothetical ballot would be:

1. Nikola Jokic - Maybe just playing better than anyone else this season period, but after injuries to others, he's my clear guy for now.
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo - To me he's actually the other guy with a good case right now.
3. Rudy Gobert - Feels like there's some kind of agreement the basketball world has that he's only going to be considered for DPOY, but should be in the MVP discussion.
4. Kawhi Leonard - Very quietly still having a very, very good year.
5. Damian Lillard - Absolutely heroic what he's done in the clutch, but I'm afraid there's some luck to that.

Other guys:

Embiid & LeBron were on my list before injuries.

Harden - His negative impact to Houston pretty much DQs him for me this year, but I do understand why people are excited by what they see in Brooklyn.

i think harden is top 3 and if you take him out nets line up they werent winning as much with kyrie alone . Kyrie cant carry a franchise for a good amount of time. He wont win but hes had better year than Gobert.

Eh, for perspective:

Harden's only played 33 games in Brooklyn, and did serious negative damage to another franchise during the course of the year.
Gobert's played 49 games and has been extremely impactful on by far the best team of the regular season.

Anyone ranking Harden's year ahead of Gobert's, quite frankly, is going about things a bit backwards.

Namely: Seeing the Nets near the top of the standings, looking to anoint an MVP candidate from that team, and then ranking that player based on how good you think he is. Hence, if you think Harden > Gobert in general, with this thinking you end up with Harden ahead of Gobert in your MVP list.

To be clear, I've always ranked Harden ahead of Gobert as a player too, but he doesn't have a rational MVP case over Gobert this season.

[Ballerhogger]

So, just forcing myself to make a list at the moment, my hypothetical ballot would be:

1. Nikola Jokic - Maybe just playing better than anyone else this season period, but after injuries to others, he's my clear guy for now.
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo - To me he's actually the other guy with a good case right now.
3. Rudy Gobert - Feels like there's some kind of agreement the basketball world has that he's only going to be considered for DPOY, but should be in the MVP discussion.
4. Kawhi Leonard - Very quietly still having a very, very good year.
5. Damian Lillard - Absolutely heroic what he's done in the clutch, but I'm afraid there's some luck to that.

Other guys:

Embiid & LeBron were on my list before injuries.

Harden - His negative impact to Houston pretty much DQs him for me this year, but I do understand why people are excited by what they see in Brooklyn.

i think harden is top 3 and if you take him out nets line up they werent winning as much with kyrie alone . Kyrie cant carry a franchise for a good amount of time. He wont win but hes had better year than Gobert.

Eh, for perspective:

Harden's only played 33 games in Brooklyn, and did serious negative damage to another franchise during the course of the year.
Gobert's played 49 games and has been extremely impactful on by far the best team of the regular season.

Anyone ranking Harden's year ahead of Gobert's, quite frankly, is going about things a bit backwards.

Namely: Seeing the Nets near the top of the standings, looking to anoint an MVP candidate from that team, and then ranking that player based on how good you think he is. Hence, if you think Harden > Gobert in general, with this thinking you end up with Harden ahead of Gobert in your MVP list.

To be clear, I've always ranked Harden ahead of Gobert as a player too, but he doesn't have a rational MVP case over Gobert this season.

Offensively harden having a almost historic year but given the circumstances i can understand voting gobery over harden . It will be interesting to see where votes go this year and how much negative narrative harden actually has vs what fans think he has

[Doctor MJ]

i think harden is top 3 and if you take him out nets line up they werent winning as much with kyrie alone . Kyrie cant carry a franchise for a good amount of time. He wont win but hes had better year than Gobert.

Eh, for perspective:

Harden's only played 33 games in Brooklyn, and did serious negative damage to another franchise during the course of the year.
Gobert's played 49 games and has been extremely impactful on by far the best team of the regular season.

Anyone ranking Harden's year ahead of Gobert's, quite frankly, is going about things a bit backwards.

Namely: Seeing the Nets near the top of the standings, looking to anoint an MVP candidate from that team, and then ranking that player based on how good you think he is. Hence, if you think Harden > Gobert in general, with this thinking you end up with Harden ahead of Gobert in your MVP list.

To be clear, I've always ranked Harden ahead of Gobert as a player too, but he doesn't have a rational MVP case over Gobert this season.

Offensively harden having a almost historic year but given the circumstances i can understand voting gobery over harden . It will be interesting to see where votes go this year and how much negative narrative harden actually has vs what fans think he has

Well just to be clear:

Harden is...

5th in Offensive Win Shares.
6th in Offensive BPM.
5th in Offensive RPM.
5th in Offensive LEBRON.
10th in Raw On-Court ORtg among guys with >1500 minutes.

So what exactly do you mean by "historic"?

If what you mean is that you think that when you watch Harden you see the best offensive player you've ever witnessed, cool, but as much as Harden's having a great year in his offensive statistics, there's really no season long metric that elevates Harden as the clear cut best offensive player of the year, and I frankly wouldn't see him as even a serious candidate compared to guys like Jokic or Lillard.

[Ballerhogger]

Eh, for perspective:

Harden's only played 33 games in Brooklyn, and did serious negative damage to another franchise during the course of the year.
Gobert's played 49 games and has been extremely impactful on by far the best team of the regular season.

Anyone ranking Harden's year ahead of Gobert's, quite frankly, is going about things a bit backwards.

Namely: Seeing the Nets near the top of the standings, looking to anoint an MVP candidate from that team, and then ranking that player based on how good you think he is. Hence, if you think Harden > Gobert in general, with this thinking you end up with Harden ahead of Gobert in your MVP list.

To be clear, I've always ranked Harden ahead of Gobert as a player too, but he doesn't have a rational MVP case over Gobert this season.

Offensively harden having a almost historic year but given the circumstances i can understand voting gobery over harden . It will be interesting to see where votes go this year and how much negative narrative harden actually has vs what fans think he has

Well just to be clear:

Harden is...

5th in Offensive Win Shares.
6th in Offensive BPM.
5th in Offensive RPM.
5th in Offensive LEBRON.
10th in Raw On-Court ORtg among guys with >1500 minutes.

So what exactly do you mean by "historic"?

If what you mean is that you think that when you watch Harden you see the best offensive player you've ever witnessed, cool, but as much as Harden's having a great year in his offensive statistics, there's really no season long metric that elevates Harden as the clear cut best offensive player of the year, and I frankly wouldn't see him as even a serious candidate compared to guys like Jokic or Lillard.

The guy is almost averaging a triple double and has carried the load for the nets to be fair.. Kyrie and Kd have missed a bunch of time , 25 ppg 8 boards and 11 ast .

[Doctor MJ]

Offensively harden having a almost historic year but given the circumstances i can understand voting gobery over harden . It will be interesting to see where votes go this year and how much negative narrative harden actually has vs what fans think he has

Well just to be clear:

Harden is...

5th in Offensive Win Shares.
6th in Offensive BPM.
5th in Offensive RPM.
5th in Offensive LEBRON.
10th in Raw On-Court ORtg among guys with >1500 minutes.

So what exactly do you mean by "historic"?

If what you mean is that you think that when you watch Harden you see the best offensive player you've ever witnessed, cool, but as much as Harden's having a great year in his offensive statistics, there's really no season long metric that elevates Harden as the clear cut best offensive player of the year, and I frankly wouldn't see him as even a serious candidate compared to guys like Jokic or Lillard.

The guy is almost averaging a triple double and has carried the load for the nets to be fair.. Kyrie and Kd have missed a bunch of time , 25 ppg 8 boards and 11 ast .

And this is historic because?

Remember, I'm not saying Harden's not great, but this notion that Harden's having a historic year really doesn't seem justified to me. I don't see anything about his numbers that puts him clearly above everyone else, and everyone else has the advantage of actually trying to help the team they were on all year.

[ken6199]

“Trying to help his team” means:
Harden, that dude is a cancer. He was shooting his own basket for the first 10 games and verbally abusing his teammates and family on the court.
Kawhi, that guy is my top 5. Yes he sat out games but I call that good body management it’s beneficial to the post season. Look at the bigger picture folks!

[Colbinii]

Offensively harden having a almost historic year but given the circumstances i can understand voting gobery over harden . It will be interesting to see where votes go this year and how much negative narrative harden actually has vs what fans think he has

Well just to be clear:

Harden is...

5th in Offensive Win Shares.
6th in Offensive BPM.
5th in Offensive RPM.
5th in Offensive LEBRON.
10th in Raw On-Court ORtg among guys with >1500 minutes.

So what exactly do you mean by "historic"?

If what you mean is that you think that when you watch Harden you see the best offensive player you've ever witnessed, cool, but as much as Harden's having a great year in his offensive statistics, there's really no season long metric that elevates Harden as the clear cut best offensive player of the year, and I frankly wouldn't see him as even a serious candidate compared to guys like Jokic or Lillard.

The guy is almost averaging a triple double and has carried the load for the nets to be fair.. Kyrie and Kd have missed a bunch of time , 25 ppg 8 boards and 11 ast .

This isn't historic, or perhaps you are just not defining historic in the same sense as Doctor MJ (or myself) would. Doc posted a statistical profile of Harden which puts him outside of the top 3 in every popular advanced statistic. Nothing about his season is historic--it's a fantastic year and an MVP in a weak MVP season, but this season is anything other than a weak year.

1. Nikola Jokic - Joker is having the best offensive regular season for a center ever (post-merger).

2000 Shaquille O'Neal - 7.3 OBPM, 223.9 TS+ in 3163 minutes, 11.7 OWS
1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 6.8 OBPM, 345.3 TS+ in 3016 minutes, 11.9 OWS
2021 Nikola Jokic - 9.1 OBPM, 148.7 TS+ in 1711 minutes (ahead of O'Neal, behind Kareem), 8.4 OWS (ahead of both on a per-minute basis)
Who else is even close? Nobody.

2. Rudy Gobert - By far the best player on the best team. A big positive on offense and an all-time great defender and his impact is Off the Charts. Gobert's +16.7 On-court rating is rivaling Steph Curry on the 2015-2016 Warriors and trumping his numbers on the Golden State Globetrotters (+16.7 in 2015, +18.0 in 2016, +17.1 in 2017, +13.2 in 2018 and 2019).

When were the best two players in the league both Centers? 2003 with Shaq and Duncan? 1994 and 1995 with Robinson and Hakeem? 1981 with Moses and Kareem?

Gap

3. Giannis - Jrue has been phenomenal this year and I can't help but love Giannis off the court.
4. Luka Doncic - Has a injury riddled Mavericks team to a 27-21 record, next 5 best players are Hardaway, Richardson, Finney-Smith, Brunson and Kleber.

HM: Embiid (injury), LeBron (injury), Kawhi, Harden, Lillard

[Mickey8]

Jokic is disqualifying himself from the race, since the trade , you can't be the mvp candidate and not being scoring threat . Since the trade he hasn't been playing on mvp level , he's been like third or fourth best Denver's player. He just doesn't want it bad

[Jamaaliver]

Watch on YouTube

[Veselyfan]

Jokic is disqualifying himself from the race, since the trade , you can't be the mvp candidate and not being scoring threat . Since the trade he hasn't been playing on mvp level , he's been like third or fourth best Denver's player. He just doesn't want it bad

What ?

Jokic 16 assists tonight !

[Gatorade Sax]

Jokic is disqualifying himself from the race, since the trade , you can't be the mvp candidate and not being scoring threat . Since the trade he hasn't been playing on mvp level , he's been like third or fourth best Denver's player. He just doesn't want it bad

What ?

Jokic 16 assists tonight !

Just assuming that guy is trolling. Dominated the 2nd half with passing and assimilating a key piece like Gordon into the rotation..whilst trying not to drop any games in the process. But nah he’s out of the race because he is scoring a little less. Nice take.

[Mickey8]

It doesn't matter, Denver shouldn't have been down 18 points points to Orlando at the half time , and one of the reason for that was Jokic not being aggressive on the offense , he was averaging almost 38 points against Wendell Carter Jr this season , tonight he was refusing open shots , he was out rebounded a lot and outplayed by Carter in my opinion , I think this was another poor game by him since the trade , I don't care about 18 assists , when he's open he should look to score not to make bunch of dumb turnovers instead , its disappointing how he switches from being scoring juggernaut to not care all of the sudden and its been like that the last three season , being that talented as the scorer and deferring to Barton ,wasting his god giving talent He can managing being both scorer and facilitator and thats when Denver is the most dangerous team.

[HEKTOR]

It doesn't matter, Denver shouldn't have been down 18 points points to Orlando at the half time , and one of the reason for that was Jokic not being aggressive on the offense , he was averaging almost 38 points against Wendell Carter Jr this season , tonight he was refusing open shots , he was out rebounded a lot and outplayed by Carter in my opinion , I think this was another poor game by him since the trade , I don't care about 18 assists , when he's open he should look to score not to make bunch of dumb turnovers instead , its disappointing how he switches from being scoring juggernaut to not care all of the sudden and its been like that the last three season , being that talented as the scorer and deferring to Barton ,wasting his god giving talent He can managing being both as the scorer and facilitator and thats when Denver is the most dangerous team.

Jokic doesn't play for statistics, he plays for wins.

[Sgt Major]

Read on Twitter

[Mickey8]

It doesn't matter, Denver shouldn't have been down 18 points points to Orlando at the half time , and one of the reason for that was Jokic not being aggressive on the offense , he was averaging almost 38 points against Wendell Carter Jr this season , tonight he was refusing open shots , he was out rebounded a lot and outplayed by Carter in my opinion , I think this was another poor game by him since the trade , I don't care about 18 assists , when he's open he should look to score not to make bunch of dumb turnovers instead , its disappointing how he switches from being scoring juggernaut to not care all of the sudden and its been like that the last three season , being that talented as the scorer and deferring to Barton ,wasting his god giving talent He can managing being both as the scorer and facilitator and thats when Denver is the most dangerous team.

Jokic doesn't play for statistics, he plays for wins.

Well he wont ever win the refs over , playing passively , they are going to be worse and worse , if you are MVP candidate you dominate every night , plain and simple.

[DFan]

Read on Twitter

WOW!

[Doctor MJ]

Well just to be clear:

Harden is...

5th in Offensive Win Shares.
6th in Offensive BPM.
5th in Offensive RPM.
5th in Offensive LEBRON.
10th in Raw On-Court ORtg among guys with >1500 minutes.

So what exactly do you mean by "historic"?

If what you mean is that you think that when you watch Harden you see the best offensive player you've ever witnessed, cool, but as much as Harden's having a great year in his offensive statistics, there's really no season long metric that elevates Harden as the clear cut best offensive player of the year, and I frankly wouldn't see him as even a serious candidate compared to guys like Jokic or Lillard.

The guy is almost averaging a triple double and has carried the load for the nets to be fair.. Kyrie and Kd have missed a bunch of time , 25 ppg 8 boards and 11 ast .

This isn't historic, or perhaps you are just not defining historic in the same sense as Doctor MJ (or myself) would. Doc posted a statistical profile of Harden which puts him outside of the top 3 in every popular advanced statistic. Nothing about his season is historic--it's a fantastic year and an MVP in a weak MVP season, but this season is anything other than a weak year.

1. Nikola Jokic - Joker is having the best offensive regular season for a center ever (post-merger).

2000 Shaquille O'Neal - 7.3 OBPM, 223.9 TS+ in 3163 minutes, 11.7 OWS
1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 6.8 OBPM, 345.3 TS+ in 3016 minutes, 11.9 OWS
2021 Nikola Jokic - 9.1 OBPM, 148.7 TS+ in 1711 minutes (ahead of O'Neal, behind Kareem), 8.4 OWS (ahead of both on a per-minute basis)
Who else is even close? Nobody.

2. Rudy Gobert - By far the best player on the best team. A big positive on offense and an all-time great defender and his impact is Off the Charts. Gobert's +16.7 On-court rating is rivaling Steph Curry on the 2015-2016 Warriors and trumping his numbers on the Golden State Globetrotters (+16.7 in 2015, +18.0 in 2016, +17.1 in 2017, +13.2 in 2018 and 2019).

When were the best two players in the league both Centers? 2003 with Shaq and Duncan? 1994 and 1995 with Robinson and Hakeem? 1981 with Moses and Kareem?

Gap

3. Giannis - Jrue has been phenomenal this year and I can't help but love Giannis off the court.
4. Luka Doncic - Has a injury riddled Mavericks team to a 27-21 record, next 5 best players are Hardaway, Richardson, Finney-Smith, Brunson and Kleber.

HM: Embiid (injury), LeBron (injury), Kawhi, Harden, Lillard

I like you juxtaposing Jokic relative to other centers.

The other dimension is just as impressive though:

This is the year with the most effective offense in the history of the game (for good or for ill),
coming on the heels of literally decades of the best offenses mostly being driven by perimeter players,
and in this year, the top offensive player is a center known as Cookie Monster.

(Apologies to those believe Dame is having the best offensive season. It's debatable.)

[Woodsanity]

It doesn't matter, Denver shouldn't have been down 18 points points to Orlando at the half time , and one of the reason for that was Jokic not being aggressive on the offense , he was averaging almost 38 points against Wendell Carter Jr this season , tonight he was refusing open shots , he was out rebounded a lot and outplayed by Carter in my opinion , I think this was another poor game by him since the trade , I don't care about 18 assists , when he's open he should look to score not to make bunch of dumb turnovers instead , its disappointing how he switches from being scoring juggernaut to not care all of the sudden and its been like that the last three season , being that talented as the scorer and deferring to Barton ,wasting his god giving talent He can managing being both as the scorer and facilitator and thats when Denver is the most dangerous team.

Jokic doesn't play for statistics, he plays for wins.

Well he wont ever win the refs over , playing passively , they are going to be worse and worse , if you are MVP candidate you dominate every night , plain and simple.

Who the hell cares if they were down 18 when the end result is being up by 10?
Not a good game? He had 17 points/16 assists and 9 boards along with a game high +15.

You just sound clueless sorry.

[eathb_au]

Read on Twitter

WOW!

What makes this crazy impressive is that Jokic does this without a secondary star.

I mean look at Gordon's FG% since joining Denver lol

[DCasey91]

I truly underrated Lebron’s season up until his injury and especially post All Star break (had him outside top 5) but he should have been top 3
at minimum. He has goat level value to any team he is on. Plays with anyone and his load share is just to good even at age 36. He’s still the MVP of the league metaphorically All 1st team NBA defense/Top 3 offensive engine this year (But he’s the most robust out of all of them (Harden, Durant, Jokic, Giannis, Lillard, Paul etc. by a huge huge margin)
Even at 36 one of his weaker years is MVP level
What’s it at now 16?

Lakers 29th in the league at 3 point % and dead last on turnovers since Lebron has left. He floor raises like no one else can. Pretty sure he had b2b 60 win pace on a Cavs team that had a 20 win pace back pre 2010 lmao.

Still think he generates most ppp from his passes. Played elite defense this year too btw (lock for me 1st team defense, should have been in 2016/2018 & 2020 definitely anti Kobe recognition).

but isn’t the MVP this year

It’s still Jokic for me his offensive impact is up there with any of the greatest offensive seasons ever. (Though I still question his championship equity as a non elite defensive anchor for a big man).

Right now

Jokic
Harden
Giannis

Huge HM to LBJ