The Official Cunningham vs Suggs Thread #Tank4Either

[HeadtopChunes]

Assuming the Raps don't land near the top, I think Davion Mitchell is the obvious play. He should be league-ready on both sides of the ball from day one. Yeah he's older, but that also means he fits the current core's timeline and he'll be cheap and controllable through his prime.

no thanks, biggest fools gold in the draft. That offense isn't translating, at the defense while good is nothing special at 6'2

Perhaps he's having an outlier shooting season (or maybe not), but he's pretty decent navigating a PnR, as a creator for himself and others, and he's good at attacking switches. Not sure why that wouldn't play at the next level. And measuring defense by height is, of course, rather silly - I don't recall the last time I saw a guy block a shot with his head.

yep the biggest thing is I don't trust the jumper improvement, the ball-handling is super basic and the decision-making is nothing special (especially for a 22-year-old), his best offense is out-speeding bad college players. There's like no value here for an NBA offense. If the shot is real maybes he's a 3nD bench guard but that's not lotto pick worthy.

And measuring defense by height is, of course, rather silly - I don't recall the last time I saw a guy block a shot with his head.

Speaking of silly arguments i want to confirm that you are saying height doesn't matter for defense and then used shot-blocking as an example?

[B-Ball Freak]

Even if the Raptors miss out on the top 5, there are some very talented and intriguing players to be had from picks 5-10, Scottie Barnes, Jalen Johnson, Keon Johnson, Kai Jones, Jaden Springer, Zaire Williams, Moses Moody, man they weren't lying when they said this draft is deep.

[Dalek]

After absolutely carrying his team through the tournament and showing three level scoring, I am curious where Johnny Juzang's stock is in the draft. Absolutely love how competitive he is. At 6'6" and good wingspan, he looks the part of an NBA wing. Watching Gonzaga stick Suggs on him and finding issues slowing Juzang downwas eye-opening. Not to mention, Michigan having zero answers before that last game with Gonzaga.

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I would love to see him be the first Asian-American drafted. I could see him rise to the 15-20 range based on his Tournament. It is crazy the progress he has made in a short period. Basically not playing on Kentucky, to transferring to UCLA this year to be their best player.

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[mademan]

Let's not use the best pick we've had in a while to draft a 22 year old undersized guard. High potential is what the Raps need. I'd rather gamble on that over taking an NBA ready guy with a capped ceiling.

[OakleyDokely]

My top 7:

1. Cade Cunningham
2. Evan Mobley
3. Jalen Green
4. Jalen Suggs
5. Moses Moody
6. James Bouknight
7. Jonathan Kuminga

[Bruin]

My top 7:

1. Cade Cunningham
2. Evan Mobley
3. Jalen Green
4. Jalen Suggs
5. Moses Moody
6. James Bouknight
7. Jonathan Kuminga

How come you have Kuminga outside the top 5? Not high on his potential? Or is this considering fit with Pascal and OG?

[BoyzNTheHood]

Also, while we're on the subject of Scottie Barnes and FSU players let me just say that Raiquan Gray is freakin' amazing. He has a big beefy body at 6'8" 260 lbs, similar to Zion Williamson size wise, and he is exceptionally mobile at the same time. No, he won't be Zion, but I don't see why he can't be a high end role player in the mold of a Draymond Green.

He's only playing 26 minutes per game, but in that time he's highly effective shooting over 50% from the field, a few decimal points short of 80% from the free throw line and he goes for 11/6/2/1/1 per game. I know those stats look pedestrian as it comes, but he's not a box score guy.

I wouldn't take him with our first rounder, but a lot of you guys want a big but to also play small ball and this kid fits anything you want to do. Strong enough to guard big guys, but quick enough to play with small guys.

Check out some of the plays he can make

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

I know we're on the topic of 1st rounders, but I just want to keep his name in mind for 2nd rounders or an undrafted signing

Watch on YouTube

[OakleyDokely]

My top 7:

1. Cade Cunningham
2. Evan Mobley
3. Jalen Green
4. Jalen Suggs
5. Moses Moody
6. James Bouknight
7. Jonathan Kuminga

How come you have Kuminga outside the top 5? Not high on his potential? Or is this considering fit with Pascal and OG?

partially fit with Raps plus he's a pretty big project. He really struggled in the Gleague especially compared with Green.

[raptor jesus]

no thanks, biggest fools gold in the draft. That offense isn't translating, at the defense while good is nothing special at 6'2

Perhaps he's having an outlier shooting season (or maybe not), but he's pretty decent navigating a PnR, as a creator for himself and others, and he's good at attacking switches. Not sure why that wouldn't play at the next level. And measuring defense by height is, of course, rather silly - I don't recall the last time I saw a guy block a shot with his head.

yep the biggest thing is I don't trust the jumper improvement, the ball-handling is super basic and the decision-making is nothing special (especially for a 22-year-old), his best offense is out-speeding bad college players. There's like no value here for an NBA offense. If the shot is real maybes he's a 3nD bench guard but that's not lotto pick worthy.

And measuring defense by height is, of course, rather silly - I don't recall the last time I saw a guy block a shot with his head.

Speaking of silly arguments i want to confirm that you are saying height doesn't matter for defense and then used shot-blocking as an example?

Of course of it matters, but it's not the end all be all. Toughness, motor, IQ, and lateral quickness are all more important. Lowry and FVV are both smaller than Mitchell and made huge defensive contributions to a title team.

[HeadtopChunes]

Perhaps he's having an outlier shooting season (or maybe not), but he's pretty decent navigating a PnR, as a creator for himself and others, and he's good at attacking switches. Not sure why that wouldn't play at the next level. And measuring defense by height is, of course, rather silly - I don't recall the last time I saw a guy block a shot with his head.

yep the biggest thing is I don't trust the jumper improvement, the ball-handling is super basic and the decision-making is nothing special (especially for a 22-year-old), his best offense is out-speeding bad college players. There's like no value here for an NBA offense. If the shot is real maybes he's a 3nD bench guard but that's not lotto pick worthy.

And measuring defense by height is, of course, rather silly - I don't recall the last time I saw a guy block a shot with his head.

Speaking of silly arguments i want to confirm that you are saying height doesn't matter for defense and then used shot-blocking as an example?

Of course of it matters, but it's not the end all be all. Toughness, motor, IQ, and lateral quickness are all more important. Lowry and FVV are both smaller than Mitchell and made huge defensive contributions to a title team.

Sure but being a defense-first player at 6'2 is a lot less valuable than the same player at 6'4+. A guy like Lu Dort is prob not an NBA player at 6'2, the same for someone like Roberson. If you're drafting Mitchell (especially using a first or a lottery pick) the defense cannot be the main selling point because that's just not tenable in the league.

[jimmy keys]

My top 7:

1. Cade Cunningham
2. Evan Mobley
3. Jalen Green
4. Jalen Suggs
5. Moses Moody
6. James Bouknight
7. Jonathan Kuminga

The top tier is 4 players deep. Would love to have any of them on the Raptors and would even consider trading FVV & Siakam to draft two of them. Cunningham, Mobley, Suggs and Green all have superstar potential. The rest of the draft starts at pick 5, maybe a team takes Kuminga ahead of those other 4 guys, but I doubt it.

[PoundTown]

Also, while we're on the subject of Scottie Barnes and FSU players let me just say that Raiquan Gray is freakin' amazing. He has a big beefy body at 6'8" 260 lbs, similar to Zion Williamson size wise, and he is exceptionally mobile at the same time. No, he won't be Zion, but I don't see why he can't be a high end role player in the mold of a Draymond Green.

He's only playing 26 minutes per game, but in that time he's highly effective shooting over 50% from the field, a few decimal points short of 80% from the free throw line and he goes for 11/6/2/1/1 per game. I know those stats look pedestrian as it comes, but he's not a box score guy.

I wouldn't take him with our first rounder, but a lot of you guys want a big but to also play small ball and this kid fits anything you want to do. Strong enough to guard big guys, but quick enough to play with small guys.

Check out some of the plays he can make

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

I know we're on the topic of 1st rounders, but I just want to keep his name in mind for 2nd rounders or an undrafted signing

Watch on YouTube

This guy looks like good value for one of our 2nd rounders. Could be a good two way player if we can stretch him out a bit, which is completely reasonable given solid FT%, mecahnics, etc. Seems to have IQ, motor and footwork. Another 2nd rounder I like is Herbert Jones. Hopefully offense can improve enough, as his D and size for the 3 are quite good.

[LoveMyRaps]

Possibly a bit of recency bias involved but I have Suggs at #2 ahead of Mobley. Mainly because he's more NBA ready, but Mobley has the higher ceiling. I also worry about durability when it comes to these thin framed bigs.

Also does anyone see Davion as a top 10 pick? I see him being drafted outside of the lottery on most boards but I'm pretty confident he'll be a lotto pick.

[BoyzNTheHood]

Possibly a bit of recency bias involved but I have Suggs at #2 ahead of Mobley. Mainly because he's more NBA ready, but Mobley has the higher ceiling. I also worry about durability when it comes to these thin framed bigs.

Also does anyone see Davion as a top 10 pick? I see him being drafted outside of the lottery on most boards but I'm pretty confident he'll be a lotto pick.

I'd say Davion gets picked in the early 20's, but some GM could fall in love with him. I could see a guy like Terrence Shannon Jr. rising to a level no one predicted with his ideal size and youth.

[raptor jesus]

yep the biggest thing is I don't trust the jumper improvement, the ball-handling is super basic and the decision-making is nothing special (especially for a 22-year-old), his best offense is out-speeding bad college players. There's like no value here for an NBA offense. If the shot is real maybes he's a 3nD bench guard but that's not lotto pick worthy.



Speaking of silly arguments i want to confirm that you are saying height doesn't matter for defense and then used shot-blocking as an example?

Of course of it matters, but it's not the end all be all. Toughness, motor, IQ, and lateral quickness are all more important. Lowry and FVV are both smaller than Mitchell and made huge defensive contributions to a title team.

Sure but being a defense-first player at 6'2 is a lot less valuable than the same player at 6'4+. A guy like Lu Dort is prob not an NBA player at 6'2, the same for someone like Roberson. If you're drafting Mitchell (especially using a first or a lottery pick) the defense cannot be the main selling point because that's just not tenable in the league.

Ok, I hear you. We'll have to agree to disagree. In today's perimeter-oriented league, I think Mitchell's defense can be difference making at the next level; but I would agree that if you're drafting him in the lottery, he's gotta give you more than just that defense. So it's a matter of how much you buy into his offense, I suppose. To me, the numbers are good and he passes the eye test. Will he be a star? Probably not. Will he be a guy getting crunch time minutes on a good team? I'd bet on that. Maybe that's not sexy enough for a lottery pick, but I think he's got a better shot at impacting winning than several guys slotted ahead of him solely due to their "potential".

[Kurtz]

My top 7:

1. Cade Cunningham
2. Evan Mobley
3. Jalen Green
4. Jalen Suggs
5. Moses Moody
6. James Bouknight
7. Jonathan Kuminga

Man - Moody is rated highly but he showed me nothing in the tourney. Very passive - hung out on perimeter, made the odd jumper, that's about it. What's his absolute ceiling - Middleton?

[Dalek]

If Toronto doesn't want to burn a pick in the first on a defensive big, my pick in the second round would be JT Thor. I have a feeling this kid could end up a first rounder after workouts but getting him in the second would be a steal. He reminds me a bit of Paul Reed as he is a stat stuffer with a better shooting form than Reed coming in.

6'10" with a at least a 7'1" wingspan
1.4 blocks and 0.8 steals per game; projects as a switchy defender
30% from three on 3 shots per game. 74% freethrow shooter so he has room to improve his outside shooting.
Very good motor and base set of skills

Only a freshman but it is unclear what his age is. At least I could not find an official listing. He grew up in the US and has Sudanese parents. He had a really good first year averaging almost 10 and 5 and even had his best game against Kentucky outplaying Isaiah Jackson.

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[ATLTimekeeper]

Mitchell's first step is good enough that I think there's a bit of offensive upside for him in the NBA. It's not like the old days where you needed to get all the way to the rim to create. I think his range should be 10-30. 10, if you think he can be a solid 5th starter like a Beverly-type, and all the way to 30 if you just want solid guard depth. His size doesn't bother me because he plays big like Fred and Kyle and looks like he can guard SGs.

Anything after 10 is typically just a solid starter, although there have been some big hits recently out of Kentucky. That might just be about them.

[OakleyDokely]

My top 7:

1. Cade Cunningham
2. Evan Mobley
3. Jalen Green
4. Jalen Suggs
5. Moses Moody
6. James Bouknight
7. Jonathan Kuminga

Man - Moody is rated highly but he showed me nothing in the tourney. Very passive - hung out on perimeter, made the odd jumper, that's about it. What's his absolute ceiling - Middleton?

Beyond the obvious 3+D potential with him, he got to the line at a pretty good rate (averaged just under 6 attempts per game), his wingspan is 7'1 so there's versatility there in terms of position and he doesnt really have any clear weaknesses. He's pretty competent at most aspects of the game.

[Son Goku 25]

If we get Jalen Johnson, I wonder if we trade Siakam for another star.