Knicks - Celtics PG: Do we need Woody back?

[Deeeez Knicks]

not much is gonna change from the team until we get better guards and get rid of payton for good

i think the knicks need an actual first option even more than that. and no i don't think anyone on this team is or will ever be that. i know this is blasphemy but it is what it is.

correct, I don't think Lonzo Ball for example fixes our issues especially late in games. He isn't breaking down a defense in the half court in the last two minutes to create for himself or others.

A PG would def be nice...but a #1 option is more important so I agree. A #1 option that is a PG is ideal. So is Lillard available

We can all agree a #1 option would be better then Ball. We do need both a #1 option and a pg. it’s also possible to get both such as Dame as you mentioned. Just hard to do. If a legit #1 option is not available (which doesn’t seem likely) then the next priority should def be upgrade at PG. someone like Ball would even work really well next to Lillard so if by any miracle we get both it would be a positive.

Guys like Derozan or Dipo are good, but aren’t really legit #1 options/best players on a championship types anyway. They are closer to RJ and Randle. No doubt they would help, but financially just expecting them to cost too much and from a fit perspective it’s not great.

[Richard4444]

Read on Twitter

i told you he aint sh*t. people were complaining about his minutes. jesus.

Ignas is a good rebounder and scorer in College/GLeague. But appears he has not enough athleticism to stand out against NBA players. In the few minutes, he played in NBA, he was very shy and was not aggressive.

He cant be a role player. Because he is below average shooter and defender.

[GONYK]

i think the knicks need an actual first option even more than that. and no i don't think anyone on this team is or will ever be that. i know this is blasphemy but it is what it is.

correct, I don't think Lonzo Ball for example fixes our issues especially late in games. He isn't breaking down a defense in the half court in the last two minutes to create for himself or others.

A PG would def be nice...but a #1 option is more important so I agree. A #1 option that is a PG is ideal. So is Lillard available

We can all agree a #1 option would be better then Ball. We do need both a #1 option and a pg. it’s also possible to get both such as Dame as you mentioned. Just hard to do. If a legit #1 option is not available (which doesn’t seem likely) then the next priority should def be upgrade at PG. someone like Ball would even work really well next to Lillard so if by any miracle we get both it would be a positive.

Guys like Derozan or Dipo are good, but aren’t really legit #1 options/best players on a championship types anyway. They are closer to RJ and Randle. No doubt they would help, but financially just expecting them to cost too much and from a fit perspective it’s not great.

This is really the NBA's fault for not having more than 3-5 absolute game changing franchise players for us to poach.

Silver needs to work on that.

[Deeeez Knicks]

there's enough money for both

For Derozan + Ball? We do have enough money for both but then would be capped out for the foreseeable future.

I would pass on Derozan and just add Ball. Then save the max slot in our back pocket for a legit #1 guy if possible. Our window is basically this year and next before we have to reup Randle, Mitch and then RJ

listen, i would probably pass on both. i don't think they're thinking that.

what's randle's cap hold in 2022 ? lonzo at an overpriced number plus add 2 more 1st rounders salaries this summer. there might not be as much room in 2022 than we think. i'm not sure what it looks like.

Randle's cap hold is almost $30mil. If we throw in cap holds for Randle, RJ, Mitch, Quickley, Obi, 3 first round picks, and roster spots we would have about $53mil in cap space for '22. If we add in $22mil for Ball we have about $31mil in cap space. This is also dependent on Mitch's low cap hold of less then $4mil

Lavine's max I think would start around $34mil. So we can just move Obi or one or more of those picks and be there (doubt we are keeping them all anyway)

But basically if we want to time it before we lock up Mitch and extend Randle we would have $53 to $62mil to play with. I would target one of those $20 to $24mil players this offseason and then keep that max in the back pocket. Ball seems like a perfect target for that.

[mpharris36]

i think the knicks need an actual first option even more than that. and no i don't think anyone on this team is or will ever be that. i know this is blasphemy but it is what it is.

correct, I don't think Lonzo Ball for example fixes our issues especially late in games. He isn't breaking down a defense in the half court in the last two minutes to create for himself or others.

A PG would def be nice...but a #1 option is more important so I agree. A #1 option that is a PG is ideal. So is Lillard available

We can all agree a #1 option would be better then Ball. We do need both a #1 option and a pg. it’s also possible to get both such as Dame as you mentioned. Just hard to do. If a legit #1 option is not available (which doesn’t seem likely) then the next priority should def be upgrade at PG. someone like Ball would even work really well next to Lillard so if by any miracle we get both it would be a positive.

Guys like Derozan or Dipo are good, but aren’t really legit #1 options/best players on a championship types anyway. They are closer to RJ and Randle. No doubt they would help, but financially just expecting them to cost too much and from a fit perspective it’s not great.

Agree but in the case both aren't available I think I would target Brunson more than Ball tbh or a player of that ilk...don't get me wrong Ball will improve the team because he just better then Elf at nearly everything.

I just think I need someone to break down the defense in the half court or we wont solve our current issue...like we are in these games we just can't finish. I don't know if Ball fixes our end of the game issue. He helps for sure during the game just as an improvement over Elf...but when you are talking about investing big big money into a player in RFA to steal him away and an "overpay"...I'm just not sure...we shall see.

[god shammgod]

For Derozan + Ball? We do have enough money for both but then would be capped out for the foreseeable future.

I would pass on Derozan and just add Ball. Then save the max slot in our back pocket for a legit #1 guy if possible. Our window is basically this year and next before we have to reup Randle, Mitch and then RJ

listen, i would probably pass on both. i don't think they're thinking that.

what's randle's cap hold in 2022 ? lonzo at an overpriced number plus add 2 more 1st rounders salaries this summer. there might not be as much room in 2022 than we think. i'm not sure what it looks like.

Randle's cap hold is almost $30mil. If we throw in cap holds for Randle, RJ, Mitch, Quickley, Obi, 3 first round picks, and roster spots we would have about $53mil in cap space for '22. If we add in $22mil for Ball we have about $31mil in cap space. This is also dependent on Mitch's low cap hold of less then $4mil

Lavine's max I think would start around $34mil. So we can just move Obi or one of those picks and be there.

But basically if we want to time it before we lock up Mitch and extend Randle we would have $53 to $62mil to play with. I would target one of those $20 to $24mil players this offseason and then keep that max in the back pocket. Ball seems like a perfect target for that.

i wonder if they let burks, bullock, noel, rose, payton all go or they only sign 1 year deals. i would think guys like burks and bullock have played themselves out of accepting that.

who is the 2022 target besides lavine ? beal i guess ?

none of it looks that great whether they spend the money this year or next

[mpharris36]

listen, i would probably pass on both. i don't think they're thinking that.

what's randle's cap hold in 2022 ? lonzo at an overpriced number plus add 2 more 1st rounders salaries this summer. there might not be as much room in 2022 than we think. i'm not sure what it looks like.

Randle's cap hold is almost $30mil. If we throw in cap holds for Randle, RJ, Mitch, Quickley, Obi, 3 first round picks, and roster spots we would have about $53mil in cap space for '22. If we add in $22mil for Ball we have about $31mil in cap space. This is also dependent on Mitch's low cap hold of less then $4mil

Lavine's max I think would start around $34mil. So we can just move Obi or one of those picks and be there.

But basically if we want to time it before we lock up Mitch and extend Randle we would have $53 to $62mil to play with. I would target one of those $20 to $24mil players this offseason and then keep that max in the back pocket. Ball seems like a perfect target for that.

i wonder if they let burks, bullock, noel, rose, payton all go or they only sign 1 year deals. i would think guys like burks and bullock have played themselves out of accepting that.

who is the 2022 target besides lavine ? beal i guess ?

none of it looks that great whether they spend the money this year or next

Brunson

[Deeeez Knicks]

correct, I don't think Lonzo Ball for example fixes our issues especially late in games. He isn't breaking down a defense in the half court in the last two minutes to create for himself or others.

A PG would def be nice...but a #1 option is more important so I agree. A #1 option that is a PG is ideal. So is Lillard available

We can all agree a #1 option would be better then Ball. We do need both a #1 option and a pg. it’s also possible to get both such as Dame as you mentioned. Just hard to do. If a legit #1 option is not available (which doesn’t seem likely) then the next priority should def be upgrade at PG. someone like Ball would even work really well next to Lillard so if by any miracle we get both it would be a positive.

Guys like Derozan or Dipo are good, but aren’t really legit #1 options/best players on a championship types anyway. They are closer to RJ and Randle. No doubt they would help, but financially just expecting them to cost too much and from a fit perspective it’s not great.

Agree but in the case both aren't available I think I would target Brunson more than Ball tbh or a player of that ilk...don't get me wrong Ball will improve the team because he just better then Elf at nearly everything.

I just think I need someone to break down the defense in the half court or we wont solve our current issue...like we are in these games we just can't finish. I don't know if Ball fixes our end of the game issue. He helps for sure during the game just as an improvement over Elf...but when you are talking about investing big big money into a player in RFA to steal him away and an "overpay"...I'm just not sure...we shall see.

Ball isn't gonna break down the defense and ideally I would want my PG to. But I think we can also give RJ more room to be a facilitator and let him handle the ball more. Love the way he has been improving.

I do like the we would be signing Ball during his prime years and I wouldnt sleep on him improving. Offensively he's gonna do most of his damage from outside but I think thats fine and pairs well with RJ, Randle, Mitch.

Ideally if we are building a contender anyway we are going to have to fill in that missing piece with a #1 primary option anyway who is gonna need the ball.

I would take Brunson too. Just depends on his price vs Ball's price especially since I don't think Dallas would trade him to us for cheap. Maybe if we miss out he would be a good free agent target in '22. I just can't do another season with Elf as our starting PG

[mpharris36]

We can all agree a #1 option would be better then Ball. We do need both a #1 option and a pg. it’s also possible to get both such as Dame as you mentioned. Just hard to do. If a legit #1 option is not available (which doesn’t seem likely) then the next priority should def be upgrade at PG. someone like Ball would even work really well next to Lillard so if by any miracle we get both it would be a positive.

Guys like Derozan or Dipo are good, but aren’t really legit #1 options/best players on a championship types anyway. They are closer to RJ and Randle. No doubt they would help, but financially just expecting them to cost too much and from a fit perspective it’s not great.

Agree but in the case both aren't available I think I would target Brunson more than Ball tbh or a player of that ilk...don't get me wrong Ball will improve the team because he just better then Elf at nearly everything.

I just think I need someone to break down the defense in the half court or we wont solve our current issue...like we are in these games we just can't finish. I don't know if Ball fixes our end of the game issue. He helps for sure during the game just as an improvement over Elf...but when you are talking about investing big big money into a player in RFA to steal him away and an "overpay"...I'm just not sure...we shall see.

Ball isn't gonna break down the defense and ideally I would want my PG to. But I think we can also give RJ more room to be a facilitator and let him handle the ball more. Love the way he has been improving.

I do like the we would be signing Ball during his prime years and I wouldnt sleep on him improving. Offensively he's gonna do most of his damage from outside but I think thats fine and pairs well with RJ, Randle, Mitch.

Ideally if we are building a contender anyway we are going to have to fill in that missing piece with a #1 primary option anyway who is gonna need the ball.

I would take Brunson too. Just depends on his price vs Ball's price especially since I don't think Dallas would trade him to us for cheap. Maybe if we miss out he would be a good free agent target in '22. I just can't do another season with Elf as our starting PG

I think we all feel that same way..outside of maybe thibs

[Deeeez Knicks]

listen, i would probably pass on both. i don't think they're thinking that.

what's randle's cap hold in 2022 ? lonzo at an overpriced number plus add 2 more 1st rounders salaries this summer. there might not be as much room in 2022 than we think. i'm not sure what it looks like.

Randle's cap hold is almost $30mil. If we throw in cap holds for Randle, RJ, Mitch, Quickley, Obi, 3 first round picks, and roster spots we would have about $53mil in cap space for '22. If we add in $22mil for Ball we have about $31mil in cap space. This is also dependent on Mitch's low cap hold of less then $4mil

Lavine's max I think would start around $34mil. So we can just move Obi or one of those picks and be there.

But basically if we want to time it before we lock up Mitch and extend Randle we would have $53 to $62mil to play with. I would target one of those $20 to $24mil players this offseason and then keep that max in the back pocket. Ball seems like a perfect target for that.

i wonder if they let burks, bullock, noel, rose, payton all go or they only sign 1 year deals. i would think guys like burks and bullock have played themselves out of accepting that.

who is the 2022 target besides lavine ? beal i guess ?

none of it looks that great whether they spend the money this year or next

Yea, it will be interesting to see what happens this offseason. I can see them bringing some of those guys back and maybe splurging more on other free agents. To me, a lot of those guys are pretty replaceable so I would not spend much. But for the right price they could be worth bringing back.

[Capn'O]

Read on Twitter

This!!! All of thisss!!??

Let’s get that lottery pick Folks!!!!!!!!

This is true and how it would go in the playoffs.

If we're in the lottery, I hope we can move up We've won too many to naturally fall to a good position.

[GONYK]

I think it is even simpler than that.

We don't close games as well as good teams because good teams have better closers.

[Reign23]

Read on Twitter

tbh, he must look like magic johnson in practice

Must be a great tipper at Clyde's Wine and Dine too.

clyde really annoys me with this ****.

[Reign23]

Agree but in the case both aren't available I think I would target Brunson more than Ball tbh or a player of that ilk...don't get me wrong Ball will improve the team because he just better then Elf at nearly everything.

I just think I need someone to break down the defense in the half court or we wont solve our current issue...like we are in these games we just can't finish. I don't know if Ball fixes our end of the game issue. He helps for sure during the game just as an improvement over Elf...but when you are talking about investing big big money into a player in RFA to steal him away and an "overpay"...I'm just not sure...we shall see.

Ball isn't gonna break down the defense and ideally I would want my PG to. But I think we can also give RJ more room to be a facilitator and let him handle the ball more. Love the way he has been improving.

I do like the we would be signing Ball during his prime years and I wouldnt sleep on him improving. Offensively he's gonna do most of his damage from outside but I think thats fine and pairs well with RJ, Randle, Mitch.

Ideally if we are building a contender anyway we are going to have to fill in that missing piece with a #1 primary option anyway who is gonna need the ball.

I would take Brunson too. Just depends on his price vs Ball's price especially since I don't think Dallas would trade him to us for cheap. Maybe if we miss out he would be a good free agent target in '22. I just can't do another season with Elf as our starting PG

I think we all feel that same way..outside of maybe thibs

yeah me neither. I can't watch this clown anymore.

[Reign23]

Hypothetical:

this offseason, Kings offer their 2021 1st (currently #10) for Julius Randle.....do you take it?

I'm a bit torn. I do like Julius now that he's a much improved (and now a +) 3PT shooter, and he's still young (26)

on the other hand, could be an opportunity to sell high and arguably it's better to give RJ the keys and surround him with a shooting (getting a true stretch-4 b/c even tho Julius a good 3PT now, he's still ball-dominant)

I mean.. I'd rather package our picks with something to move up in the draft. Thibs won't play the 10th pick anyway.

I don't see any team in the top 5 moving out of their pick this year, unfortunately

yeah me neither. but I would throw the kitchen sink at one of those teams. basically everthing other than RJ. And would take back a bad contract too.

[DOT]

I think it is even simpler than that.

We don't close games as well as good teams because good teams have better closers.

Good teams have closers who can create 3s off the dribble to pull themselves back into games late

For as good as Randle has been, he can't do that. RJ can't either, though he's a good enough shooter now to spot up

Elf - lol

Rose, kind of but not really

Quick and Burks can create 3s off the dribble, but they're inconsistent because Quick's a rookie and Burks is a backup.

[The Lamma]

I read that if we make the playoffs as the 10th seed, we can be in the playoffs AND get #8 pick with a chance of moving into the top 4. This is what I want at this point.

I've had this conversation, and it's surprisingly extremely hard to find a definitive answer. However, it appears that what you suggest isn't possible. It appears that the 16 teams that actually make the playoffs (ie after the play-in tourney) are the teams who won't be in the lottery.

So if you are the 10th team after the regular season and win the two play in-games you don't get to be part of the lottery. To be very picky - if you are 10th after the regular season you are not the 10th seed in the playoffs, you are simply a team in the play-in tourney. (And the same applies if you are 7th after the regular season.)

If you have a definitive source contradiction this, please do post a link to it.

B8R you are correct. Islanders, in short: no you can't make the playoffs and be in the lottery, it's one or the other.

Play-in tournament works like this, source: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/31198434/how-does-nba-play-tournament-work-dates-projections-rules-explained

[Jeff Van Gully]

I read that if we make the playoffs as the 10th seed, we can be in the playoffs AND get #8 pick with a chance of moving into the top 4. This is what I want at this point.

I've had this conversation, and it's surprisingly extremely hard to find a definitive answer. However, it appears that what you suggest isn't possible. It appears that the 16 teams that actually make the playoffs (ie after the play-in tourney) are the teams who won't be in the lottery.

So if you are the 10th team after the regular season and win the two play in-games you don't get to be part of the lottery. To be very picky - if you are 10th after the regular season you are not the 10th seed in the playoffs, you are simply a team in the play-in tourney. (And the same applies if you are 7th after the regular season.)

If you have a definitive source contradiction this, please do post a link to it.

B8R you are correct. Islanders, in short: no you can't make the playoffs and be in the lottery, it's one or the other.

Play-in tournament works like this, source: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/31198434/how-does-nba-play-tournament-work-dates-projections-rules-explained

that's high drama. i kind of like it.

[NYKinMIA]

B8R you are correct. Islanders, in short: no you can't make the playoffs and be in the lottery, it's one or the other.

Play-in tournament works like this, source: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/31198434/how-does-nba-play-tournament-work-dates-projections-rules-explained

Nice work. Thanks.

[BowlRips]

We can all agree a #1 option would be better then Ball. We do need both a #1 option and a pg. it’s also possible to get both such as Dame as you mentioned. Just hard to do. If a legit #1 option is not available (which doesn’t seem likely) then the next priority should def be upgrade at PG. someone like Ball would even work really well next to Lillard so if by any miracle we get both it would be a positive.

Guys like Derozan or Dipo are good, but aren’t really legit #1 options/best players on a championship types anyway. They are closer to RJ and Randle. No doubt they would help, but financially just expecting them to cost too much and from a fit perspective it’s not great.

Agree but in the case both aren't available I think I would target Brunson more than Ball tbh or a player of that ilk...don't get me wrong Ball will improve the team because he just better then Elf at nearly everything.

I just think I need someone to break down the defense in the half court or we wont solve our current issue...like we are in these games we just can't finish. I don't know if Ball fixes our end of the game issue. He helps for sure during the game just as an improvement over Elf...but when you are talking about investing big big money into a player in RFA to steal him away and an "overpay"...I'm just not sure...we shall see.

Ball isn't gonna break down the defense and ideally I would want my PG to. But I think we can also give RJ more room to be a facilitator and let him handle the ball more. Love the way he has been improving.

I do like the we would be signing Ball during his prime years and I wouldnt sleep on him improving. Offensively he's gonna do most of his damage from outside but I think thats fine and pairs well with RJ, Randle, Mitch.

Ideally if we are building a contender anyway we are going to have to fill in that missing piece with a #1 primary option anyway who is gonna need the ball.

I would take Brunson too. Just depends on his price vs Ball's price especially since I don't think Dallas would trade him to us for cheap. Maybe if we miss out he would be a good free agent target in '22. I just can't do another season with Elf as our starting PG

To extract Brunson from Dallas I think it's going to require Dallas making a bigger blockbuster type of deal.
For example: Brunson to New York for the Mavs 2023 pick..
Mavs do it to open up their ability to trade the 2022 and 2024 picks in anothe rdeal