Rapinoe vs Green... who you got?

[hongdayuan]

if g-leaguers complain about massive pay difference they will be laughed off the planet, WNBA players does it and we have an internet debate.

[AingesBurner]

Equal investment and return should be made at all levels that utilize public funds, beginning with public athletic programs for toddlers all the way on up to professional sports.

The fallacy that men’s sports are better or more entertaining is something we have all been indoctrinated into by sexist stereotypes present throughout our education.

You went full woke, never go full woke.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The reason I have zero sympathy for this particular cause is that it's being presented as a social justice topic and this is what being used in negotiations, threatening the league to turn it into a PR nightmare for them.
This is professional sports, no fundamental rights are being ignored here.
There actually are serious gender inequality issues in the US to focus instead, cry me a river.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[Doctor MJ]

In tennis they make similar prize money despite ticket sales being 1/3 of what the men's are and ratings also being lower. Yes, when this issue got political, women watched tennis in droves to make a point and it skewed the results (aided by woke networks) for a year or so but that's since gone back to normal. Women play 1-1.5 hour matches where men play 3 hours. This allows women to have the energy to be able to play the doubles tournaments as well which further skews the comparisons. She really needs to stay in her lane when she appears pretty uneducated about economics. I get that it's an emotional subject for the "marginalized" but in this case regarding women's basketball, Green is absolutely right and she looks foolish chiming in.

I'd like to see data on this stuff dude.

Partly on my concern here is that the way you're describing ticket sales at big tournaments is not my experience. It's less "I'd like a ticket for that match" and more "I'd like to buy this seat today" or "I'd like to buy access to the grounds". Not saying there aren't exceptions to this, but the question of "Do we want to buy tickets to see the women or to see the men?" isn't a thing I even have to think about. When you're at a tournament, you're typically into both men's and women's.

Re: when this issue got political, women watched tennis in droves to make a point. Seriously, what data do you have that demonstrates this? Sounds like you're talking out of your ass.

Re: Men play 3 hours. This is a pointless thing though. It exists only for the sake of tradition. The reality is that tennis is having an existential crisis right now because Best of 5 matches in general are too long. I mean we all love watching a great 5th set, but in the vast majority of Best of 5 matches the winner is pretty much known when there's likely to be over an hour left in the match. That's not what you want in the age of 21st century audiences looking at the screen in between digital dopamine hits.

[MrPerfect1]

I don't know how to feel about this. On the one hand, women's sports are usually less competitive than men's and so they generate less revenue. But that is also a function of receiving much less funding.

Women's tennis has shown that pay equality can work. The women cannot compete with the men physically (obviously), but the quality of the women's matches is still very entertaining and draws strong viewership numbers.

It has nothing to do with whether or not women can compete with men in a sport. Only thing that matters is the revenue their sport (business) generates. If womens' tennis makes as much revenue as mens then of course they deserve equal pay.

That's obviously not the case with NBA vs WNBA.

And why is women's tennis more popular than the WNBA?

It's because the quality of women's tennis is generally much higher than the quality on display in the WNBA. That quality discrepancy exists because women's basketball is poorly funded, leading to a lack of player development.

-This isn't true. The reason that Women's Tennis is far more popular is because it views better on TV.

People primarily watch Pro Sports to watch Top Athletes do things they cannot.

Women Tennis Players still serve roughly 100 mph, hit down the line backhand winners with pin point accuracy, and have precision drop shots and volleys. Almost nobody in this forum can hit 100 mph serves or killer backhand passing shots.

When the average person watches Women's tennis, they see things they can never come close to doing.

-By contrast, anything you see in the WNBA is stuff everyone here can do and has done. Layups- Check. Bounce Passes-Check. 3 Pointers from less than NBA distance-Check.

Yes, they might make free throws 80% of the time vs my 70% or hit 3's 40% vs my 20%, but you will never find WNBA highlights than people in rhis forum haven't done before.

When you Watch the WNBA, it looks like watching a small school High School game (below the rim, rarely anyone above 6'4", relatively slowly paced, etc)

[clyde21]

If as much money was thrown at girl's sports as boy's, and if girls could see themselves making a sustainable living as professional athletes, perhaps there would be more skilled female athletes.

And there is a good reason not nearly as much money is invested into female sports. Its because little girls (generally) aren't keen on competitive competition as much as boys are.

Because they are socialized not to be keen on it. And there isn't a future in it. Boys can make a living playing sports. Girls would have a much harder time doing the same.

This isn't some evil conspiracy plan perpetrated over centuries of human civilization. Boys and girls are just different. Not just from a physical perspective but also a characteristic point of view.

It most certainly is. Gender roles have been enforced since the beginning of time. They shape our "characteristics".

you think cavemen just woke up one day flipped a coin and decided what 'gender roles' will be for eternity? gender roles evolved around the capabilities and differences between men and women, men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things, men have their own interests, women have their own interests, and that's how society was built and structured over hundreds of thousands of years.

it's aint some grand conspiracy.

[Roddy B for 3]

I don't have a cable set up, so I'm not the right guy to talk to about this, I guess. But the reason I got into basketball was talking with my Dad about them and then falling asleep to ESPN when I was about 12. First I gained the knowledge, then I understood what I was watching and enjoyed it much more.

If Britney Griner's team was playing against Sue Birds team, or Pagie Buckers, or Candice Parker, or Cheryl Miller, I'd be very excited to watch that.

If their was something like "The WJump" on after, "The Jump", personally I'd be more interested in watching that than NFL live (once again, I'd like to know the hosts Candice Parker, Rachel Nicholas, etc.). I would leave "The WJump" on as background noise while I'm doing chores same as I do with NFL live or PTI or whatever talking head show. Once I learn about who the players are,the story lines, the good teams, the bad teams, the good players, the bad players, etc. I'd be even more interested in the sport.

Funding is advertising and advertising makes people more interested.

TLDR: I will watch Womens sports of they are on, they arent on enough to watch with regularity. I will watch Womens sports more if I know who the contestants are and what to look for (Ex: watch Randle in his breakout year, watch Steve Mash for his passing, watch Gobert for his rim protection, watch Harden for his pull up threes, watch Jimmy for his twoway play, watch Edwards as a #1 pick)

[Roddy B for 3]

It has nothing to do with whether or not women can compete with men in a sport. Only thing that matters is the revenue their sport (business) generates. If womens' tennis makes as much revenue as mens then of course they deserve equal pay.

That's obviously not the case with NBA vs WNBA.

And why is women's tennis more popular than the WNBA?

It's because the quality of women's tennis is generally much higher than the quality on display in the WNBA. That quality discrepancy exists because women's basketball is poorly funded, leading to a lack of player development.

-This isn't true. The reason that Women's Tennis is far more popular is because it views better on TV.

People primarily watch Pro Sports to watch Top Athletes do things they cannot.

Women Tennis Players still serve roughly 100 mph, hit down the line backhand winners with pin point accuracy, and have precision drop shots and volleys. Almost nobody in this forum can hit 100 mph serves or killer backhand passing shots.

When the average person watches Women's tennis, they see things they can never come close to doing.

-By contrast, anything you see in the WNBA is stuff everyone here can do and has done. Layups- Check. Bounce Passes-Check. 3 Pointers from less than NBA distance-Check.

Yes, they might make free throws 80% of the time vs my 70% or hit 3's 40% vs my 20%, but you will never find WNBA highlights than people in rhis forum haven't done before.

When you Watch the WNBA, it looks like watching a small school High School game (below the rim, rarely anyone above 6'4", relatively slowly paced, etc)

You think you can just walk into the WNBA and be at their level?

[Optms]

If as much money was thrown at girl's sports as boy's, and if girls could see themselves making a sustainable living as professional athletes, perhaps there would be more skilled female athletes.

And there is a good reason not nearly as much money is invested into female sports. Its because little girls (generally) aren't keen on competitive competition as much as boys are.

Because they are socialized not to be keen on it. And there isn't a future in it. Boys can make a living playing sports. Girls would have a much harder time doing the same.

I disagree. Boys are generally rowdy, girls are generally docile. You look across all eras of cultures, all eras of humanity, this theme remains the same. And that's because we are opposite sexes. With opposite tendencies. And those tendencies start making themselves apparent from childhood.

We as people from the very beginning push boys and girls to certain groups (In this case, Sports) because this is us by nature. If it was not, then how in the world have we kept this farce up for thousands of years? I'm not saying this is the rule, because clearly girls can play sports too. I am merely explaining the differences between both sexes, and why Sports for boys is a higher priority. Our whole systems of social constructs are built around our inherit characteristics.

[tbhawksfan1]

Men and women's Bball will always have a fundamental difference imposed by biology. Doen't necessarily mean one is better than the other. Men play more above the rim, women play more passing and fundamental. Anyone that says that Men's is better might want to understand that in fact they are comparing apples to oranges and also should realize that they are biased by their educated preferences. Men dunk and that's great. Women don't dunk so men are better. Get past that simple bias and things become much more interesting

[Roddy B for 3]

if g-leaguers complain about massive pay difference they will be laughed off the planet, WNBA players does it and we have an internet debate.

Not even true. People talk alot about investing in the Gleague. That investment would come in many forms, including higher salaries.

And fwiw the worst part of the Gleague is the selfish play, the opposite of the WNBA.

If the Gleague game is not being played by two selfish ballhog PG's i'll watch that game, if a Gleague game with some college players i used to watch is going head to head with a bad NBA game their is a good chanve i'll watC the Gleague.

[MrPerfect1]

And why is women's tennis more popular than the WNBA?

It's because the quality of women's tennis is generally much higher than the quality on display in the WNBA. That quality discrepancy exists because women's basketball is poorly funded, leading to a lack of player development.

-This isn't true. The reason that Women's Tennis is far more popular is because it views better on TV.

People primarily watch Pro Sports to watch Top Athletes do things they cannot.

Women Tennis Players still serve roughly 100 mph, hit down the line backhand winners with pin point accuracy, and have precision drop shots and volleys. Almost nobody in this forum can hit 100 mph serves or killer backhand passing shots.

When the average person watches Women's tennis, they see things they can never come close to doing.

-By contrast, anything you see in the WNBA is stuff everyone here can do and has done. Layups- Check. Bounce Passes-Check. 3 Pointers from less than NBA distance-Check.

Yes, they might make free throws 80% of the time vs my 70% or hit 3's 40% vs my 20%, but you will never find WNBA highlights than people in rhis forum haven't done before.

When you Watch the WNBA, it looks like watching a small school High School game (below the rim, rarely anyone above 6'4", relatively slowly paced, etc)

You think you can just walk into the WNBA and be at their level?

You clearly didn't read my post. I said that anything they do I can do, just maybe not as well.

For example, post any highlight and I can go do the same thing in my driveway.

This isn't true for tennis. It would take years and years to match certain shots they do outside of like a 1/10,000 miracle shot. This is because tennis is so technique oriented.

[clyde21]

Men and women's Bball will always have a fundamental difference imposed by biology. Doen't necessarily mean one is better than the other.

sorry, but yes it does. that's the entire point of physical sports. and in basketball especially that difference is really glaring.

[tbhawksfan1]

And there is a good reason not nearly as much money is invested into female sports. Its because little girls (generally) aren't keen on competitive competition as much as boys are.

Because they are socialized not to be keen on it. And there isn't a future in it. Boys can make a living playing sports. Girls would have a much harder time doing the same.

This isn't some evil conspiracy plan perpetrated over centuries of human civilization. Boys and girls are just different. Not just from a physical perspective but also a characteristic point of view.

It most certainly is. Gender roles have been enforced since the beginning of time. They shape our "characteristics".

you think cavemen just woke up one day flipped a coin and decided what 'gender roles' will be for eternity? gender roles evolved around the capabilities and differences between men and women, men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things, men have their own interests, women have their own interests, and that's how society was built and structured over hundreds of thousands of years.

it's aint some grand conspiracy.

The definition of conspiracy is a bad plan by two or more people. So it could be a conspiracy. Habit easily becomes addiction and creates rejection of anything that doesn"t feed the habit

[BK_2020]

Women's tennis is about as far from finesse as you can get. They just hit it back as hard as they can and hope the other player is the first one to sail one 20 feet beyond the baseline.
There's nothing except stereotypes supporting the notion that men's tennis is about power and women's tennis is about skill and touch. It's the opposite.

Hmm, there's a discussion to be had here but you're oversimplifying.

About 20 years ago the men's game was getting crippled by power and the women's game was more interesting. This was caused by racket technology which made women more powerful but made men too powerful. You were seeing guys win on grass who couldn't do anything except serve.

2 things changed that as I see it: 1) They changed the surfaces to slow down the game (except on clay, which was already slow as molasses), and 2) the next generation of players learned to be able to react fast enough to return those super-fast shots.

The result then is that while power in real ways still rules the men's game, the issues of "I only serve" dominance went away.

At that point the fact that there are just more top level male players than female players allowed greater physical dominance at the top by someone like Serena than we've seen from someone on the men's side.

Women's tennis 20 years ago was just hit it back hard while grunting like pigs. Meanwhile, here's the year end top 16 of 2001 for the ATP:
1 Lleyton Hewitt AUS 4,365 1 8 Increase 6
2 Gustavo Kuerten BRA 3,855 1 2 Decrease 1
3 Andre Agassi USA 3,520 2 6 Increase 3
4 Yevgeny Kafelnikov RUS 3,090 4 7 Increase 1
5 Juan Carlos Ferrero ESP 3,040 4 16 Increase 7
6 Sébastien Grosjean FRA 2,790 6 19 Increase 13
7 Patrick Rafter AUS 2,785 4 15 Increase 8
8 Tommy Haas GER 2,285 8 24 Increase 15
9 Tim Henman GBR 2,100 8 12 Increase 1
10 Pete Sampras USA 1,940 3 12 Decrease 7
11 Marat Safin RUS 1,920 1 11 Decrease 9
12 Goran Ivanišević CRO 1,761 12 132 Increase 117
13 Roger Federer SUI 1,745 12 30 Increase 16
14 Andy Roddick USA 1,573 14 156 Increase 142
15 Guillermo Cañas ARG 1,572 15 231 Increase 216
16 Àlex Corretja ESP 1,525 7 17 Decrease 8

No serve-only guys, except maybe Roddick.

[Raps in 4]

And there is a good reason not nearly as much money is invested into female sports. Its because little girls (generally) aren't keen on competitive competition as much as boys are.

Because they are socialized not to be keen on it. And there isn't a future in it. Boys can make a living playing sports. Girls would have a much harder time doing the same.

This isn't some evil conspiracy plan perpetrated over centuries of human civilization. Boys and girls are just different. Not just from a physical perspective but also a characteristic point of view.

It most certainly is. Gender roles have been enforced since the beginning of time. They shape our "characteristics".

you think cavemen just woke up one day flipped a coin and decided what 'gender roles' will be for eternity? gender roles evolved around the capabilities and differences between men and women, men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things, men have their own interests, women have their own interests, and that's how society was built and structured over hundreds of thousands of years.

it's not some grand conspiracy.

Men are good at certain things like leading countries and organizations, owning property, voting, getting an education and so on, right? Because until recently, women weren't allowed to do any of those things. Gender roles have helped men dominate for millennia. Only now are some of these barriers coming down.

[tbhawksfan1]

Men and women's Bball will always have a fundamental difference imposed by biology. Doen't necessarily mean one is better than the other.

sorry, but yes it does. that's the entire point of physical sports. and in basketball especially that difference is really glaring.

Bball is not only physical. It is also technical.

[bebopdeluxe]

Women want equal pay? Well maybe start bringing a similar performance as men and not lose to U15 boys as a national team. Stuff is plain embarassing. Or tennis were the women play somewhere around half the time men play.

If as much money was thrown at girl's sports as boy's, and if girls could see themselves making a sustainable living as professional athletes, perhaps there would be more skilled female athletes.

And there is a good reason not nearly as much money is invested into female sports. Its because little girls (generally) aren't keen on competitive competition as much as boys are. This isn't some evil conspiracy plan perpetrated over centuries of human civilization. Boys and girls are just different. Not just from a physical perspective but also a characteristic point of view.

Wow. This is some CLASSIC neanderthal right here. Congratulations.

I guess you also think that girls aren't well represented in areas like investments and engineering...because, you know, girls aren't that good with "math and science" stuff - right?

There are times I read posts on the GB and laugh at the stupidity...and then there are times where I read takes like this and have real concern for the world that my two daughters will enter - because of the prehistoric thinking of posts like this.

[Raps in 4]

-By contrast, anything you see in the WNBA is stuff everyone here can do and has done. Layups- Check. Bounce Passes-Check. 3 Pointers from less than NBA distance-Check.

Because this is a basketball forum...

Go on a tennis forum, and everyone can do and has done everything women's tennis players do.

[Optms]

Men are good at certain things like leading countries and organizations, owning property, voting, getting an education and so on, right? Gender roles have helped men dominate for millennia. Only now are some of these barriers coming down.

Literately no one has said this, much less suggested it.

Please walk into any first grade classroom today and tell both genders they need to reverse roles for a week. See how well that goes.