Rapinoe vs Green... who you got?

[Johnlac1]

I read the tweets and they both made some good points. Green was listing ways Women's USA soccer can raise attention and therefore revenue for women's soccer; however, I believe Green is unaware of what team usa has done to gain the attention. And while I partial agree with Megan that the reason why women's soccer has gotten the funding it deserves is because of male dominated society, I do believe just because you throw money at something doesn't mean that it is just going to grow. Key example is the WNBA. At some point the product has to draw revenue it self. But I just hate how this makes Green look like a woman hater, the debate is truly about how to get attention for women's soccer. They are both on the same side.

Yeah if we want sustainable viewership for women's sports we can't do some half assed thing where we just throw extra money at them for a few years. There needs to be a cultivation of fandom for the sports, and I still that starts with targeting young people and developing strategies to get them interested in watching women's soccer or basketball. And then you also have to be patient and realize that it isn't going to change overnight, we probably need a few generations of slowly growing fans for women's sports.

You are absolutely correct. The fandom is the key for any product to grow and after I posted I was literally thinking about how women's soccer is still in it's infancy stage and still needs time to grow. Anyway, like everything this is a far more nuanced conversation than people think.

It is not society's role or duty to make people watch sports whether it's played by males or females. Nobody is owed a living.

[Johnlac1]

I read the tweets and they both made some good points. Green was listing ways Women's USA soccer can raise attention and therefore revenue for women's soccer; however, I believe Green is unaware of what team usa has done to gain the attention. And while I partial agree with Megan that the reason why women's soccer has gotten the funding it deserves is because of male dominated society, I do believe just because you throw money at something doesn't mean that it is just going to grow. Key example is the WNBA. At some point the product has to draw revenue it self. But I just hate how this makes Green look like a woman hater, the debate is truly about how to get attention for women's soccer. They are both on the same side.

Yeah if we want sustainable viewership for women's sports we can't do some half assed thing where we just throw extra money at them for a few years. There needs to be a cultivation of fandom for the sports, and I still that starts with targeting young people and developing strategies to get them interested in watching women's soccer or basketball. And then you also have to be patient and realize that it isn't going to change overnight, we probably need a few generations of slowly growing fans for women's sports.

This is one of the best posts of the thread, and I think gets at what Rapinoe is saying. It is not about salaries - it is about grass-roots investment in women's sports, as well as a cultural shift where women's sports receives both more funding and support, as well as an acknowlegement that girls need to be encouraged from early childhood that the sky is the limit for them, that they can do whatever they put their minds to, and that existing sexist beliefs about what is "appropriate" for them to pursue in life need to be brought out in the light and destroyed. As with the racial issues we have in our country, this won't happen overnight. It will take true generational change - as older people set in their racist/sexist ways die off (or, more hopefully, renounce those racist/sexist views) and girls see not only structures in place to pursue their dreams, as well as ENCOURAGEMENT of those dreams - as opposed to messaging that they are not biologically wired to be "competative" or that some areas of sports (or career pursuits) are more appropriate for boys/men.

It will take time...but it starts with the acknowedgment that sexism and an imbalanced playing exists in the first place.

Good grief, what baloney. Why don't you ask all your female friends why they don't watch women's sports like they love to watch chick shows, HGTV, cooking shows, and the ridiculous reality shows. I'd bet a very large percentage of the adult female population couldn't name one female soccer or WNBA player. Why don't you demand that they start watching women's sports, and see what kind of luck you have.

[tbhawksfan1]

After reading the tweets I think you are a trash poster for making Draymond look like woman hater. They were basically arguing how to make women's soccer better. They are on the same side.

Trash poster hunh?
I"m not trying to make Dray look like anything. Read an article, started a thread.
Don't worry though; I'll make no effort to change your mind

Other than the fact you provided very little detail of Dray's argument, I really don't know where you got Dray told Megan to basically shut up and dribble. If anything Dray told Megan to be more proactive in the marketing of women's soccer. I'm sorry for the personal attack, I just found what was posted very misleading.

I'm on RealGM, not a court of law. I don't take this stuff so seriously. The article said that Rapinoe wasn't happy with Dray's take and corrected him. My take is that Dray really didn't even need to get involved. That's it.

Apology accepted and sorry if my position was misleading. I just put it out there and let people contribute and make up their own mind. I'm very happy with a lot of the content in the thread. A lot of intelligent and reasonable discussion. Some not so much. C"est la vie

[Johnlac1]

I mean, Rapinoe's national teams are vastly superior to the US Men's national team.

A lot of the issue of popularity comes down to investment. If women's sport had the history of investment and promotion that mens' sport had had over the past century, there's no reason to believe it wouldn't be just as popular.

Ha, ha, ha, What do you think the score would be if the men's team played the women's team? 30-0 men probably.

[Johnlac1]

There were a lot of mods injecting their 2 cents without much initial poster drama. Hmm...interesting.
.

I think there is a chance this refers in part to me.

Not actually a mod of this forum, but I will say that I view the primary job of moderators as trying to facilitate quality discussion. So on boards I do moderate when I see topics that have the potential to get sideways me or another mod typically try and get in front of it rather than having to punish people after the fact--which is the worst part of the job.

It feels like you mean the above as a criticism which is fine, but I would argue that's the type of things mods should be doing, is being proactive rather than reactive. And you will see the GB Mods typically doing a great job of this because they definitely have a difficult job policing all of these topics.

And if they interject and then there is little to no drama, feels like they did a damn fine bit of moderating, no?

Moderation is necessary. It would be nice if the moderators were undercover somehow. That would be interesting.

I am not choosing sides, just want better outcomes. For the first years of the wnba, I watched all the way to the championship. IMHO, women's sports should be targeting men as the audience. There are many ways to do this and it should be explored.

Good grief...why is it incumbent on men to watch women's sports? Why don't you demand more women watch women's sports?

[Johnlac1]

the USA women soccer team is much better than the USA men soccer team which is a joke these days, the Women team should be paid more

Maybe you should read a book about basic economics.
For one thing claiming the women's soccer team is much better than the men's is most likely ludicrous, but that's beside the point.
People don't want to watch female soccer. I don't like to watch any soccer, men or women's. If it was up to me, all soccer players would have to get honest jobs when they came of age.
But that's beside the point too. Because a few billion people love to watch soccer...men's soccer. So male soccer players get paid a large chunk of money to kick a ball around a field for a few hours while scoring every other month.
Try to overcome your wokeness and understand that nobody deserves to be supported by society just because they perform a certain function. The function has to make other people happy to support that function. If they don't....tough.
So blaming sexism and misogyny for lack of interest in female sports is ridiculous. Why don't you ask your female woke feminist friends why they don't support women's sports.

In terms of U.S. viewership for the 2018 Men's World Cup final and the 2019 Women's World Cup final, the former drew in 11.4 million viewers compared to the latter's 14.3 million.

That's nice..so what? That still doesn't prove that the female players should be paid more. You know why? BECAUSE IF THEY WERE WORTH WHAT THEY WANTED, THEY'D BE PAID THAT MUCH!!!
But they aren't worth what they think they are.


awk

[a8bil]

Texas Chuck's early post sort of captured it all...so no need to read the intervening pages.

In a sense, they are both right. Women in a sport that does not draw the same revenue as men, i.e., the WNBA vs. the NBA should not be demanding the same absolute level of pay that men do, IMO. But that doesn't mean that they should not demand an equal, proportional revenue share. The issues get even more inexplicable in sports where the woman actually draw more than their male counterparts, i.e., soccer, which is Rapinoe's sport. The woman's national team has been the darling of international soccer for years, while the men are the international soccer equivalent of the G League. Yet, there remains a pay disparity in soccer in favor of men that just isn't right, and should be rectified, IMO. Dray (I imagine) has looked at the issue too narrowly...his mea culpa could have been better as well. To say that they both want the same thing, doesn't mean that you apologize for the original statement which diminished those fighting for equal treatment.

[Texas Chuck]

Good grief...why is it incumbent on men to watch women's sports? Why don't you demand more women watch women's sports?

he's decidedly not saying saying men have to watch women's sports at all. What he is saying is that the WNBA should look at men as a perspective market to tap as men consume far more sports than women do.

[bebopdeluxe]

Yeah if we want sustainable viewership for women's sports we can't do some half assed thing where we just throw extra money at them for a few years. There needs to be a cultivation of fandom for the sports, and I still that starts with targeting young people and developing strategies to get them interested in watching women's soccer or basketball. And then you also have to be patient and realize that it isn't going to change overnight, we probably need a few generations of slowly growing fans for women's sports.

This is one of the best posts of the thread, and I think gets at what Rapinoe is saying. It is not about salaries - it is about grass-roots investment in women's sports, as well as a cultural shift where women's sports receives both more funding and support, as well as an acknowlegement that girls need to be encouraged from early childhood that the sky is the limit for them, that they can do whatever they put their minds to, and that existing sexist beliefs about what is "appropriate" for them to pursue in life need to be brought out in the light and destroyed. As with the racial issues we have in our country, this won't happen overnight. It will take true generational change - as older people set in their racist/sexist ways die off (or, more hopefully, renounce those racist/sexist views) and girls see not only structures in place to pursue their dreams, as well as ENCOURAGEMENT of those dreams - as opposed to messaging that they are not biologically wired to be "competative" or that some areas of sports (or career pursuits) are more appropriate for boys/men.

It will take time...but it starts with the acknowedgment that sexism and an imbalanced playing exists in the first place.

Good grief, what baloney. Why don't you ask all your female friends why they don't watch women's sports like they love to watch chick shows, HGTV, cooking shows, and the ridiculous reality shows. I'd bet a very large percentage of the adult female population couldn't name one female soccer or WNBA player. Why don't you demand that they start watching women's sports, and see what kind of luck you have.

IDGAF what people watch. That is not the point here.

Do you know that in many parts of the world - certainly in both Europe and the Far East - women play in professional leagues in both soccer and basketball, and do OK. Not LeBron/Messi OK, but they make a decent living, playing the sport they love. Somehow, the economics work. A big part of that is sponsorships from industries and businesses in those countries (which is part of why uniforms look more like billboards in other parts of the world), but there are companies who believe it is in their best corporate interests to affiliate with women's sports.

What Rapinoe is asking is that, in this country, we invest in structures and promote women's involvement in sports so that both interest in participation grows and - more importantly - that girls can have role models that will inspire them to commit to these sports...which would eventually lead to more revenues to both continue to grow the sport as well as make it possible for these athletes not to have to go to China or Bulgaria to make a few bucks.

Your comments about women watching "HGTV, cooking shows and other reality shows" just confirm your misogynistic way of looking at things. I am both a long-time Eagles season ticket holder, a former Sixers season ticket holder, AND a viewer of "HGTV, cooking shows and the ridiculous reality shows". I assume you will respond with some snarky comment that I am "just like a woman"...which you will think is witty and cute...and will get a chuckle from others on this board. Just remember that when you hit "send" on your brilliant takedown of me that all you are doing is validating the sexist stereotypes that my two daughters will have to fight their way through.

[ArtMorte]

It's really simple. If your product makes money, you get paid. If it doesn't, you don't.

[Ducklett]

This is one of the best posts of the thread, and I think gets at what Rapinoe is saying. It is not about salaries - it is about grass-roots investment in women's sports, as well as a cultural shift where women's sports receives both more funding and support, as well as an acknowlegement that girls need to be encouraged from early childhood that the sky is the limit for them, that they can do whatever they put their minds to, and that existing sexist beliefs about what is "appropriate" for them to pursue in life need to be brought out in the light and destroyed. As with the racial issues we have in our country, this won't happen overnight. It will take true generational change - as older people set in their racist/sexist ways die off (or, more hopefully, renounce those racist/sexist views) and girls see not only structures in place to pursue their dreams, as well as ENCOURAGEMENT of those dreams - as opposed to messaging that they are not biologically wired to be "competative" or that some areas of sports (or career pursuits) are more appropriate for boys/men.

It will take time...but it starts with the acknowedgment that sexism and an imbalanced playing exists in the first place.

Good grief, what baloney. Why don't you ask all your female friends why they don't watch women's sports like they love to watch chick shows, HGTV, cooking shows, and the ridiculous reality shows. I'd bet a very large percentage of the adult female population couldn't name one female soccer or WNBA player. Why don't you demand that they start watching women's sports, and see what kind of luck you have.

IDGAF what people watch. That is not the point here.

Do you know that in many parts of the world - certainly in both Europe and the Far East - women play in professional leagues in both soccer and basketball, and do OK. Not LeBron/Messi OK, but they make a decent living, playing the sport they love. Somehow, the economics work. A big part of that is sponsorships from industries and businesses in those countries (which is part of why uniforms look more like billboards in other parts of the world), but there are companies who believe it is in their best corporate interests to affiliate with women's sports.

What Rapinoe is asking is that, in this country, we invest in structures and promote women's involvement in sports so that both interest in participation grows and - more importantly - that girls can have role models that will inspire them to commit to these sports...which would eventually lead to more revenues to both continue to grow the sport as well as make it possible for these athletes not to have to go to China or Bulgaria to make a few bucks.

Your comments about women watching "HGTV, cooking shows and other reality shows" just confirm your misogynistic way of looking at things. I am both a long-time Eagles season ticket holder, a former Sixers season ticket holder, AND a viewer of "HGTV, cooking shows and the ridiculous reality shows". I assume you will respond with some snarky comment that I am "just like a woman"...which you will think is witty and cute...and will get a chuckle from others on this board. Just remember that when you hit "send" on your brilliant takedown of me that all you are doing is validating the sexist stereotypes that my two daughters will have to fight their way through.

I hate to argue for the guy using stupid buzz words, but statistically HGTV's market share is a majority female... that isn't a sexist comment. There have been many reviews of the viewership that reveals their gender share and (from what I read) a much higher than average intelligence level including by the LA Times.

It is like if you said that League of Legends LCK is watched by mostly men (women make up ~33% of esports viewership) and I called you sexist.

[BK_2020]

The issues get even more inexplicable in sports where the woman actually draw more than their male counterparts, i.e., soccer, which is Rapinoe's sport. The woman's national team has been the darling of international soccer for years, while the men are the international soccer equivalent of the G League. Yet, there remains a pay disparity in soccer in favor of men that just isn't right, and should be rectified, IMO.

Men's world cup generates around $5 billion dollars in revenue. Women's world cup generates around $140 million.

[Mavrelous]

Texas Chuck's early post sort of captured it all...so no need to read the intervening pages.

In a sense, they are both right. Women in a sport that does not draw the same revenue as men, i.e., the WNBA vs. the NBA should not be demanding the same absolute level of pay that men do, IMO. But that doesn't mean that they should not demand an equal, proportional revenue share.

The lower the revenues, the bigger the portion of operating expenses from total budget, it makes sense that they get smaller piece of the pie.

The issues get even more inexplicable in sports where the woman actually draw more than their male counterparts, i.e., soccer, which is Rapinoe's sport. The woman's national team has been the darling of international soccer for years, while the men are the international soccer equivalent of the G League. Yet, there remains a pay disparity in soccer in favor of men that just isn't right, and should be rectified, IMO. Dray (I imagine) has looked at the issue too narrowly...his mea culpa could have been better as well. To say that they both want the same thing, doesn't mean that you apologize for the original statement which diminished those fighting for equal treatment.

The money really is in the domestic leagues in soccer, that's grossly misleading to take international women soccer as any indication to male soccer players salaries and pay.

[a8bil]

I think there is a chance this refers in part to me.

Not actually a mod of this forum, but I will say that I view the primary job of moderators as trying to facilitate quality discussion. So on boards I do moderate when I see topics that have the potential to get sideways me or another mod typically try and get in front of it rather than having to punish people after the fact--which is the worst part of the job.

It feels like you mean the above as a criticism which is fine, but I would argue that's the type of things mods should be doing, is being proactive rather than reactive. And you will see the GB Mods typically doing a great job of this because they definitely have a difficult job policing all of these topics.

And if they interject and then there is little to no drama, feels like they did a damn fine bit of moderating, no?

Moderation is necessary. It would be nice if the moderators were undercover somehow. That would be interesting.

I am not choosing sides, just want better outcomes. For the first years of the wnba, I watched all the way to the championship. IMHO, women's sports should be targeting men as the audience. There are many ways to do this and it should be explored.

Good grief...why is it incumbent on men to watch women's sports? Why don't you demand more women watch women's sports?

I'm not sure that question properly frames the issues. Look at a similar issue in a different context -- black actors and actresses have complained for years that Hollywood is white centric, meaning few, known talented writers writing scripts for black actors or writing black actors into key roles, few producers willing to financially support a film focused on black actors, few directors who know how to work with black actors, or how to not direct without overlaying lazy stereotypes... you get the idea. We know the talent is there -- look at Jamie Foxx or even J.Lo...both got their starts in the Wayans' black written, black produced and predominantly black acted, "In Living Color." They created that show because Hollywood wouldn't. Had they not, would we even know of Foxx or Lopez? Two of the bigger hollywood stars, nowadays. Michael B. Jordan? When Hollywood starts diversifying their offerings stars emerge.

There is an argument to be made that women's sports suffer the same lack of respect. Big networks don't buy the media rights, sports centers don't cover their play, corporate sponsors don't push the woman sports narratives. You can say that they are just voting with their dollars, but that's a cop out. In some sports (gymnastics, figure skating, tennis, soccer), women have shown they have star power, despite a relative lack of media attention.

And, I'll end my thoughts with this: As a father, uncle, and friend of friends with daughters who has watched girls sports for decades as they went from their first game through their collegiate careers, I know there are a ton of guys out there who really enjoy women's sports...I just won't wait up until 2:00 a.m. to watch it on ESPN the Ocho.

[a8bil]

Texas Chuck's early post sort of captured it all...so no need to read the intervening pages.

In a sense, they are both right. Women in a sport that does not draw the same revenue as men, i.e., the WNBA vs. the NBA should not be demanding the same absolute level of pay that men do, IMO. But that doesn't mean that they should not demand an equal, proportional revenue share.

The lower the revenues, the bigger the portion of operating expenses from total budget, it makes sense that they get smaller piece of the pie.

The issues get even more inexplicable in sports where the woman actually draw more than their male counterparts, i.e., soccer, which is Rapinoe's sport. The woman's national team has been the darling of international soccer for years, while the men are the international soccer equivalent of the G League. Yet, there remains a pay disparity in soccer in favor of men that just isn't right, and should be rectified, IMO. Dray (I imagine) has looked at the issue too narrowly...his mea culpa could have been better as well. To say that they both want the same thing, doesn't mean that you apologize for the original statement which diminished those fighting for equal treatment.

The money really is in the domestic leagues in soccer, that's grossly misleading to take international women soccer as any indication to male soccer players salaries and pay.

Go look at compensation for MNT and WNT and then let's talk. There is no reason for the disparity there. None.

[Rainwater]

Yeah if we want sustainable viewership for women's sports we can't do some half assed thing where we just throw extra money at them for a few years. There needs to be a cultivation of fandom for the sports, and I still that starts with targeting young people and developing strategies to get them interested in watching women's soccer or basketball. And then you also have to be patient and realize that it isn't going to change overnight, we probably need a few generations of slowly growing fans for women's sports.

You are absolutely correct. The fandom is the key for any product to grow and after I posted I was literally thinking about how women's soccer is still in it's infancy stage and still needs time to grow. Anyway, like everything this is a far more nuanced conversation than people think.

It is not society's role or duty to make people watch sports whether it's played by males or females. Nobody is owed a living.

I don't know who said anything about society being forced to do anything, lol. The issue at hand and what is being debated is marketability, the product it self, and proper funding.

[dc]

I don't know how to feel about this. On the one hand, women's sports are usually less competitive than men's and so they generate less revenue. But that is also a function of receiving much less funding.

Women's tennis has shown that pay equality can work. The women cannot compete with the men physically (obviously), but the quality of the women's matches is still very entertaining and draws strong viewership numbers.

Unlike basketball, women's tennis "looks" pretty much just like the men's game. So mainstream/casual observers will get a similar level of satisfaction or find it just as compelling as the men's game.

Women's soccer is probably less the case, but it still comes much closer to looking like the men's game than basketball. Volleyball would be another women's sport that pretty much "looks" the same as the men's, but of course the problem is that the men's game isn't really all that popular, either.

I don't know the entire spectrum of Rapinoe's views on women's sports, but she and the Women's National Team should learn how to drive a harder bargain with US Soccer. They shouldn't complain about the CBA they signed after the fact. Not saying they don't deserve more money, but they shouldn't have signed that CBA.

The WNBA is pretty much a money loser and the only reason the NBA hasn't pulled the plug on it is for PR reasons. They obviously would never say it, but they most likely regret starting that league.

[Mavrelous]

There are Olympic players in various sports who barely make a living from their pro sports, how much money do you think an Olympic swimmer, who didn't win and become a celebrity makes? It's an extremely hard and demanding career.
How much money do you think a power lifter makes? Do you know the investment, effort and time it takes? And it's still a very popular sport, many people follow it, many people make money from being celebrities in it (coaches, youtubers, nutrition specialists), but nothing crazy.
I understand the frustration, I just don't see the party that should come out and throw money at a certain sport at the expense of others.

[Rainwater]

Trash poster hunh?
I"m not trying to make Dray look like anything. Read an article, started a thread.
Don't worry though; I'll make no effort to change your mind

Other than the fact you provided very little detail of Dray's argument, I really don't know where you got Dray told Megan to basically shut up and dribble. If anything Dray told Megan to be more proactive in the marketing of women's soccer. I'm sorry for the personal attack, I just found what was posted very misleading.

I'm on RealGM, not a court of law. I don't take this stuff so seriously. The article said that Rapinoe wasn't happy with Dray's take and corrected him. My take is that Dray really didn't even need to get involved. That's it.

Apology accepted and sorry if my position was misleading. I just put it out there and let people contribute and make up their own mind. I'm very happy with a lot of the content in the thread. A lot of intelligent and reasonable discussion. Some not so much. C"est la vie

No, you are good. Again, I apologize.

[Cabbage bulls]

Moderation is necessary. It would be nice if the moderators were undercover somehow. That would be interesting.

I am not choosing sides, just want better outcomes. For the first years of the wnba, I watched all the way to the championship. IMHO, women's sports should be targeting men as the audience. There are many ways to do this and it should be explored.

Good grief...why is it incumbent on men to watch women's sports? Why don't you demand more women watch women's sports?

I'm not sure that question properly frames the issues. Look at a similar issue in a different context -- black actors and actresses have complained for years that Hollywood is white centric, meaning few, known talented writers writing scripts for black actors or writing black actors into key roles, few producers willing to financially support a film focused on black actors, few directors who know how to work with black actors, or how to not direct without overlaying lazy stereotypes... you get the idea. We know the talent is there -- look at Jamie Foxx or even J.Lo...both got their starts in the Wayans' black written, black produced and predominantly black acted, "In Living Color." They created that show because Hollywood wouldn't. Had they not, would we even know of Foxx or Lopez? Two of the bigger hollywood stars, nowadays. Michael B. Jordan? When Hollywood starts diversifying their offerings stars emerge.

There is an argument to be made that women's sports suffer the same lack of respect. Big networks don't buy the media rights, sports centers don't cover their play, corporate sponsors don't push the woman sports narratives. You can say that they are just voting with their dollars, but that's a cop out. In some sports (gymnastics, figure skating, tennis, soccer), women have shown they have star power, despite a relative lack of media attention.

And, I'll end my thoughts with this: As a father, uncle, and friend of friends with daughters who has watched girls sports for decades as they went from their first game through their collegiate careers, I know there are a ton of guys out there who really enjoy women's sports...I just won't wait up until 2:00 a.m. to watch it on ESPN the Ocho.

I don't know any man that will go out of their way to watch women's sports, unless somebody they are related to or know is playing. Maybe MMA and WWE? But those are intermingled, so you have to watch them. I guess I enjoy women's MMA. I wouldn't go out of my way to watch, though.