I think that the video is a good summary of the project overall, but I don't like the list itself. I don't find Bird to be even close to top 5 peaks ever for example and this is where Ben and I have clearly different conclusions about his defense and overall offensive impact.
I also don't think that Hakeem should be that much higher than Duncan. Well, actually I think that Duncan should be as high as Hakeem. I expected KG to be higher than Timmy, so it doesn't bother me as much as it would without the background. I don't get Curry rank to be honest. He's amazing, but with his durability problems he should get Walton's treatment in final evaluation. Of course I have Magic clearly ahead of him.
I'd have Shaq clearly lower than Ben, but it's another huge gap between us - I simply don't view Shaq as better offensively than Kareem and his defense is way too big of a problem to have him that high. Of course, I'm not surprised that Ben didn't consider Kareem as the GOAT peak but I always find it a bit frustrating...
Surprisingly, I like voters list more (I voted as well of course)
It was an amazing series though and I'm glad Ben did it. I hope he'll make more historical projects like this one in future.
Not to start some crap, but apparently there's some guy who's *also* called 70s Fan who was absolutely invaluable to the project for finding lots of old clips.
You need to find that guy and kick the snausage out of him. He sounds like bad news
"If you wish to see the truth, hold no opinions."
"Trust one who seeks the truth. Doubt one who claims to have found the truth."
70sFan wrote:I think that the video is a good summary of the project overall, but I don't like the list itself. I don't find Bird to be even close to top 5 peaks ever for example and this is where Ben and I have clearly different conclusions about his defense and overall offensive impact.
I also don't think that Hakeem should be that much higher than Duncan. Well, actually I think that Duncan should be as high as Hakeem. I expected KG to be higher than Timmy, so it doesn't bother me as much as it would without the background. I don't get Curry rank to be honest. He's amazing, but with his durability problems he should get Walton's treatment in final evaluation. Of course I have Magic clearly ahead of him.
I'd have Shaq clearly lower than Ben, but it's another huge gap between us - I simply don't view Shaq as better offensively than Kareem and his defense is way too big of a problem to have him that high. Of course, I'm not surprised that Ben didn't consider Kareem as the GOAT peak but I always find it a bit frustrating...
Surprisingly, I like voters list more (I voted as well of course)
It was an amazing series though and I'm glad Ben did it. I hope he'll make more historical projects like this one in future.
To me Bird also raised maybe the most questionmarks in that video; mainly because I kinda didn’t think the explanation was as fleshed-out as that placing would have warranted. All in all I really loved the series, and I can’t help but to feel a bit sad that it ended.
Not to start some crap, but apparently there's some guy who's *also* called 70s Fan who was absolutely invaluable to the project for finding lots of old clips.
You need to find that guy and kick the snausage out of him. He sounds like bad news
I've heard he has been doing quite a nice job recently
First, I know that I've been pretty critical of this series since the very beginning. There are some things I should mention.
I applaud Taylor for putting this much effort into a terrific series. If you do not care about rankings and comparisons, and take each video, each player on their merit, he did one hell of a job to put their qualities on display in analytical sense. The series is probably revelation and/or an enlightenment for many and I see that there are many people loved the series. Personally, I can not say I love the series in general because there was no revelation for me. For a person who does not make money out of it, one can say that I simply care and think too much about analytical basketball and put too much effort into it in the past. Aside from Bird's 3pt rate going down against good defenses I did not come across a meaningful nuance that made me say "well, I wasn't aware of that". And in nuances I disagreed with Taylor more often than not because he felt too inconsistent with skewing arguments in favour of players he already likes better. Those were like shaping the argument around the feeling.
I love that Taylor brought analytical basketball to a broad audience. I just couldn't love the series in general though because I'm already in a state of mind he wants to draw attention to. (Fwiw, there are singular episodes I definitely love such as Shaq, Hakeem and LeBron epsiodes.)
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AdagioPace wrote:I know its not in line with the general mood of this thread but I dont think I commit a sin If I consider the Realgm projects (both top 100 and peak proj) better than this one. (And prob the best on the internet). They seem like a better and more balanced blend of ideas, minds, styles and backgrounds. The most fascinating thing about realgm projects is exactly the lack of a dominant voice I believe. I feel that the need to develop a "signature" on the market, a personal "line", is a limitation. Thers only one thing that I really loved about Taylors project: fine capillary-like video analysis. The conclusions though....
In terms of basketball talk, RealGM takes the cake, yeah. I've been active on ElGee's Discord channel in the last 2 months and there are two things RealGM is definitely even better than that; - There are certain types of arguments get my nerves because some of people on there tend to shape their opinion around Taylor's criteria, thinking process and opinion. It feels like I discuss with people those have carbon copy of Taylor's opinion as opinion. News flash, as great and analytical as he is, Taylor is not free of biases or mistakes. In here, discussions definitely feel more open minded. - More than that, Discord's still an instant message app. Even though I enjoy discussing on there and the level is certainly far far better than any other social media as Reddit, Twitter, YouTube; you can not articulate your opinion well enough on there. At least not as well as this message board setting.
The conclusions were quite controversial and inconsistent. I mean he clarified that there are no time machines in the rankings then went onto say;
Spoiler:
- Looking at how well Garnett did in Boston, Garnett would be better than Duncan on an already good team with his better shooting range and passing abilities and that's why he'd rate Garnett higher. That's still an interpolation with some minor tweaks to time machine approach. (Also talking about Garnett's performances against the Lakers and not talking about Duncan's performances against the very same team? Please... Duncan against the Lakers in 2002 and 2003 in the playoffs; 28.5 pts, 3.5 oreb, 4.7 ast on .547 ts in 11 games, 6.7 obpm Garnett against the Lakers in 2003 and 2004 in the playoffs; 25.3 pts, 2.0 oreb, 4.8 ast on .529 ts in 12 games, 4.5 obpm) - There was no 3pt line for Kareem, so he wouldn't assume how well Kareem'd create an offense but he's going to put Kareem down for it. - Then Bird was ranked in the top 5 out of nowhere because how compatible his skill set was for modern play.
This is another inconsistency but not time machine argument related;
Spoiler:
- Duncan's postseason scoring volume and efficiency combo is closer to Olajuwon than Garnett. Olajuwon was a worse passer/facilitator/creator than Duncan. Why did Olajuwon not get the same treatment that Duncan did? Or why Duncan against Olajuwon did not get the same treatment that Garnett did against Duncan? https://i.gyazo.com/089ec34f79105a230e2c4139c3351c20.png Then there was an entire tier gap between Duncan and Olajuwon suddenly. Was Hakeem that better on either offense or defense to justify that gap?
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70sFan wrote:I think that the video is a good summary of the project overall, but I don't like the list itself.
If you look at in two players, to justify those selections (and not just for some, for all), as in following examples;
Spoiler:
Bird vs. Curry Bird vs. Garnett Bird vs. Duncan Bird vs. Magic
or
Spoiler:
Olajuwon vs. Bird Olajuwon vs. Abdul-Jabbar Olajuwon vs. Curry Olajuwon vs. Garnett Olajuwon vs. Duncan Olajuwon vs. Magic
The final list is quite inconsistent (Taylor's sense of offensive portability, better player on a better team, is an argument for Garnett over Duncan but not for Abdul-Jabbar over Olajuwon? That's a pretty big inconsistency right there). Thus a bad list for me.
The issue with per75 numbers; 36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins? The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine. Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
KTM_2813 wrote:While we all probably have our own quibbles with the final rankings, this was by far and away the best peaks project I've ever seen. It's probably the best historical basketball project on YouTube as well, unless I overlooked something. This is truly game-changing work, and I won't hesitate to call it an achievement in this day and age. Thinking Basketball is the GOAT.
Yea I also strongly disagree with the final ranking, but man this is probably one of the best in-depth, but also entertaining, basketball series I've watched on YouTube. Elgee provided the perfect blend of advanced statistical analyses with actual game footage, while also presenting it in a very enjoyable format for the audience. Crazy impressive.
KTM_2813 wrote:While we all probably have our own quibbles with the final rankings, this was by far and away the best peaks project I've ever seen. It's probably the best historical basketball project on YouTube as well, unless I overlooked something. This is truly game-changing work, and I won't hesitate to call it an achievement in this day and age. Thinking Basketball is the GOAT.
Yea I also strongly disagree with the final ranking, but man this is probably one of the best in-depth, but also entertaining, basketball series I've watched on YouTube. Elgee provided the perfect blend of advanced statistical analyses with actual game footage, while also presenting it in a very enjoyable format for the audience. Crazy impressive.
Curious, what other youtube series would you suggest that you think may be on this level? I need content to devour so I’m happy to watch anything that’s close to Taylor’s series.
KTM_2813 wrote:While we all probably have our own quibbles with the final rankings, this was by far and away the best peaks project I've ever seen. It's probably the best historical basketball project on YouTube as well, unless I overlooked something. This is truly game-changing work, and I won't hesitate to call it an achievement in this day and age. Thinking Basketball is the GOAT.
Yea I also strongly disagree with the final ranking, but man this is probably one of the best in-depth, but also entertaining, basketball series I've watched on YouTube. Elgee provided the perfect blend of advanced statistical analyses with actual game footage, while also presenting it in a very enjoyable format for the audience. Crazy impressive.
Curious, what other youtube series would you suggest that you think may be on this level? I need content to devour so I’m happy to watch anything that’s close to Taylor’s series.
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Well seeing you are following Ben Taylor on YouTube you are probably also following Coach Nick's BBALLBREAKDOWN channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSpvjDk06HLxBaw8sZw7SkA, perhaps not as in-depth when it comes to statistical analyses, but I like, you might have guessed it, how he breaks down actual game footage. He also covers the most recent games, so that's nice if you want to keep up to date. I haven't actually been watching much NBA games lately, since regular season doesn't hold my interest much anymore, so for me it's nice to have Coach Nick's videos in the background while I do some cooking for example. Other YouTube channels just for fun: SBNation/Secretbase (https://www.youtube.com/user/sbnation), tifobasketball (https://www.youtube.com/c/TifoBasketball/videos).
The most entertaining series I've watched that was on YouTube, but now has been removed, were the the 30 for 30 series covering the Magic-Bird rivalry, and the Bad Boy Pistons (https://www.veoh.com/watch/v75568021DP8NjS9p). No advanced statistical analyses, but definitely a must watch for any basketbal fan.
But yea Elgee videos/series are actually pretty unique all things considered.
"defensive impact of Shaq inflated because coaches had to play unskilled stiffs to slow him down"
I disagree with Ben.
That doesn't mean his defensive impact is inflated, it means his offensive impact trickles down to his defence.
Excellent point. If you warp a team so much in one area, that a weakness in another area is less relevant, that weakness is less relevant. You've broken the system in a way.
Only 7 Players in NBA history have 21,000 points, 5,750 assists and 5,750 rebounds. LeBron has double those numbers.
"defensive impact of Shaq inflated because coaches had to play unskilled stiffs to slow him down"
I disagree with Ben.
That doesn't mean his defensive impact is inflated, it means his offensive impact trickles down to his defence.
Excellent point. If you warp a team so much in one area, that a weakness in another area is less relevant, that weakness is less relevant. You've broken the system in a way.
This also questions to what extent we can separate offense from defense and vice versa when evaluating a player’s impact. Nice talking point which may warrant further discussion at some point.
letskissbro wrote:The one thing I was hoping for was that he'd break the unassailable peak Jordan cliche and go with LeBron at #1. He focused a lot on how their offensive differences and used the portability argument (which I'm a big critic of) to give Jordan the edge. But imo there's far more evidence to support LeBron having a not so insignificant edge on defense than there is for Jordan being the better offensive player.
I'm skeptical of his portability argument as well. For one it wasn't tested with Jordan. He never played with Wade level scorer, so it's all speculative how the two would mesh. Would Wade just defer to 26 year old ringless Jordan when he already had a FMVP. Would Jordan even try to let Wade be a Co #1 that first year. It seems plausible if not likely that Jordan and Wade spend the year vying for control and Wade ends up bitter because Jordan doesn't give him the shot.
But giving Jordan shots to Wade almost certainly lowers the team's offensive ceiling. The best scorer can't score evey possession; there is an equilibrium point where more scoring by the best player is counter productive and another where less scoring by that player is counter productive, and I'm not convinced that transferring Jordan possessions to Wade (or some other premiere scorer) is that great an idea.
When it comes to James it's playmaking not scoring that is at issue, but the same concept applies. Take playmaking opportunities from James and you're almost certainly putting them in the hands of someone who won't be as good as James was in that role. You drop below the equilibrium point with playmakimg volume by James.. Put James next to Paul or Nash instead of Irving or Wade and there's a good chance transferring playmaking to those guys improves the offense. This is because they are elite or maybe better than James in that area.
The biggest issue I have with portability with respect to James is that he is elite at almost everything, above league average at three point shooting (at least in his peak years 2012-14), and only rates low in the least efficient scoring skill set-mid range shooting. That's something you want to avoid anyway most of the time. Put him with an elite distributor or in a well developed offensive system and he would be a highly effective cutter and finisher. He flashes that potential here and there through the years, buy never played in a system or with a player that was great at distributing the ball in those kinds of spots.
You see a little of the flawed mindset when he talks about Magic. It's almost like he's saying that being an elite distributor is a bad thing because no one else can do it as well as the elite distributor so no matter what things get worse when distribution is taken from the elite distributor.
Only 7 Players in NBA history have 21,000 points, 5,750 assists and 5,750 rebounds. LeBron has double those numbers.
Great project and great effort for doing list (even if rankings are controversial)
My Peak List (after 1977):
1. Jordan 2. Shaq 3. Lebron 4. Kareem 5. Hakeem 6. Duncan 7. Bird 8. Magic 9. KG 10. Robinson
This is a list in a vacuum.
Heej wrote: These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them. falcolombardi wrote: Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan AEnigma wrote: Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
Strepbacter wrote:Taylor thinks Kobe could have been at #8 but these kids want to act like it's crazy to say his peak is top 15ish ever.
Hilarious stuff.
Not ever, since 1977. Ben would likely rank Russell, Wilt, Oscar and maybe Julius/West higher than Kobe.
If Kobe's most optimistic evaluation puts him ahead of TD/KG, it's not a stretch to say it may put him ahead of Wilt or Bill (and for sure the others too).
This place is a cesspool of mindless ineptitude, mental decrepitude, and intellectual lassitude. I refuse to be sucked any deeper into this whirlpool of groupthink sewage. My opinions have been expressed. I'm going to go take a shower.
