What is Jayson Tatum's ceiling?

[jumblin]

He's a very talented player, but he doesn't possess the intangibles to be a franchise cornerstone for a team that has championship aspirations.

Personally I'd trade him before the rest of the league figures out that he's just a stat machine and not a winner.

this is silly. but for the sake of argument. How many other "stat machine" players are verygood -great defenders. definitely not Prime Melo. Not Luka Doncic, Not R Westbrook. Not Dame Lillard and so on..

Those players you mentioned are very good comps for Tatum (with the exception of Donic). Great players who put up huge numbers and never win. Could Tatum grow into a great leader and winner? Possibly. But based on what we've seen, it seems more probable he will grow into a Harden/Westbrook type who puts up great numbers but never wins.

[soxfan2003]

He's a very talented player, but he doesn't possess the intangibles to be a franchise cornerstone for a team that has championship aspirations.

Personally I'd trade him before the rest of the league figures out that he's just a stat machine and not a winner.

this is silly. but for the sake of argument. How many other "stat machine" players are verygood -great defenders. definitely not Prime Melo. Not Luka Doncic, Not R Westbrook. Not Dame Lillard and so on..

Those players you mentioned are very good comps for Tatum (with the exception of Donic). Great players who put up huge numbers and never win. Could Tatum grow into a great leader and winner? Possibly. But based on what we've seen, it seems more probable he will grow into a Harden/Westbrook type who puts up great numbers but never wins.

Tatum isn't the problem. I predicted 2-3 years ago that a lot of Celtics fans would turn on Tatum/Brown if they ended up being placed in the #1 and #2 roles. Easy prediction to make. Tatum may not get much better than he has been this year but he is already good enough to be as good as most #2 players on a championship team. Why throw that out simply because the Celtics don't have anyone better?

If OKC wants to unload all of their picks that they have collected from other teams and their own picks for Tatum, I would do that in Ainge's shoes but I have a lot of patience and would only do such a trade knowing that I was giving up a top 10-15 player.

And I have a realistic perspective on the Celtics. I realize his 3 EC Finals appearances are not that impressive if one looks at it in context of who the Celtics actually beat/played. It is impressive that he was really polished player that contributed to winning as a rookie but the Celtics in the western conference would not have been going as deep in the playoffs.

Still Tatum is clearly the Celtics best wing player since Pierce. He is also a player that is rather easy to build with in the modern NBA. Someone like Wade at his best was better than Tatum but Wade didn't do a great job complimenting Lebron's game and Tatum with his 3 point shooting ability and all around shooting ability would have.

[jumblin]

this is silly. but for the sake of argument. How many other "stat machine" players are verygood -great defenders. definitely not Prime Melo. Not Luka Doncic, Not R Westbrook. Not Dame Lillard and so on..

Those players you mentioned are very good comps for Tatum (with the exception of Donic). Great players who put up huge numbers and never win. Could Tatum grow into a great leader and winner? Possibly. But based on what we've seen, it seems more probable he will grow into a Harden/Westbrook type who puts up great numbers but never wins.

Tatum isn't the problem. I predicted 2-3 years ago that a lot of Celtics fans would turn on Tatum/Brown if they ended up being placed in the #1 and #2 roles. Easy prediction to make. Tatum may not get much better than he has been this year but he is already good enough to be as good as most #2 players on a championship team. Why throw that out simply because the Celtics don't have anyone better?

If OKC wants to unload all of their picks that they have collected from other teams and their own picks for Tatum, I would do that in Ainge's shoes but I have a lot of patience and would only do such a trade knowing that I was giving up a top 10-15 player.

And I have a realistic perspective on the Celtics. I realize his 3 EC Finals appearances are not that impressive if one looks at it in context of who the Celtics actually beat/played. It is impressive that he was really polished player that contributed to winning as a rookie but the Celtics in the western conference would not have been going as deep in the playoffs.

Still Tatum is clearly the Celtics best wing player since Pierce. He is also a player that is rather easy to build with in the modern NBA. Someone like Wade at his best was better than Tatum but Wade didn't do a great job complimenting Lebron's game and Tatum with his 3 point shooting ability and all around shooting ability would have.

I agree Tatum's ideal role is that of a #2 on a championship level team. The question is, does Tatum accept that? If he would be a malcontent #2 than I'd rather trade him than continue to try and fool ourselves into thinking Tatum will take us to the promised land.

[soxfan2003]

He's a very talented player, but he doesn't possess the intangibles to be a franchise cornerstone for a team that has championship aspirations.

Personally I'd trade him before the rest of the league figures out that he's just a stat machine and not a winner.

this is silly. but for the sake of argument. How many other "stat machine" players are verygood -great defenders. definitely not Prime Melo. Not Luka Doncic, Not R Westbrook. Not Dame Lillard and so on..

Those players you mentioned are very good comps for Tatum (with the exception of Donic). Great players who put up huge numbers and never win. Could Tatum grow into a great leader and winner? Possibly. But based on what we've seen, it seems more probable he will grow into a Harden/Westbrook type who puts up great numbers but never wins.

Prime Westbrook better than Tatum on a bad/mediocre team but I'd rather have Tatum than Westbrook on a team going for a championship.

Tatum can be a #2 player to a team with Lebron/Jordan/KD/Curry in a number 1 role.
Westbrook really can't as easily. Not good enough to be the #1 player on most teams. Westbrook in place of Iverson on the defensive minded Philly squad would have been interesting but I only see Westbrook doing marginally better.

Tatum on a team with more scoring can play better defense... He has proven it. He won't be an elite Leonard like defender ever but a good one he has already shown he can do.

[Hal14]

He's a very talented player, but he doesn't possess the intangibles to be a franchise cornerstone for a team that has championship aspirations.

Personally I'd trade him before the rest of the league figures out that he's just a stat machine and not a winner.

this is silly. but for the sake of argument. How many other "stat machine" players are verygood -great defenders. definitely not Prime Melo. Not Luka Doncic, Not R Westbrook. Not Dame Lillard and so on..

Those players you mentioned are very good comps for Tatum (with the exception of Donic). Great players who put up huge numbers and never win. Could Tatum grow into a great leader and winner? Possibly. But based on what we've seen, it seems more probable he will grow into a Harden/Westbrook type who puts up great numbers but never wins.

Based on what I've seen? Dude, someone get this troll out of here. tatum is only 23..chill..

[Hal14]

this is silly. but for the sake of argument. How many other "stat machine" players are verygood -great defenders. definitely not Prime Melo. Not Luka Doncic, Not R Westbrook. Not Dame Lillard and so on..

Those players you mentioned are very good comps for Tatum (with the exception of Donic). Great players who put up huge numbers and never win. Could Tatum grow into a great leader and winner? Possibly. But based on what we've seen, it seems more probable he will grow into a Harden/Westbrook type who puts up great numbers but never wins.

Prime Westbrook better than Tatum on a bad/mediocre team but I'd rather have Tatum than Westbrook on a team going for a championship.

Tatum can be a #2 player to a team with Lebron/Jordan/KD/Curry in a number 1 role.
Westbrook really can't as easily. Not good enough to be the #1 player on most teams. Westbrook in place of Iverson on the defensive minded Philly squad would have been interesting but I only see Westbrook doing marginally better.

Tatum on a team with more scoring can play better defense... He has proven it. He won't be an elite Leonard like defender ever but a good one he has already shown he can do.

Was Kawhi elite at age 23? Hell no.GTFO.

[threrf23]

Was Kawhi elite at age 23? Hell no.GTFO.

He was at least a lot closer than people thought - at 22 he won Finals MVP and his teammates basically came out and said they knew he was elite, and were just waiting for him to show it.

(that's not literally what was said, but it was clear they held him in high regard)

[LarryBirdsFingr]

Add just a little sprinkle of KG fire and the sky is the limit.

[soxfan2003]

Those players you mentioned are very good comps for Tatum (with the exception of Donic). Great players who put up huge numbers and never win. Could Tatum grow into a great leader and winner? Possibly. But based on what we've seen, it seems more probable he will grow into a Harden/Westbrook type who puts up great numbers but never wins.

Prime Westbrook better than Tatum on a bad/mediocre team but I'd rather have Tatum than Westbrook on a team going for a championship.

Tatum can be a #2 player to a team with Lebron/Jordan/KD/Curry in a number 1 role.
Westbrook really can't as easily. Not good enough to be the #1 player on most teams. Westbrook in place of Iverson on the defensive minded Philly squad would have been interesting but I only see Westbrook doing marginally better.

Tatum on a team with more scoring can play better defense... He has proven it. He won't be an elite Leonard like defender ever but a good one he has already shown he can do.

Was Kawhi elite at age 23? Hell no.GTFO.

No Leonard wasn't elite by 23 years old. He was elite by 22 years old.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014

He was a Finals MVP by age 22 so his top 10 finish in regular season RPM that year wasn't exactly a statistical fluke. The next year in RPM, he was 7th league wide during regular season and only very slightly below Kevin Durant and James Harden. One year of RPM data can be kind of bogus but when you can finish 10th one year at 22, 7th another year at 23, make 2 NBA Finals and win Finals MVP.

Chances are you have been ELITE.

Even before he had everyone calling him a superstar, Popovich was comparing him to Kobe/Bird/Dr. J et cetera and Popovich doesn't easily praise his players.

In fact, I will go further and say, the Toronto Kahwi Leonard as an all around player wasn't really even as good as the 22-23 year old version. Better offensively? Sure I can kind of buy that but defensively no comparison at all. Young Leonard could run circles around the Toronto Leonard and probably just shutdown/absolutely dominate the older hobbled version if they ever played against each other. The younger Kahwi Leonard was better that what the Raptor's saw and most really knowledgeable Raptors fans would acknowledge that. And on a different team without HOF scorers like Duncan/Manu/Parker and some other decent scorers, at 22 Leonard would have been putting up 20 PPG with ease on around 25+ teams in the NBA. Spurs under Popovich different. Popovich all but admitted that he held Leonard's scoring back. Clearly, Pop didn't prioritize Leonard scoring that much so he could keep other players happy and save Leonard's energy to dominate on defense. Toronto Raptors different story/scenario. The Raptors with Gasol/Siakam/Lowry could defend very well even without Leonard having a huge burden on that end but they needed his scoring against the better playoff teams at least.

Leonard ended up peaking better than I expected on the offensive end as a shooter but he is actually an example of a player elite at a very young age. He just went to a team like the Spurs that was playing in the NBA finals twice in his first 3 years of his career and not some mediocre/bad team that would have allowed him to put up the all-star stats that don't necessarily win games.

All star games/all defensive teams are sometimes lagging indicators/popularity contests. David Lee making the all-star team over Steph Curry wasn't the only joke that I have seen.

[soxfan2003]

Was Kawhi elite at age 23? Hell no.GTFO.

He was at least a lot closer than people thought - at 22 he won Finals MVP and his teammates basically came out and said they knew he was elite, and were just waiting for him to show it.

(that's not literally what was said, but it was clear they held him in high regard)

Popovich was literally comparing him to all time greats. He basically was saying it was the public/media that was behind the curve.

Leonard was elite by 22-23 since defense is half the game. (Celtics are disappointing this year since the defense has fallen off a cliff.) The statistical evidence and post season accomplishments is just way too great to say that he wasn't elite by 22/23.

Finals MVP on its own doesn't mean you are elite since the wrong person can be awarded it or weird circumstance can make it happen. See Iggy who was still a very good player that had a great Finals series. Cedric Maxwell is another example of a really good player that won Finals MVP but wasn't truly elite.

But Finals MVP with 2 top 7-10 regular season finishes in RPM and your own coach calling you and all time great, you are flat out elite.

Popovich was only calling Leonard and mentioning him as a superstar since he recognized that he was already playing at that level/had that ability. It wasn't a projection. It was what he was showing all of the time.

Let's face it... If Tony Parker wasn't scoring, he couldn't make it up on the defensive end. Same held with Manu G to a lesser extent and Manu was a great offensive player. This is why Popovich quite reasonable held back Leonard's offense even though by 22 he really was very close if not as good as Tatum on the offensive end in terms of tools/what he could do. Much better defensively even though Tatum good to very good defender himself when he can focus on that end.

Leonard was competing for championships and took the Spurs to the championship level when no one really thought they would get back to that level. It really was all Leonard that did that. Yes, Duncan still great but Duncan because of his age was kind of left for dead until Leonard drafted and it turned out SAS had hit the jackpot.

[Feed Your Head]

I love the improvement finishing at the rim, last season he shot 62% within 3 feet, this year he’s up to 73%.

If you’re not going to get to the line a lot, you have to be an elite finisher, and he’s pretty much there.

[zoyathedestroya]

I love the improvement finishing at the rim, last season he shot 62% within 3 feet, this year he’s up to 73%.

If you’re not going to get to the line a lot, you have to be an elite finisher, and he’s pretty much there.

Still need to up the volume. He's below league average in the rate he's taking threes, FTs, and shots at the rim. Not ideal in modern game. His insistence on taking midrangers is keeping him from being a truly elite and efficient scorer in this league.

[31to6]

He'd instantly be a 30 point scorer if he could stop missing all of his shots in the first quarter lol. It's fun to watch him get cooking over the course of the game but it would be more fun if he'd cook for the entire game.

Heck, he'd be a 50 point scorer if he could stop missing, smdh.

LOOK WHAT YOU DID

[cloverleaf]

He'd instantly be a 30 point scorer if he could stop missing all of his shots in the first quarter lol. It's fun to watch him get cooking over the course of the game but it would be more fun if he'd cook for the entire game.

Heck, he'd be a 50 point scorer if he could stop missing, smdh.

LOOK WHAT YOU DID

His shots of course did go down early last night and he was aggressive to the hoop from the start.

But his ceiling still is that he "gets it" and becomes a multi-championship league MVP.

[Homerclease]

Some serious mental gymnastics going on in this thread

[bisme37]

Figured I'd put evidence of his career night here...

Watch on YouTube

[Feed Your Head]

I love the improvement finishing at the rim, last season he shot 62% within 3 feet, this year he’s up to 73%.

If you’re not going to get to the line a lot, you have to be an elite finisher, and he’s pretty much there.

Still need to up the volume. He's below league average in the rate he's taking threes, FTs, and shots at the rim. Not ideal in modern game. His insistence on taking midrangers is keeping him from being a truly elite and efficient scorer in this league.

Will do a deep dive once I’m home from work, but at least to the eye, it seems as though he’s significantly upped his threes and shots at the rim over the last few weeks.

Now he just needs to keep it up.

[Feed Your Head]

Some serious mental gymnastics going on in this thread

What kind of sample is there on the mental gymnastics?

[cl2117]

I don't know where to put this, but Tatum is too slow to bring the ball up. He's basically risking an 8 second violation 50% of the time.

I just don't see a benefit in wasting 1/3 of the shot clock walking it up and not even being in a set. It's a little thing, but I'm sure it'll occasionally bite us on the ass with shot clock violations and poor shots.

In general I think his calmness is a huge advantage, but I'd like to see him play with pace more often. Games we've been down significantly in, he's turned a switch to get us back in it, but I'd like to see that regardless of the score. He's got the talent to be that aggressive all the time.

[Feed Your Head]

I don't know where to put this, but Tatum is too slow to bring the ball up. He's basically risking an 8 second violation 50% of the time.

I just don't see a benefit in wasting 1/3 of the shot clock walking it up and not even being in a set. It's a little thing, but I'm sure it'll occasionally bite us on the ass with shot clock violations and poor shots.

In general I think his calmness is a huge advantage, but I'd like to see him play with pace more often. Games we've been down significantly in, he's turned a switch to get us back in it, but I'd like to see that regardless of the score. He's got the talent to be that aggressive all the time.

It’s a big pet peeve of mine, I genuinely worry that we will get 8 second violations at least once a game.