2020-2021 College/Draft Thread 2

[knickstape4ever]

They traded Wendell Carter Jr. and two first round picks for a 30 year old center who doesn't move the needle for them. I think if they were more patient they could have done better with those assets even use Lauri as part of a bigger trade for better value overall.

I'm a big Wendell fan, but he wasn't playing well. I just don't see the 9th/10th pick being used on a player who'd have the same impact as Vuc for the next few years

But what impact does Vuc actually have?

A scoring center who can't really protect the rim or defend in space puts a ceiling on his team. Before you bring up Jokic, he is a complete outlier and in a different stratosphere than Vuc entirely.

I think that trade was a major W for Orlando and a big fat L for Chicago.

They lost one talented young player and TWO shots at adding quality talent on their roster via the draft for what. The 8th seed next year?

Vuc is a fringe All-Star who doesn't really impact games and who's on the wrong side of 30. Plus, as a Euro, I don't think his presence on the team has the same pull for Lavine as a Randle would have for instance. Maybe Lavine helped him settle in Chicago simply because he's a good teammate, and there really isn't more to it. We'll see if that energy's still there when Chicago struggle to make the playoffs next year.

The Bulls are a mess.

Vuc was a big reason for the Magic being decent for the past few seasons. does he have flaws, yes, but he's a legit 2nd scoring option that they didn't have before. Wendell Carter was really struggling, esp. on offense and they were relying on Lauri and Coby to be their 2nd option (neither are good enough/consistent)

as I've been saying, I just don't think the impact of the 10th pick in the draft is gonna have the same impact as Vuc

let's see how it plays out w/ the Bulls. they've had some tough opponents since the trade which skews the W-L record. i think they can still make a playoff push and in the offseason, they'll still have cap space to add + they could get lucky in the lottery

[cgf]

Just took a peak at tankathon to kind of get an idea of what the lotto looks like corrently and realized that Orlando currently has two top 10 picks thanks to the Bulls. What were the Bulls thinking with that awful trade? They still suck and gave up a bunch of assets for Vucevic who hasn't made them any better and is over 30? Anyway nice job Orlando, they even have a high 2nd rounder this year.

Being unable to make progress with Lavine & their kids alone, they wanted to do something to try to convince Lavine to stay before getting to the point where they would need to trade him before his value started to fall if he was intending on dipping...which kinda makes sense, and I can squint hard enough to see Vuc as a good fit for Lavine & PWill offensively; a big man whose skill & intelligence could help Lavine's ongoing evolution into a premier scorer and PWill's (still very early) development. While the pricetag wasn't particularly onerous unless the absolute worst-case scenario happens with those picks.

...but yeah, that was a dubious move off the bat and is looking like the wrong move to try & jumpstart things already. We'll see how things work out for them; maybe Lavine doesn't care about "growing pains" while they mesh and playing with Vuc after they've had an offseason together will have him excited to stay here...and maybe with a Zach-Vuc veteran duo leading the way, PWill will be able to reach his full potential and become the kind of franchise guy who can make that a competitive troika once they get the right coach & supporting cast.

Though atm that's looking doubtful.

So if they don't make the playoffs what exactly did that trade accomplish for them? We're talking about them missing the playoffs in the weak East and regardless of what value you think will or won't come out of the pick, they are basically right where they were before the trade except with less draft capital and a 30 year old center on a max deal.

If playing with Vuc once they've had an offseason to mesh, gets Lavine excited about re-signing in Chicago? Everything. Especially if, in the process, they put Patrick Williams in a better position to make good on his potential. I'm dubious of just how good they can become building around that trio unless even I am under-rating Williams and he reaches that potential insanely fast.

But, depending on what they do with Markkanen & White, there's a path to building a regular playoff team that could be just 1 move away...especially if Lavine continues to improve.

[3toheadmelo]

Hopefully the bulls keep losing and lavine wants out of there

[cgf]

I'm a big Wendell fan, but he wasn't playing well. I just don't see the 9th/10th pick being used on a player who'd have the same impact as Vuc for the next few years

But what impact does Vuc actually have?

A scoring center who can't really protect the rim or defend in space puts a ceiling on his team. Before you bring up Jokic, he is a complete outlier and in a different stratosphere than Vuc entirely.

I think that trade was a major W for Orlando and a big fat L for Chicago.

They lost one talented young player and TWO shots at adding quality talent on their roster via the draft for what. The 8th seed next year?

Vuc is a fringe All-Star who doesn't really impact games and who's on the wrong side of 30. Plus, as a Euro, I don't think his presence on the team has the same pull for Lavine as a Randle would have for instance. Maybe Lavine helped him settle in Chicago simply because he's a good teammate, and there really isn't more to it. We'll see if that energy's still there when Chicago struggle to make the playoffs next year.

The Bulls are a mess.

Vuc was a big reason for the Magic being decent for the past few seasons. does he have flaws, yes, but he's a legit 2nd scoring option that they didn't have before. Wendell Carter was really struggling, esp. on offense and they were relying on Lauri and Coby to be their 2nd option (neither are good enough/consistent)

as I've been saying, I just don't think the impact of the 10th pick in the draft is gonna have the same impact as Vuc

let's see how it plays out w/ the Bulls. they've had some tough opponents since the trade which skews the W-L record. i think they can still make a playoff push and in the offseason, they'll still have cap space to add + they could get lucky in the lottery

Yeah, I liked WCJ coming out and congratulated my bff when they drafted him, but he just hasn't been that neo-Horford he looked like at Duke and hasn't shown nearly the progress you'd have hoped to see...especially for a team trying desperately to take that first step out of sucking / tanking into proper rebuilding.

I'm skeptical about how competitive a team with Lavine & Vuc leading them can be defensively, despite Lavine's improvement on that end...at least without Williams managing to absolutely shatter my (already high) expectations, while their FO manages to surround that trio with 3&D guys who really excel at the D-part. But I thought the pricetag was perfectly fair for Vuc and I can see having those two leading things on the offensive end, being a good environment for Williams to develop in...if they follow it up well in the offseason.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Just took a peak at tankathon to kind of get an idea of what the lotto looks like corrently and realized that Orlando currently has two top 10 picks thanks to the Bulls. What were the Bulls thinking with that awful trade? They still suck and gave up a bunch of assets for Vucevic who hasn't made them any better and is over 30? Anyway nice job Orlando, they even have a high 2nd rounder this year.

It was a panic move to try to entice Lavine to stay. He put up 50 points last night and they still lost. What makes it even worse they’re giving up another pick on top of this lottery pick. That roster still stinks even with Vuc and basically no way to upgrade it either. They’ve really made our life much easier if we’re planning to target Lavine next year in free agency.

Read on Twitter

the picks are protected

late lotto picks aren't likely gonna have the same impact as Vuc, who's an all-star

if the Bulls don't make the playoffs, that pick is gonna be in the 9-11 range. currently ESPN has Franz Wagner, Scottie Barnes, and Isaiah Jackson as players 9-11. Vuc is a higher impact player than any of those guys right away. Barnes has some nice upside, but he's also got a major hole in his game (shooting). for the next 2-3 years, Vuc likely makes them better than anyone taken in that range

Lavine saying a nice thing to the player that just became his teammate doesn’t really mean that much to me. I mean what else is he supposed to do or say? It’s pretty rare to hear any players criticize a move the front office makes right after it happens. I don’t think that’s a sign that he’s not going to test free agency. Especially if they end up missing the playoffs the next two years.

You’re probably right about the Vuc being better than who ever they draft in the late lottery but if He’s not good enough to make LaVine stay, you’re just with a declining fringe all star on the wrong side of 30.

[Chanel Bomber]

I'm a big Wendell fan, but he wasn't playing well. I just don't see the 9th/10th pick being used on a player who'd have the same impact as Vuc for the next few years

But what impact does Vuc actually have?

A scoring center who can't really protect the rim or defend in space puts a ceiling on his team. Before you bring up Jokic, he is a complete outlier and in a different stratosphere than Vuc entirely.

I think that trade was a major W for Orlando and a big fat L for Chicago.

They lost one talented young player and TWO shots at adding quality talent on their roster via the draft for what. The 8th seed next year?

Vuc is a fringe All-Star who doesn't really impact games and who's on the wrong side of 30. Plus, as a Euro, I don't think his presence on the team has the same pull for Lavine as a Randle would have for instance. Maybe Lavine helped him settle in Chicago simply because he's a good teammate, and there really isn't more to it. We'll see if that energy's still there when Chicago struggle to make the playoffs next year.

The Bulls are a mess.

Vuc was a big reason for the Magic being decent for the past few seasons. does he have flaws, yes, but he's a legit 2nd scoring option that they didn't have before. Wendell Carter was really struggling, esp. on offense and they were relying on Lauri and Coby to be their 2nd option (neither are good enough/consistent)

as I've been saying, I just don't think the impact of the 10th pick in the draft is gonna have the same impact as Vuc

let's see how it plays out w/ the Bulls. they've had some tough opponents since the trade which skews the W-L record. i think they can still make a playoff push and in the offseason, they'll still have cap space to add + they could get lucky in the lottery

Yet Vuc himself was the 16th pick overall, and the Magic now have 3 shots at finding equivalent or better talent via player development or through the draft.

Vuc was definitely the reason why the Magic were decent the last few years. But with better talent around him, he might also be the reason why his team would stay decent instead of making a leap to being legitimately good because of his limitations.

If the Bulls miss the playoffs then this season is a total failure. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they made it to the playoffs through the play-in tournament.

Is there a pathway to them becoming a good Eastern Conference team though? I don't think so, and I think Vuc's limitations on defense will have a lot to do with that. Carter isn't a rim protector either, but he projects as a much better defender down the line and in my personal opinion a better all-around center long-term.

I guess we'll see. If I had to bet, I think 5 years from now the Magic will be higher in the Eastern Conference standings than the Bulls and in a far better position overall with a lot of lottery talent, WCJ, Fultz and Isaac.

[cgf]

the pick is top 4 protected

I don't think it's an awful trade at all considering that if the Bulls end up in the lottery, they still have a shot at a top 4 pick. and if they don't land a top 4 pick, chances are that whoever the Magic take at 9/10 is not gonna have the same type of impact that Vuc will have

What impact did Vuc provide though? Orlando looks about the same as they did before trading him and Chicago looks the same, maybe even worse now especially defensively, as they did before getting him. Orlando should have started their rebuild sooner, I thought they waited too long but they finally came to their senses and made the obvious move. Chicago, terrible move. If they were a piece away I'd get it but they weren't and should have just waited for a better player to put their chips in for. They need to hope that the pick somehow jumps into the top 4 and there's a very slim chance that happens.

Vuc is a legit 2nd option. before they didn't have one. some nights it would be Lauri, some nights Coby, but both are too inconsistent

Bulls will get better. they're still learning to play w/ each other after adding 3 new rotation players

realistically is the player selected at 9/10 gonna have the same impact as Vuc? probably not, especially not over the next 2-3 years

Not to mention that Lauri's looking likely to end up as trade bait...and if Bulls fans are lucky, so will Coby before he gets paid. I rate Patrick Williams very highly and Lavine's growth speaks for itself, but the rest of the "young core" that the Bulls entered the season with, left a lot to be desired...Wendell disappointing all around, Coby & Lauri continuing to be sieves defensively as well as super streaky scorers with questionable vision.

Cashing in on those kids to put a competitive team around Lavine & Williams, could put a good team back in the United Center...as the Blackhawks are struggling through a rebuild right now as well...and give Lavine a good reason to stay.

[SmoothLefty21]

I saw that Jeremiah Robinson-Earl declared and will sign with an agent. I'd love to add him with DAL's pick. Super smart, skilled 6'9' guy who knows how to play the game. Not an explosive athlete but I think he'll be a wonderful role player. He's got a pretty stroke and his 3PT% should rise in the NBA.

[jvsimonetti0514]

What impact did Vuc provide though? Orlando looks about the same as they did before trading him and Chicago looks the same, maybe even worse now especially defensively, as they did before getting him. Orlando should have started their rebuild sooner, I thought they waited too long but they finally came to their senses and made the obvious move. Chicago, terrible move. If they were a piece away I'd get it but they weren't and should have just waited for a better player to put their chips in for. They need to hope that the pick somehow jumps into the top 4 and there's a very slim chance that happens.

Vuc is a legit 2nd option. before they didn't have one. some nights it would be Lauri, some nights Coby, but both are too inconsistent

Bulls will get better. they're still learning to play w/ each other after adding 3 new rotation players

realistically is the player selected at 9/10 gonna have the same impact as Vuc? probably not, especially not over the next 2-3 years

Not to mention that Lauri's looking likely to end up as trade bait...and if Bulls fans are lucky, so will Coby before he gets paid. I rate Patrick Williams very highly and Lavine's growth speaks for itself, but the rest of the "young core" that the Bulls entered the season with, left a lot to be desired...Wendell disappointing all around, Coby & Lauri continuing to be sieves defensively as well as super streaky scorers with questionable vision.

Cashing in on those kids to put a competitive team around Lavine & Williams, could put a good team back in the United Center...as the Blackhawks are struggling through a rebuild right now as well...and give Lavine a good reason to stay.

That’s a good point about packaging up Coby and Lauri for something else. I think that’s what they need to do if they’re trying to get Lavine to stay. I’m not really sure who’s available or what those two guys can get but that’s what needs to be done for Bulls to keep him. I hope they can’t do it cuz I want LaVine here.

It might be a homer take but I think our roster has more to offer him than the bulls one does. Our all star is the same age as him and theirs isn’t. RJ is definitely going to be a 20 point scorer next year too. That might be a 2 or 3 years away for Williams. IQ and Mitch are up and coming as well. Even Obi is finally showing some signs of life. That’s all before we using potentially 4 picks in the next draft.

[cgf]

I want Mooses Moody/James Bouknight and Jared Butler. if we’re hovering around 15-20 with our pick, we can definitely package the Pistons second and our pick to move and take Bouknight.

Mike Conley — Jared Butler
James Bouknight — Immanuel Quickley
R.J. Barrett — Alec Burks
Julius Randle — Obi Toppin
Mitchell Robinson — Nerlens Noel

What a great organization we’ve become the fact that we could pull this off

Both FRPs, the Pistons SRP, our cavalcade of future SRPs, Knox, Frank, capspace...there's quite a bit of ammo for the FO to work with if they want to move around to secure their guys, without burning any future FRPs or regular rotation guys. Hopefully, between the Mavs pick & all of the ammo we have to move up from the Pistons pick, we can snag Butler...assuming that Keon Johnson's risen too high for us to get without packaging both FRPs & Mitch/Obi.


And -- although I'd be thrilled with any of Moody, Bouknight (or Ziaire)...I'm skeptical that any of them would start for us early. Moody probably would have the best chance, since his game just needs to be adapt to NBA players and the NBA 3-pt line...rather than needing to develop his body (like Ziaire) or parts of his game that aren't currently there (like Bouknight), as well as adapting his games to the next level...but even Moody would almost certainly be coming off the bench, barring injuries, until he earned Thibs' trust.


Quickley, OTOH, I think has a legitimate shot of starting next season if his consistency takes that year-2-leap. Especially if all we end up doing at PG this offseason is bringing Rose back & drafting someone like Butler...which I'm kind of expecting...and/or IQ's consistency as a scorer improving, allows him to display/develop more of his ability to create for others.

I know that that's not how he's being used atm, but Thibs uses players differently when he's no longer also trying to hedge against those rookie growing pains...and I think IQ's year-2 leap will let him make that jump from kid-Thibs-likes to one of "Thibs' guys"; as long as he keeps working as hard & doesn't pull a Shumpert.

[Chanel Bomber]

Vuc is a legit 2nd option. before they didn't have one. some nights it would be Lauri, some nights Coby, but both are too inconsistent

Bulls will get better. they're still learning to play w/ each other after adding 3 new rotation players

realistically is the player selected at 9/10 gonna have the same impact as Vuc? probably not, especially not over the next 2-3 years

Not to mention that Lauri's looking likely to end up as trade bait...and if Bulls fans are lucky, so will Coby before he gets paid. I rate Patrick Williams very highly and Lavine's growth speaks for itself, but the rest of the "young core" that the Bulls entered the season with, left a lot to be desired...Wendell disappointing all around, Coby & Lauri continuing to be sieves defensively as well as super streaky scorers with questionable vision.

Cashing in on those kids to put a competitive team around Lavine & Williams, could put a good team back in the United Center...as the Blackhawks are struggling through a rebuild right now as well...and give Lavine a good reason to stay.

That’s a good point about packaging up Coby and Lauri for something else. I think that’s what they need to do if they’re trying to get Lavine to stay. I’m not really sure who’s available or what those two guys can get but that’s what needs to be done for Bulls to keep him. I hope they can’t do it cuz I want LaVine here.

It might be a homer take but I think our roster has more to offer him than the bulls one does. Our all star is the same age as him and theirs isn’t. RJ is definitely going to be a 20 point scorer next year too. That might be a 2 or 3 years away for Williams. IQ and Mitch are up and coming as well. Even Obi is finally showing some signs of life. That’s all before we using potentially 4 picks in the next draft.

I agree.

We're in a far better position than the Bulls imo.

The Bulls have surrounded Lavine with players that don't mask his weaknesses. In fact, they've traded the only young player outside of Patrick Williams who had some upside as a defensive player. Vucevic, Markkanen, White... None of those guys can cover for Lavine. And in Vuc they have a co-star who doesn't even fit his timeline.

Also the Bulls are a perfect example of a team that let the value of its young players crumble and will now have to overpay its own underachieving players (sunk costs) or let them go for nothing when they could've gotten something in return for them had they done something earlier. The Bulls should have traded Markkanen long ago and kept WCJ.

Now Markkanen doesn't fit with Vuc, is gonna be a RFA, and doesn't have much value around the league now that it's obvious that he's a bench piece and not a future star.

[cgf]

Not to mention that Lauri's looking likely to end up as trade bait...and if Bulls fans are lucky, so will Coby before he gets paid. I rate Patrick Williams very highly and Lavine's growth speaks for itself, but the rest of the "young core" that the Bulls entered the season with, left a lot to be desired...Wendell disappointing all around, Coby & Lauri continuing to be sieves defensively as well as super streaky scorers with questionable vision.

Cashing in on those kids to put a competitive team around Lavine & Williams, could put a good team back in the United Center...as the Blackhawks are struggling through a rebuild right now as well...and give Lavine a good reason to stay.

That’s a good point about packaging up Coby and Lauri for something else. I think that’s what they need to do if they’re trying to get Lavine to stay. I’m not really sure who’s available or what those two guys can get but that’s what needs to be done for Bulls to keep him. I hope they can’t do it cuz I want LaVine here.

It might be a homer take but I think our roster has more to offer him than the bulls one does. Our all star is the same age as him and theirs isn’t. RJ is definitely going to be a 20 point scorer next year too. That might be a 2 or 3 years away for Williams. IQ and Mitch are up and coming as well. Even Obi is finally showing some signs of life. That’s all before we using potentially 4 picks in the next draft.

I agree.

We're in a far better position than the Bulls imo.

The Bulls have surrounded Lavine with players that don't mask his weaknesses. In fact, they've traded the only young player outside of Patrick Williams who had some upside as a defensive player. Vucevic, Markkanen, White... None of those guys can cover for Lavine. And in Vuc they have a co-star who doesn't even fit his timeline.

Also the Bulls are a perfect example of a team that let the value of its young players crumble and will now have to overpay its own underachieving players (sunk costs) or let them go for nothing when they could've gotten something in return for them had they done something earlier. The Bulls should have traded Markkanen long ago and kept WCJ.

Now Markkanen doesn't fit with Vuc, is gonna be a RFA, and doesn't have much value around the league now that it's obvious that he's a bench piece and not a future star.

I agree as well, but there's something to be said for a guy liking where he's at...if he does actually like living in the Chicagoland area / being a Bull...and I'm not sure that the roster difference would seem that significant to Lavine even beyond that typical homerism that many professional athletes display towards their team-mates.

Like I can totally imagine him viewing Vucevic & Williams as comparable core pieces for him to build with to Randle & Barrett...regardless of which one we prefer or will end up actually being better moving forward.
- Vuc & Julius both being lower-level Allstar-Bigs, who should ideally be 2nd options & aren't defensive anchors; it's not a stretch for someone to put them in the same tier.
- Patrick Williams & Rowan Jr both being recent top 5 pick wings, whose games are very mature for their ages, have good vision, bring it on the defensive end, and sharing Zach's no-nonsense mindset; wouldn't exactly make it surprising if someone -- especially someone who sees Williams' on a daily basis -- thought they had comparable talent/potential.

And if Lavine does see Vuc/PWill v Julius/RJB as more or less a wash; then it wouldn't exactly be shocking if he did not think that the gap between Mitch, IQ, etc. and Markannen, White, etc. was big enough to convince him to leave a place he's happy at. Again, I'd disagree with him...as I think the gap between our supporting casts & tradebait is more decisive than the gap between Julius/Rowan & Vuc/Pat...but it's an opinion that I can see why Lavine would hold.

[HEZI]

Vuc is a legit 2nd option. before they didn't have one. some nights it would be Lauri, some nights Coby, but both are too inconsistent

Bulls will get better. they're still learning to play w/ each other after adding 3 new rotation players

realistically is the player selected at 9/10 gonna have the same impact as Vuc? probably not, especially not over the next 2-3 years

They traded Wendell Carter Jr. and two first round picks for a 30 year old center who doesn't move the needle for them. I think if they were more patient they could have done better with those assets even use Lauri as part of a bigger trade for better value overall.

if they don't make the playoffs, they'd still have a shot in the lottery to land a top 4 pick. the franchise-changing talent is 1-5, and that's what the Bulls are basically saying when they made the trade: if Vuc helps them make the playoffs, great, if not still retain the chances of landing one of the top draft talents. the trade signified they also don't think a late lotto pick would have the same impact as Vuc

Vucevic is just their new Carlos Boozer and that team with Boozer was just much better so I dont think this trade made sense for them at this time. Their defense looks like the worst in the league and their window to improve just got smaller. They should have at least went after Lonzo and tried to add him. Especially since they didnt mind giving up assets. He was available and would have helped them a lot.

[Chanel Bomber]

That’s a good point about packaging up Coby and Lauri for something else. I think that’s what they need to do if they’re trying to get Lavine to stay. I’m not really sure who’s available or what those two guys can get but that’s what needs to be done for Bulls to keep him. I hope they can’t do it cuz I want LaVine here.

It might be a homer take but I think our roster has more to offer him than the bulls one does. Our all star is the same age as him and theirs isn’t. RJ is definitely going to be a 20 point scorer next year too. That might be a 2 or 3 years away for Williams. IQ and Mitch are up and coming as well. Even Obi is finally showing some signs of life. That’s all before we using potentially 4 picks in the next draft.

I agree.

We're in a far better position than the Bulls imo.

The Bulls have surrounded Lavine with players that don't mask his weaknesses. In fact, they've traded the only young player outside of Patrick Williams who had some upside as a defensive player. Vucevic, Markkanen, White... None of those guys can cover for Lavine. And in Vuc they have a co-star who doesn't even fit his timeline.

Also the Bulls are a perfect example of a team that let the value of its young players crumble and will now have to overpay its own underachieving players (sunk costs) or let them go for nothing when they could've gotten something in return for them had they done something earlier. The Bulls should have traded Markkanen long ago and kept WCJ.

Now Markkanen doesn't fit with Vuc, is gonna be a RFA, and doesn't have much value around the league now that it's obvious that he's a bench piece and not a future star.

I agree as well, but there's something to be said for a guy liking where he's at...if he does actually like living in the Chicagoland area / being a Bull...and I'm not sure that the roster difference would seem that significant to Lavine even beyond that typical homerism that many professional athletes display towards their team-mates.

Like I can totally imagine him viewing Vucevic & Williams as comparable core pieces for him to build with to Randle & Barrett...regardless of which one we prefer or will end up actually being better moving forward.
- Vuc & Julius both being lower-level Allstar-Bigs, who should ideally be 2nd options & aren't defensive anchors; it's not a stretch for someone to put them in the same tier.
- Patrick Williams & Rowan Jr both being recent top 5 pick wings, whose games are very mature for their ages, have good vision, bring it on the defensive end, and sharing Zach's no-nonsense mindset; wouldn't exactly make it surprising if someone -- especially someone who sees Williams' on a daily basis -- thought they had comparable talent/potential.

And if Lavine does see Vuc/PWill v Julius/RJB as more or less a wash; then it wouldn't exactly be shocking if he did not think that the gap between Mitch, IQ, etc. and Markannen, White, etc. was big enough to convince him to leave a place he's happy at. Again, I'd disagree with him...as I think the gap between our supporting casts & tradebait is more decisive than the gap between Julius/Rowan & Vuc/Pat...but it's an opinion that I can see why Lavine would hold.

Yeah that's fair and the Bulls still have a lot of cachet as a franchise. They are MJ's team, being the face of it also opens a lot of avenues in terms of marketing.

[cgf]

I agree.

We're in a far better position than the Bulls imo.

The Bulls have surrounded Lavine with players that don't mask his weaknesses. In fact, they've traded the only young player outside of Patrick Williams who had some upside as a defensive player. Vucevic, Markkanen, White... None of those guys can cover for Lavine. And in Vuc they have a co-star who doesn't even fit his timeline.

Also the Bulls are a perfect example of a team that let the value of its young players crumble and will now have to overpay its own underachieving players (sunk costs) or let them go for nothing when they could've gotten something in return for them had they done something earlier. The Bulls should have traded Markkanen long ago and kept WCJ.

Now Markkanen doesn't fit with Vuc, is gonna be a RFA, and doesn't have much value around the league now that it's obvious that he's a bench piece and not a future star.

I agree as well, but there's something to be said for a guy liking where he's at...if he does actually like living in the Chicagoland area / being a Bull...and I'm not sure that the roster difference would seem that significant to Lavine even beyond that typical homerism that many professional athletes display towards their team-mates.

Like I can totally imagine him viewing Vucevic & Williams as comparable core pieces for him to build with to Randle & Barrett...regardless of which one we prefer or will end up actually being better moving forward.
- Vuc & Julius both being lower-level Allstar-Bigs, who should ideally be 2nd options & aren't defensive anchors; it's not a stretch for someone to put them in the same tier.
- Patrick Williams & Rowan Jr both being recent top 5 pick wings, whose games are very mature for their ages, have good vision, bring it on the defensive end, and sharing Zach's no-nonsense mindset; wouldn't exactly make it surprising if someone -- especially someone who sees Williams' on a daily basis -- thought they had comparable talent/potential.

And if Lavine does see Vuc/PWill v Julius/RJB as more or less a wash; then it wouldn't exactly be shocking if he did not think that the gap between Mitch, IQ, etc. and Markannen, White, etc. was big enough to convince him to leave a place he's happy at. Again, I'd disagree with him...as I think the gap between our supporting casts & tradebait is more decisive than the gap between Julius/Rowan & Vuc/Pat...but it's an opinion that I can see why Lavine would hold.

Yeah that's fair and the Bulls still have a lot of cachet as a franchise. They are MJ's team, being the face of it also opens a lot of avenues in terms of marketing.

Plus with the end of the Blackhawks Dynasty, the city has been up for grabs again from a sporting perspective. While no one in chicago (except my hockey-hating-bff) cared about the Bulls sucking during the Hawks' run of dominance; now, the Bulls could re-claim the city's attention just by becoming a competent playoff team again.

[NewKnicks]

So this year on the "let's compare a prospect to Frank" Game, I'm pitching Barnakina(Scotty Barnes) or Ziariakina(Ziaire Williams). Anyone else have any proposals?

Keep ripping Barnes. When we pass on him and take Davion Mitchell, you're going to regret it. Barnes will show out in year one, and Mitchell will be a role player at the next level.

I'm swinging for the fences with Barnes. He has superstar potential, and Mitchell does not.

I get it, why draft another big. But, if that big turns into a star, it's still worth it. We won't be able to know who's right for several years, but I'm betting on my evaluation and eyes. I watched a ton a college bball this year, so I'm not basing this on mocks. I'm basing it on my eyes.

Plus, Scottie Barnes is not your average big. He's a huge point forward who can guard all 5 positions. He's not going to be a banger down low who only get's his points from PnRs. He has a multi-faceted game, and has potential elite D.

[NewKnicks]

So this year on the "let's compare a prospect to Frank" Game, I'm pitching Barnakina(Scotty Barnes) or Ziariakina(Ziaire Williams). Anyone else have any proposals?

barnakina is a good one but i don't really like the ziare comparison. ziare flashed a pretty good offensive game this season. hit a bunch of shots off the dribble and can throw dimes. just inconsistent cause of injuries, personal issues and super skinny. if we're swinging for the fences and going for a pure upside pick i would take ziare over bj boston hands down.

Another ripping Barnes for literally no reason. You do realize that it's hard to flash a lot of offensive game in FSU's program with Hamilton, right? If he was on a team where he was the only real player out there, and played selfishly, he would have put up much bigger numbers.

I'm sticking with my analysis of Barnes. Go ahead and make fun all you want. I don't really get all the hate, to be honest. Anyone who has spent significant time watching him play can see his future star potential.

But I think you want Davion Mitchell, correct? Maybe that's why your pushing your anti-Barnes agenda. I have no interest in drafting an undersized guard in a league full of much bigger players. They typically don't pan out. This is an athlete's league, and measurables count for a lot. He doesn't have them (I think I read he's got 6'5 wingspan. I don't want to take any chances on any player who doesn't have the measurables to succeed in the league.

Taking Mitchell is much more of a risk than taking Barnes. If he didn't show out in the tourney, where would he be drafted? There's a reason for that. I'm actually not hating on Mitchell too much. I think he'll be a fine back up PG who can come in and lock players up on D (but even that's a question because of his size)

You do you, but I'm swinging for the fences. I don't see any superstar potential with Mitchell, and the skies the limit with Barnes.

How about Midget Mitchell? Do you like that name too? So stupid.

[NewKnicks]

I'm 100% confident the Knicks will f*ck up both picks.

If there is one thing most of us can agree on, it's this.

[NewKnicks]

Just took a peak at tankathon to kind of get an idea of what the lotto looks like corrently and realized that Orlando currently has two top 10 picks thanks to the Bulls. What were the Bulls thinking with that awful trade? They still suck and gave up a bunch of assets for Vucevic who hasn't made them any better and is over 30? Anyway nice job Orlando, they even have a high 2nd rounder this year.

the pick is top 4 protected

I don't think it's an awful trade at all considering that if the Bulls end up in the lottery, they still have a shot at a top 4 pick. and if they don't land a top 4 pick, chances are that whoever the Magic take at 9/10 is not gonna have the same type of impact that Vuc will have

Exactly. This board (and fans everywhere) severely overrate the draft. Bulls got an All-Star for maybe the 9 or 10 slot in this draft. Who will that get that? Kispert? Mitchell?

Outside of the top 5, all the players drafted will be raw and take a lot of time to develop. And next years first (or is it 2023?) will probably be a lot lower, as Vuc and Lavine start to unlock how they play off of each other.

That top 4 protection is what made that trade really good for the Bulls. If they somehow luck out and get a top 4 pick this year, they keep it. They were really smart to include that.

Bulls get a proven All-Star who is still relatively young, for a 9 or 10 pick this year, and a much lower 1st rounder in 2022 or 2023. Can't remember what year it was. Can you not trade consecutive number 1 picks? Can't remember.

Anyway, we're all clamoring over here for another All-Star to get a 'Big 3' with Randle and RJ, yet this board bashes the Bulls for doing exactly that.

No one knows how the trade will look in two years, but I do that trade 10/10 times. They also picked up Theis, who is a totally underrated player in the league.

[NewKnicks]

Just took a peak at tankathon to kind of get an idea of what the lotto looks like corrently and realized that Orlando currently has two top 10 picks thanks to the Bulls. What were the Bulls thinking with that awful trade? They still suck and gave up a bunch of assets for Vucevic who hasn't made them any better and is over 30? Anyway nice job Orlando, they even have a high 2nd rounder this year.

the pick is top 4 protected

I don't think it's an awful trade at all considering that if the Bulls end up in the lottery, they still have a shot at a top 4 pick. and if they don't land a top 4 pick, chances are that whoever the Magic take at 9/10 is not gonna have the same type of impact that Vuc will have

What impact did Vuc provide though? Orlando looks about the same as they did before trading him and Chicago looks the same, maybe even worse now especially defensively, as they did before getting him. Orlando should have started their rebuild sooner, I thought they waited too long but they finally came to their senses and made the obvious move. Chicago, terrible move. If they were a piece away I'd get it but they weren't and should have just waited for a better player to put their chips in for. They need to hope that the pick somehow jumps into the top 4 and there's a very slim chance that happens.

It's been what, 10 games? 9 games? You claim to know how the next 5 years will be for the Bulls? You don't know, I don't know. But they didn't give up too much to get an All-Star. WCJ is a role player. So basically it's the two numbers 1's for Vuc.

Plus, do you honestly think the Bulls are done? They won't look to add another star? They actually have some good assets for the next move, if they decide to make it. If they re-sign Lauri, you have Lauri, Coby White, Patrick Williams (although I'm not giving him up just yet if I'm the Bulls), plus another 1st or two. That's a damn good haul for another potential star, especially if you're including Williams.