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Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1841 » by Louri » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:20 pm

ZOMG wrote:
Louri wrote:It seems that Finnish media thinks that Bulls offered 15 million a year to Lauri. I still don't remember if it's confirmed anywhere? I've just read that "they were 4 millions apart". Any source?

His agent also said that Lauri is still dealing with that shoulder injury. "Something he had to fight through and still fights through. It's not something that goes away quickly." I think that's just excuse tho and problem is mostly mental.


What problem?

Regarding the shoulder - I agree that if you can play, you can play. Same goes for LaVine. People were still making excuses for him because of the ankle thing, and then he effortlessly exploded for a head-at-rim-level dunk. Oops.

Markkanen is clearly healthy enough to contribute. Now we just need to find someone to pass him the ball. That's no small task.


That he looks more like 10 million than 20 million a year player now.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1842 » by FranchisePlayer » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:26 pm

Hugi Mancura wrote:
E-DC wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:By any chance are you able to find out his percentages on post up opportunities?

Sent from my SM-S115DL using RealGM mobile app

I don't have that data. Maybe someone else can provide it.


That hook shot percentage is weird. Where you got it?

Post-up (by nba.com):
2020-21: .690
2019-20: .389
2018-19: .370
2017-18: .416

This year Lauri has bulls best post-up numbers from current players. Vuc is second with .636 (his numbers in Orlando were much worse). Lauri is in 93.8% percentile of all NBA players.

PnR big, will use efg% because pick&pop:
2020-21: .488
2019-20: .463
2018-19: .578
2017-18: .523

Overall Bulls big's have awful numbers in this. Example Vuc had .489 with Orlando and 1.14ppp. His Bulls numbers so far .433 and 0.84ppp. Best with Bulls is Valentine with .700 (power of pick & pop)

PnR ballhandler:
2020-21: 0.625
2019-20: 0.643
2018-19: 0.397
2017-18: 0.450

Best with Bulls and in 97.2 percentile in all of the NBA.

These are very little sample, so use it with grain of salt. But real question is should player with these statistics get more opportunities to do these things?


Good, I enjoy rhetorical questions.

Hidden gem. Of course.

From 10 FGA in 18 mins. against the Raptors to 4 FGA against the Hawks in 28 mins. In one night. Insane coaching or are the two ballhogs just envious of him?
MrSparkle wrote:I don't see a scenario here or there where Lauri becomes the "7-pick we thought he could be." If you remove his 3P ability, he's worse than Felicio by a mile.

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I like the quote- it makes me chuckle. And it was/is pretty much true.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1843 » by ZOMG » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:30 pm

Louri wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
Louri wrote:It seems that Finnish media thinks that Bulls offered 15 million a year to Lauri. I still don't remember if it's confirmed anywhere? I've just read that "they were 4 millions apart". Any source?

His agent also said that Lauri is still dealing with that shoulder injury. "Something he had to fight through and still fights through. It's not something that goes away quickly." I think that's just excuse tho and problem is mostly mental.


What problem?

Regarding the shoulder - I agree that if you can play, you can play. Same goes for LaVine. People were still making excuses for him because of the ankle thing, and then he effortlessly exploded for a head-at-rim-level dunk. Oops.

Markkanen is clearly healthy enough to contribute. Now we just need to find someone to pass him the ball. That's no small task.


That he looks more like 10 million than 20 million a year player now.


His current situation/role is so muddled, it's useless to try to come to any conclusions.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1844 » by CobyWhite0 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:40 pm

I'm not on Twitter, but ouch

https://heavy.com/sports/chicago-bulls/twitter-lauri-markkanen-zach-lavine/

"Who's a more effective defender, a crash test dummy or Lauri Markkanen?"

"Lauri is so **** at defense that it’s not even funny"

"I can’t believe I bought a Lauri jersey during his rookie year lol"
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1845 » by ZOMG » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:02 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:I'm not on Twitter, but ouch

https://heavy.com/sports/chicago-bulls/twitter-lauri-markkanen-zach-lavine/

"Who's a more effective defender, a crash test dummy or Lauri Markkanen?"

"Lauri is so **** at defense that it’s not even funny"

"I can’t believe I bought a Lauri jersey during his rookie year lol"


Oh man, you and Heavy.com just convinced me that Markkanen SUCKS!
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1846 » by Louri » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:14 pm

ZOMG wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:I'm not on Twitter, but ouch

https://heavy.com/sports/chicago-bulls/twitter-lauri-markkanen-zach-lavine/

"Who's a more effective defender, a crash test dummy or Lauri Markkanen?"

"Lauri is so **** at defense that it’s not even funny"

"I can’t believe I bought a Lauri jersey during his rookie year lol"


Oh man, you and Heavy.com just convinced me that Markkanen SUCKS!


When you take random quotes from the damn twitter.. it's over.
"Larry Nance Jr is better than Lauri Markkanen" -RealGM 2021
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1847 » by dougthonus » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:15 pm

ZOMG wrote:His current situation/role is so muddled, it's useless to try to come to any conclusions.


Two things:
1: The fact that his situation is muddled tells you a lot about the conclusion the Bulls have come to so far.

2: Regardless of the above, the Bulls and every other team with cap room, will need to reach a conclusion this summer when contract offers are do. I'm not sure why you would feel this is an invalid point of discussion.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1848 » by ZOMG » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:25 pm

dougthonus wrote:
ZOMG wrote:His current situation/role is so muddled, it's useless to try to come to any conclusions.


Two things:
1: The fact that his situation is muddled tells you a lot about the conclusion the Bulls have come to so far.

2: Regardless of the above, the Bulls and every other team with cap room, will need to reach a conclusion this summer when contract offers are do. I'm not sure why you would feel this is an invalid point of discussion.


I was merely pointing out that when Markkanen looks like a $20 mil player in one game and a $7 mil player in the next - largely depending on team strategy, minutes and touches - it's impossible to arrive at any definite conclusions about him. Right now he's getting wildly yanked around, with no rhythm or a steady role at all.

Of course the Bulls will need to come to a conclusion. As for other teams... as I've said before, I suspect that they made up their minds a long time ago, one way or another. The teams preparing offers sheets for Lauri probably made that decision the second they heard he didn't sign an extension.

IMO this season won't have much effect on Lauri's market, whatever happens. If he was 27, maybe. But not at 23. The teams interested in him are only thinking about the future and what THEY can get from Markkanen.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1849 » by dougthonus » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:04 pm

ZOMG wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
ZOMG wrote:His current situation/role is so muddled, it's useless to try to come to any conclusions.


Two things:
1: The fact that his situation is muddled tells you a lot about the conclusion the Bulls have come to so far.

2: Regardless of the above, the Bulls and every other team with cap room, will need to reach a conclusion this summer when contract offers are do. I'm not sure why you would feel this is an invalid point of discussion.


I was merely pointing out that when Markkanen looks like a $20 mil player in one game and a $7 mil player in the next - largely depending on team strategy, minutes and touches - it's impossible to arrive at any definite conclusions about him. Right now he's getting wildly yanked around, with no rhythm or a steady role at all.

Of course the Bulls will need to come to a conclusion. As for other teams... as I've said before, I suspect that they made up their minds a long time ago, one way or another. The teams preparing offers sheets for Lauri probably made that decision the second they heard he didn't sign an extension.

IMO this season won't have much effect on Lauri's market, whatever happens. If he was 27, maybe. But not at 23. The teams interested in him are only thinking about the future and what THEY can get from Markkanen.


If you look like a 20M player one night and a 7M dollar player the next, you probably aren't a 20M dollar player....

It's almost certainly false that teams will ignore the most recent season of basketball of a player on the FA market.

I do sincerely hope someone wants to drop bank on Lauri so we can turn it into a S&T and have a 20M player for free card lying around. Best situation for the Bulls and Lauri.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1850 » by GoBlue72391 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:07 pm

Louri wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
Louri wrote:It seems that Finnish media thinks that Bulls offered 15 million a year to Lauri. I still don't remember if it's confirmed anywhere? I've just read that "they were 4 millions apart". Any source?

His agent also said that Lauri is still dealing with that shoulder injury. "Something he had to fight through and still fights through. It's not something that goes away quickly." I think that's just excuse tho and problem is mostly mental.


What problem?

Regarding the shoulder - I agree that if you can play, you can play. Same goes for LaVine. People were still making excuses for him because of the ankle thing, and then he effortlessly exploded for a head-at-rim-level dunk. Oops.

Markkanen is clearly healthy enough to contribute. Now we just need to find someone to pass him the ball. That's no small task.


That he looks more like 10 million than 20 million a year player now.

This reeks of recency bias based off the most recent game. I mean, it literally fluctuates on a damn near game to game basis. One game he looks like a player that is easily worth $15M+ per year, and the next game he looks like a guy who would be lucky to get the MLE. Some of it is his fault, some of it isn't.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1851 » by GoBlue72391 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:09 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:I'm not on Twitter, but ouch

https://heavy.com/sports/chicago-bulls/twitter-lauri-markkanen-zach-lavine/

"Who's a more effective defender, a crash test dummy or Lauri Markkanen?"

"Lauri is so **** at defense that it’s not even funny"

"I can’t believe I bought a Lauri jersey during his rookie year lol"

And we care about Twitter randoms reactionary takes why exactly? We don't have enough here?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1852 » by GoBlue72391 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Hugi Mancura wrote:
E-DC wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:By any chance are you able to find out his percentages on post up opportunities?

Sent from my SM-S115DL using RealGM mobile app

I don't have that data. Maybe someone else can provide it.


That hook shot percentage is weird. Where you got it?

Post-up (by nba.com):
2020-21: .690
2019-20: .389
2018-19: .370
2017-18: .416

This year Lauri has bulls best post-up numbers from current players. Vuc is second with .636 (his numbers in Orlando were much worse). Lauri is in 93.8% percentile of all NBA players.

PnR big, will use efg% because pick&pop:
2020-21: .488
2019-20: .463
2018-19: .578
2017-18: .523

Overall Bulls big's have awful numbers in this. Example Vuc had .489 with Orlando and 1.14ppp. His Bulls numbers so far .433 and 0.84ppp. Best with Bulls is Valentine with .700 (power of pick & pop)

PnR ballhandler:
2020-21: 0.625
2019-20: 0.643
2018-19: 0.397
2017-18: 0.450

Best with Bulls and in 97.2 percentile in all of the NBA.

These are very little sample, so use it with grain of salt. But real question is should player with these statistics get more opportunities to do these things?

Where on NBA.com did you find these numbers exactly? I've been hunting around for these numbers for awhile. NBA.com isn't very user friendly.

Anyway, I knew just based off the eye test that Lauri has been money in the post this season and vastly improved from prior seasons. The problem is that he has so few attempts in the post, probably less than two dozen over the course of the entire season. That's something we absolutely need to go to more, especially now since we're playing him at SF some and he has mismatches more often than usual.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1853 » by dougthonus » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:15 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:This reeks of recency bias based off the most recent game. I mean, it literally fluctuates on a damn near game to game basis. One game he looks like a player that is easily worth $15M+ per year, and the next game he looks like a guy who would be lucky to get the MLE. Some of it is his fault, some of it isn't.


People worth the big bucks don't have those fluctuations to that degree. Lauri has had them his whole career. So much that the board here created the term FebruLauri to discuss how good he was for one month two full seasons ago. The reason he's up and down is because he:

1: He only contributes in one way, so if that way is off, then it's highly unlikely he will do something else to help you.

2: He doesn't create his own shot, so his contribution in that one way is highly reliant on other players.

In the right situation these problems can be minimized, but it sure requires a whole lot of perfect things in place to do so. Just the right kind of center to handle defense, a strong defensive three, and multiple shot creators. A team like the 76ers would probably be a great fit for him (not that they can realistically acquire him), but there aren't too many teams that have the right pieces to fit next to him IMO.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1854 » by GoBlue72391 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:22 pm

dougthonus wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:This reeks of recency bias based off the most recent game. I mean, it literally fluctuates on a damn near game to game basis. One game he looks like a player that is easily worth $15M+ per year, and the next game he looks like a guy who would be lucky to get the MLE. Some of it is his fault, some of it isn't.


People worth the big bucks don't have those fluctuations to that degree. Lauri has had them his whole career. So much that the board here created the term FebruLauri to discuss how good he was for one month two full seasons ago. The reason he's up and down is because he:

1: He only contributes in one way, so if that way is off, then it's highly unlikely he will do something else to help you.

2: He doesn't create his own shot, so his contribution in that one way is highly reliant on other players.

In the right situation these problems can be minimized, but it sure requires a whole lot of perfect things in place to do so. Just the right kind of center to handle defense, a strong defensive three, and multiple shot creators. A team like the 76ers would probably be a great fit for him (not that they can realistically acquire him), but there aren't too many teams that have the right pieces to fit next to him IMO.

People worth the big bucks don't have their roles and usage fluctuate on a game by game basis either. He was put in a position to fail against the Hawks, forced to play a role that doesn't suit him. Given how he was utilized that game, it would have made much more sense to play Theis instead.

That is in direct contrast to the previous two games where we did a great job of utilizing him properly and it seemed like he was getting more comfortable with his new bench role. I mean, what's the logic in playing a guy 18 minutes when he's 8-10 then playing him 27 minutes when he only has 4 shots?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1855 » by dougthonus » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:30 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:People worth the big bucks don't have their roles and usage fluctuate on a game by game basis either.


I agree, and the Bulls did everything they good for 3.5 seasons to try to put Lauri in position to succeed. After Lauri still didn't succeed, they are now treating him like a player worth the big bucks and have relegated him to a player whose role will fluctuate.

He was put in a position to fail against the Hawks, forced to play a role that doesn't suit him. Given how he was utilized that game, it would have made much more sense to play Theis instead.


Most players whom are fringe / MLE talent types take what minutes they can get and make the best of them and don't expect the team to be built around trying to make them succeed.

That is in direct contrast to the previous two games where we did a great job of utilizing him properly and it seemed like he was getting more comfortable with his new bench role. I mean, what's the logic in playing a guy 18 minutes when he's 8-10 then playing him 27 minutes when he only has 4 shots?


Guys who rely on other people to get shots are always going to have up and down attempts. Personally, I think we've seen Lauri get tired lots of times in the past, four games in five nights, I think Lauri was just gassed and had a poor night. Could the Bulls have gotten him more looks? Maybe, but who cares? You don't argue about how many looks your fringe players get. That's who Lauri is. He's a fringe player. If Coby White gets 4 looks one night or Pat Williams gets 4 looks one night, I don't care about it either.

At the same time, I don't bury Lauri for having a poor game against Atlanta. He could easily bounce back next game. It's just who he is, an offensive gunner that can't create his own shot but can create good offense with help occasionally. Some games he'll be really useful some games he won't.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1856 » by Louri » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:30 pm

dougthonus wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:This reeks of recency bias based off the most recent game. I mean, it literally fluctuates on a damn near game to game basis. One game he looks like a player that is easily worth $15M+ per year, and the next game he looks like a guy who would be lucky to get the MLE. Some of it is his fault, some of it isn't.


People worth the big bucks don't have those fluctuations to that degree. Lauri has had them his whole career. So much that the board here created the term FebruLauri to discuss how good he was for one month two full seasons ago. The reason he's up and down is because he:

1: He only contributes in one way, so if that way is off, then it's highly unlikely he will do something else to help you.

2: He doesn't create his own shot, so his contribution in that one way is highly reliant on other players.

In the right situation these problems can be minimized, but it sure requires a whole lot of perfect things in place to do so. Just the right kind of center to handle defense, a strong defensive three, and multiple shot creators. A team like the 76ers would probably be a great fit for him (not that they can realistically acquire him), but there aren't too many teams that have the right pieces to fit next to him IMO.


I think that in right environment Lauri would be really good, but you are right that there is not many of them. Atm I think Dallas and Spurs are only ones. Dallas 'cause Doncic plays there and they would have good Euro connection. Lauri would get new motivation to be better. He would be angry and shamed to look bad in front of Luka. Second place would be Spurs as they are boring and play a bit more European basketball. Tony Parker said in his Doc that San Antonio is family friendly city where is not that much to do beside basketball. They also have good culture for more team minded players. Sounds like perfect place for shy Finnisher with family to feed.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1857 » by nomorezorro » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:37 pm

i genuinely don't know what universe lauri stans are living in when they complain about him not hitting some arbitrary shots metric in every single game. one, he's very obviously not a featured player at this point in his career, so it's not like it's gonna hit the third quarter and billy's gonna go "oh **** we need to get lauri more involved!" when he sees a lower-than-usual number of shots for a bench guy. (for the atlanta game, this is particularly after the nuts first half zach had.)

second, and more importantly, if you're an offensive-oriented player and you play 27 minutes and you only get four shots in the flow of the offense...how is that not on you? the bulls don't run plays and go "ok it's time for lauri to get a shot now" and sometimes they do that 15 times and sometimes they do it 4 times. "other people have to force feed him the ball for him to be good at the one thing he's good at" is not a selling point!
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1858 » by Leslie Forman » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:13 pm

dougthonus wrote:If you look like a 20M player one night and a 7M dollar player the next, you probably aren't a 20M dollar player....

I know you're just quoting and are not the one who actually said it, but phrasing like this is such a clear attempt by what's left of his hardcore fanbase to move the Overton window on Lauri's impact.

In his bad games, he's not a "$7 million" player. He's a straight up minimum/two-way/VTB United League player.

Nemanja Bjelica is basically a better passing Lauri and he only gets $7mil a year. Guys like Daniel Theis, Enes Kanter, and Nerlens Noel are getting $5million. Bobby Portis is only getting $3.6million!

I mean, imagine thinking one of these guys should be getting paid almost 10 times more than the other one.

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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1859 » by nomorezorro » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:29 pm

i think this came up during a discussion about zach a while back, but it's probably worth noting that being an efficient scorer in and of itself is increasingly less valuable as scoring efficiency trends up leaguewide. lauri's having a really really good scoring year, but also there are 57 players this season with a ts% over 60% (as compared to 41 last season, 36 the year before. there were 14 in 2015-16!)

offenses are getting better, shot selection is getting better. obviously it's still good to have players who are above-average in this category, but it's increasingly plausible that you could find another player to replicate the majority of his production at a fraction of the price some people are discussing
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1860 » by E-DC » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:32 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
dougthonus wrote:If you look like a 20M player one night and a 7M dollar player the next, you probably aren't a 20M dollar player....

I know you're just quoting and are not the one who actually said it, but phrasing like this is such a clear attempt by what's left of his hardcore fanbase to move the Overton window on Lauri's impact.

In his bad games, he's not a "$7 million" player. He's a straight up minimum/two-way/VTB United League player.

Nemanja Bjelica is basically a better passing Lauri and he only gets $7mil a year. Guys like Daniel Theis, Enes Kanter, and Nerlens Noel are getting $5million. Bobby Portis is only getting $3.6million!

I mean, imagine thinking one of these guys should be getting paid almost 10 times more than the other one.

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Of course, one of them is a 30 years old center who only shot 40% in each of the previous two seasons.

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