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Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1881 » by ZOMG » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:49 pm

sco wrote:
Louri wrote:I think that the way Lauri has been used in Bulls during years has also left mark to guards. Like Sato. I hardly ever see him pass ball to Lauri. Now he delivers ball to Vucevic constantly. Is Vucevic that much better at getting open or is coaching staff demanding Sato and Lavine to force feed Vucevic now? I think a bit both. But then again when I watch clips how Vuce gets his shots, I have no idea why Bulls has not tried same things with Lauri during years. Forcing ball to him and get him hot from mid range. Maybe next team will.

They pass the ball to Vuc because he is an allstar C that they just mortgaged the team to get and they want him to get comfortable. Moreover, he is able to take advantage of mismatches. They didn't pass the ball to Lauri as much because he generally showed an inability to score in the post or take advantage of mismatches.


Inability to score in the post?

Are you aware of his efficiency numbers there this season? As has been pointed out pretty much EVERY FREAKING DAY in these pointless Lauri debates, he's been fantastic near the basket this season. But as we all know... people see what they want to see. None of the numbers matter if you've made up your mind. The essence of fandom I guess.

This is what really saps my energy on this forum. I enjoy debate, but when people base their arguments on... I don't even know what, there's just no point anymore.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1882 » by ZOMG » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:06 pm

the ultimates wrote:Vucevic gets the ball more than Lauri because he's a better scorer than Lauri point blank period. Vucevic is more adept and savvy at rolling to the basket as well as popping behind the three-point line. Teams actually double him on the post particularly if he's matched against a significantly smaller defender and he's shown he can score against good interior defenders. These are things Lauri can't do so the Bulls don't ask him to do it.

Secondly, Lauri takes half of his shots from three-point range. It is a shot he can't create for himself. He's made 76 three-pointers this season. He's been assisted on 75 of them so somebody is getting him the ball. To expect somebody that limited to get more shots or have more offense run for them is crazy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/markkla01/shooting/2021


Your argument makes exactly zero sense. Hell, it isn't even really an argument.

You don't want Lauri to shoot threes? You want Lauri to "create" his threes himself (what does that even mean)? Which is it? I'm confused.

I wish someone explained to me why the Bulls fanbase has such a traumatic relationship with assisted baskets. For real. I mean... that's literally modern NBA basketball. It's GOOD when the ball moves, when there's a lot of assists, and guys are able to score without first pounding the ball or dribbling around like a headless chicken for 15 seconds. Yet that is exactly the kind of stupid, inefficient, outdated basketball this fanbase seems to enjoy.

But you cannot win like that in the long run. Not unless you have a superstar (or preferably two).

Markkanen does exactly what he's been told. Mostly that means sitting in the weakside corner, waiting for those assisted 3pt opportunities. When he's been allowed to do something else this season, he's been fantastic. But hey... we have two 2nd bananas now and they both need their touches and shots. :shrug:
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1883 » by the ultimates » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:36 pm

ZOMG wrote:
the ultimates wrote:Vucevic gets the ball more than Lauri because he's a better scorer than Lauri point blank period. Vucevic is more adept and savvy at rolling to the basket as well as popping behind the three-point line. Teams actually double him on the post particularly if he's matched against a significantly smaller defender and he's shown he can score against good interior defenders. These are things Lauri can't do so the Bulls don't ask him to do it.

Secondly, Lauri takes half of his shots from three-point range. It is a shot he can't create for himself. He's made 76 three-pointers this season. He's been assisted on 75 of them so somebody is getting him the ball. To expect somebody that limited to get more shots or have more offense run for them is crazy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/markkla01/shooting/2021


Your argument makes exactly zero sense. Hell, it isn't even really an argument.

You don't what Lauri to shoot threes? You want Lauri to "create" his threes himself (what does that even mean)? Which is it? I'm confused.

I wish someone eplained to me why the Bulls fanbase has such a traumatic relationship with assisted baskets. For real. I mean... that's literally modern NBA basketball. It's GOOD when the ball moves, when there's a lot of assists, and guys are able to score without first pounding the ball or dribbling around like a headless chicken for 15 seconds. Yet that is exactly the kind of stupid, inefficient, outdated basketball this fanbase seems to enjoy.

But you cannot win like that in the long run. Not unless you have a superstar (or preferably two).

Markkanen does exactly what he's been told. Mostly that means sitting in the weakside corner, waiting for those assisted 3pt opportunities. When he's been allowed to do something else this season, he's been fantastic. But hey... we have two 2nd bananas now and they both need their touches and shots. :shrug:



Your reading comprehension is failing you. Where in that paragraph did I say I didn't want him to shoot three's. The numbers clearly show he's limited in getting his own offense. Donovan runs one of the more free-flowing offenses in the league. This notion that Lauri is just asked to space the floor and not get involved in other ways is bs spouted only by those who push the narrative of Lauri's being misused, doesn't get enough touches or blame everybody but him for his shortcomings and clear lack of skills.

You know damn well what shot creation is, it's only you that is willfully conflating it pounding the ball, and overdribbling.
Let's look at a list of the top 50 three-point shooters based on attempts per game.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgThreePointFieldGoalsAttempted/dir/desc
Looks like a hell of a lot of guys who can create their own shot to me.
If Lauri is a second bannana then that bannana is rotten. Again you know what a shot creator or shot creation is just like you know what a number two option is and looks like to say Lauri is that is foolish.
Losing to get high draft picks and hoping they turn into franchise players is not some next level, genius move. That's what teams want to happen in any rebuild/tank or whatever you want to market it as.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1884 » by sco » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:49 pm

ZOMG wrote:
sco wrote:
Louri wrote:I think that the way Lauri has been used in Bulls during years has also left mark to guards. Like Sato. I hardly ever see him pass ball to Lauri. Now he delivers ball to Vucevic constantly. Is Vucevic that much better at getting open or is coaching staff demanding Sato and Lavine to force feed Vucevic now? I think a bit both. But then again when I watch clips how Vuce gets his shots, I have no idea why Bulls has not tried same things with Lauri during years. Forcing ball to him and get him hot from mid range. Maybe next team will.

They pass the ball to Vuc because he is an allstar C that they just mortgaged the team to get and they want him to get comfortable. Moreover, he is able to take advantage of mismatches. They didn't pass the ball to Lauri as much because he generally showed an inability to score in the post or take advantage of mismatches.


Inability to score in the post?

Are you aware of his efficiency numbers there this season? As has been pointed out pretty much EVERY FREAKING DAY in these pointless Lauri debates, he's been fantastic near the basket this season. But as we all know... people see what they want to see. None of the numbers matter if you've made up your mind. The essence of fandom I guess.

This is what really saps my energy on this forum. I enjoy debate, but when people base their arguments on... I don't even know what, there's just no point anymore.

ZOMG - there's no sapping you dude! Lauri has become more efficient scoring around the rim, but on limited attempts and less frequently in post-ups. Vuc is a volume post scorer with a myriad of post moves.
:clap:
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1885 » by E-DC » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:57 pm

the ultimates wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
the ultimates wrote:Vucevic gets the ball more than Lauri because he's a better scorer than Lauri point blank period. Vucevic is more adept and savvy at rolling to the basket as well as popping behind the three-point line. Teams actually double him on the post particularly if he's matched against a significantly smaller defender and he's shown he can score against good interior defenders. These are things Lauri can't do so the Bulls don't ask him to do it.

Secondly, Lauri takes half of his shots from three-point range. It is a shot he can't create for himself. He's made 76 three-pointers this season. He's been assisted on 75 of them so somebody is getting him the ball. To expect somebody that limited to get more shots or have more offense run for them is crazy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/markkla01/shooting/2021


Your argument makes exactly zero sense. Hell, it isn't even really an argument.

You don't what Lauri to shoot threes? You want Lauri to "create" his threes himself (what does that even mean)? Which is it? I'm confused.

I wish someone eplained to me why the Bulls fanbase has such a traumatic relationship with assisted baskets. For real. I mean... that's literally modern NBA basketball. It's GOOD when the ball moves, when there's a lot of assists, and guys are able to score without first pounding the ball or dribbling around like a headless chicken for 15 seconds. Yet that is exactly the kind of stupid, inefficient, outdated basketball this fanbase seems to enjoy.

But you cannot win like that in the long run. Not unless you have a superstar (or preferably two).

Markkanen does exactly what he's been told. Mostly that means sitting in the weakside corner, waiting for those assisted 3pt opportunities. When he's been allowed to do something else this season, he's been fantastic. But hey... we have two 2nd bananas now and they both need their touches and shots. :shrug:



Your reading comprehension is failing you. Where in that paragraph did I say I didn't want him to shoot three's. The numbers clearly show he's limited in getting his own offense. Donovan runs one of the more free-flowing offenses in the league. This notion that Lauri is just asked to space the floor and not get involved in other ways is bs spouted only by those who push the narrative of Lauri's being misused, doesn't get enough touches or blame everybody but him for his shortcomings and clear lack of skills.

You know damn well what shot creation is, it's only you that is willfully conflating it pounding the ball, and overdribbling.
Let's look at a list of the top 50 three-point shooters based on attempts per game.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgThreePointFieldGoalsAttempted/dir/desc
Looks like a hell of a lot of guys who can create their own shot to me.
If Lauri is a second bannana then that bannana is rotten. Again you know what a shot creator or shot creation is just like you know what a number two option is and looks like to say Lauri is that is foolish.

I'm confused too. Your list has only three big men on it, Lauri, Vucevic, and Porzingis.

Lauri % of 2pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .709
Career: .593

% of 3pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .987
Career: .978

Vucevic % of 2pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .619 (.678 with Chicago)
Career: .651

% of 3pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: 1.000
Career: .995

Porzingis % of 2pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .713
Career: .663

% of 3pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .974
Career: .980
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1886 » by Bullstuff » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:03 pm

Vuc is the better passer and most importantly he actually uses his size to establish his position and knows how to post up against anyone (doesn't even have to be a real mismatch and it seems Lauri has trouble even then). Lauri is a more agile and (arguably) somewhat better shooter (I think they're pretty even there). Neither is a good defender. At the moment Vuc is the real deal and Lauri still is work-in-progress. And yes, I do think Lauri is an NBA player - a starter though? Have to see, but he is just too inconsistent and often disappears in a game for a quarter or two (and when he has a REALLY bad night he is actually too visible in defense)...
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1887 » by Louri » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:19 pm

sco wrote:
Louri wrote:I think that the way Lauri has been used in Bulls during years has also left mark to guards. Like Sato. I hardly ever see him pass ball to Lauri. Now he delivers ball to Vucevic constantly. Is Vucevic that much better at getting open or is coaching staff demanding Sato and Lavine to force feed Vucevic now? I think a bit both. But then again when I watch clips how Vuce gets his shots, I have no idea why Bulls has not tried same things with Lauri during years. Forcing ball to him and get him hot from mid range. Maybe next team will.

They pass the ball to Vuc because he is an allstar C that they just mortgaged the team to get and they want him to get comfortable. Moreover, he is able to take advantage of mismatches. They didn't pass the ball to Lauri as much because he generally showed an inability to score in the post or take advantage of mismatches.


Here is some examples what I meant. I don't see hole in Lauri's skill set that would prevent him to not do the same. It's has been coach decision to use him as a spacer and popper. Not roller. Boylen era also removed 2p shots entirely. If they really wanted develop Lauri they would have given him more usage and find more ways to utilize him than 3p shooting/drive from 3p line. Those easy shots are way to get big involved to game early. When Lauri hits his first shot, he is usually plays better overall in that game. I bet that if he goes to Spurs, Pop would find ways to get him involved early and make him better that way.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=26&GameID=0022000523&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=MISS%20Vucevic%2011%27%20Jump%20Shot&sct=plot

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=9&GameID=0022000769&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=MISS%20Vucevic%2014%27%20Jump%20Bank%20Shot&sct=plot

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=74&GameID=0022000769&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Vucevic%2010%27%20Turnaround%20Jump%20Shot%20(2%20PTS)%20(LaVine%201%20AST)&sct=plot

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=233&GameID=0022000769&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=MISS%20Vucevic%2017%27%20Jump%20Shot&sct=plot
"Larry Nance Jr is better than Lauri Markkanen" -RealGM 2021
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1888 » by the ultimates » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:45 pm

E-DC wrote:
the ultimates wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
Your argument makes exactly zero sense. Hell, it isn't even really an argument.

You don't what Lauri to shoot threes? You want Lauri to "create" his threes himself (what does that even mean)? Which is it? I'm confused.

I wish someone eplained to me why the Bulls fanbase has such a traumatic relationship with assisted baskets. For real. I mean... that's literally modern NBA basketball. It's GOOD when the ball moves, when there's a lot of assists, and guys are able to score without first pounding the ball or dribbling around like a headless chicken for 15 seconds. Yet that is exactly the kind of stupid, inefficient, outdated basketball this fanbase seems to enjoy.

But you cannot win like that in the long run. Not unless you have a superstar (or preferably two).

Markkanen does exactly what he's been told. Mostly that means sitting in the weakside corner, waiting for those assisted 3pt opportunities. When he's been allowed to do something else this season, he's been fantastic. But hey... we have two 2nd bananas now and they both need their touches and shots. :shrug:



Your reading comprehension is failing you. Where in that paragraph did I say I didn't want him to shoot three's. The numbers clearly show he's limited in getting his own offense. Donovan runs one of the more free-flowing offenses in the league. This notion that Lauri is just asked to space the floor and not get involved in other ways is bs spouted only by those who push the narrative of Lauri's being misused, doesn't get enough touches or blame everybody but him for his shortcomings and clear lack of skills.

You know damn well what shot creation is, it's only you that is willfully conflating it pounding the ball, and overdribbling.
Let's look at a list of the top 50 three-point shooters based on attempts per game.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgThreePointFieldGoalsAttempted/dir/desc
Looks like a hell of a lot of guys who can create their own shot to me.
If Lauri is a second bannana then that bannana is rotten. Again you know what a shot creator or shot creation is just like you know what a number two option is and looks like to say Lauri is that is foolish.

I'm confused too. Your list has only three big men on it, Lauri, Vucevic, and Porzingis.

Lauri % of 2pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .709
Career: .593

% of 3pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .987
Career: .978

Vucevic % of 2pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .619 (.678 with Chicago)
Career: .651

% of 3pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: 1.000
Career: .995

Porzingis % of 2pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .713
Career: .663

% of 3pt FG Ast'd
2020-21: .974
Career: .980


The three-point attempts per game list? It's not about bigs. The list shows the vast majority of the top 50 players in attempts are players who can create threes for themselves. There are maybe about 10 guys total who are pure floor spacers and are not looking to or asked to put the ball on the floor or get that shot for themselves.

Now, as far as the assisted field goals percentage numbers I don't understand the point. Are you trying to say they only score off system offense? We've seen Orlando and Chicago run offense through Vucevic and be successful. We've seen when Porzingis is healthy New York and Dallas run offense through him and be successful. At no point in time over four years have we seen that from Lauri.
Losing to get high draft picks and hoping they turn into franchise players is not some next level, genius move. That's what teams want to happen in any rebuild/tank or whatever you want to market it as.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1889 » by sco » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 pm

Louri wrote:
sco wrote:
Louri wrote:I think that the way Lauri has been used in Bulls during years has also left mark to guards. Like Sato. I hardly ever see him pass ball to Lauri. Now he delivers ball to Vucevic constantly. Is Vucevic that much better at getting open or is coaching staff demanding Sato and Lavine to force feed Vucevic now? I think a bit both. But then again when I watch clips how Vuce gets his shots, I have no idea why Bulls has not tried same things with Lauri during years. Forcing ball to him and get him hot from mid range. Maybe next team will.

They pass the ball to Vuc because he is an allstar C that they just mortgaged the team to get and they want him to get comfortable. Moreover, he is able to take advantage of mismatches. They didn't pass the ball to Lauri as much because he generally showed an inability to score in the post or take advantage of mismatches.


Here is some examples what I meant. I don't see hole in Lauri's skill set that would prevent him to not do the same. It's has been coach decision to use him as a spacer and popper. Not roller. Boylen era also removed 2p shots entirely. If they really wanted develop Lauri they would have given him more usage and find more ways to utilize him than 3p shooting/drive from 3p line. Those easy shots are way to get big involved to game early. When Lauri hits his first shot, he is usually plays better overall in that game. I bet that if he goes to Spurs, Pop would find ways to get him involved early and make him better that way.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=26&GameID=0022000523&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=MISS%20Vucevic%2011%27%20Jump%20Shot&sct=plot

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=9&GameID=0022000769&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=MISS%20Vucevic%2014%27%20Jump%20Bank%20Shot&sct=plot

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=74&GameID=0022000769&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Vucevic%2010%27%20Turnaround%20Jump%20Shot%20(2%20PTS)%20(LaVine%201%20AST)&sct=plot

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=233&GameID=0022000769&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=MISS%20Vucevic%2017%27%20Jump%20Shot&sct=plot

I agree that there have been mistakes in Lauri's development. I also think Lauri will benefit from a system that seeks to maximize his touches. I also, also think that he'll get signed on a good deal next off-season (i.e. <$15M/yr) by some other team. You, ZOMG et al will have the right to give us all "I told you so's".

That said, I just don't like Lauri as a player. I don't think he's durable and I don't think he has the drive to become more than he is.
:clap:
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1890 » by Hangtime84 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:16 pm

Bullstuff wrote:Vuc is the better passer and most importantly he actually uses his size to establish his position and knows how to post up against anyone (doesn't even have to be a real mismatch and it seems Lauri has trouble even then). Lauri is a more agile and (arguably) somewhat better shooter (I think they're pretty even there). Neither is a good defender. At the moment Vuc is the real deal and Lauri still is work-in-progress. And yes, I do think Lauri is an NBA player - a starter though? Have to see, but he is just too inconsistent and often disappears in a game for a quarter or two (and when he has a REALLY bad night he is actually too visible in defense)...


It’s gonna take while for Lauri to hit his stride having him move to bench is a smart adjustment until he brings the awareness on the defensive end
Jcool0 wrote:
aguifs wrote:Do we have a friggin plan?


If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.


NBA fan logic we need to trade one of two best players because (Player X) one needs to shine more.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1891 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:19 pm

dougthonus wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:It's interesting you feel that way because I feel the Bulls did just about everything they could to sabotage Lauri's development. Obviously not intentionally, they were just grossly incompetent. Not just Lauri either, pretty much all of the young players in recent years have been exposed to a less than ideal development environment. Lauri is just the most blatant example.


I disagree. The Bulls ran more plays to get Lauri open looks than anyone else on the team. The offense was geared almost entirely around getting Lauri touches and open looks. For a guy who gets mostly wide open three point looks, he has never consistently finished.

I don't know what else you want the team to do. Lauri simply isn't that good. His shooting never developed like we thought it would, he certainly never developed any skills to create on his own, pass, defend, or contribute in other ways, and he has never been able to meaningfully take advantage of his size. He struggles with conditioning, effort, and focus and other mental aspects of the game.

At some point, you just say Lauri's development is on Lauri.

You're kind of glossing over the fact that Lauri went from having the 2nd most touches on the team his first two years down to the 5th and 7th most the past two seasons respectively. He was at his best and most promising those first two years when he had those touches. He's been mostly disappointing the past two years as those touches have decreased. There is very likely a correlation there. It's not all about plays, it's about having the freedom to just play.

Boylen took the midrange away from his players, and Billy has (wisely) reintroduced it and Lauri has recently been more active from that area, but for awhile that freedom was taken away from him. What about bringing the ball up the court after a defensive rebound? He used to do this all the time earlier in his career and had great success with it. It was a big part of the whole FebruLauri thing. Now I can count on two hands the number of times he's done that the past two years combined. Has he willingly chose to eliminate that aspect from his game or was he told by the coaching staff to cut that out? I don't know. Posting him up against mismatches is something we should do every time he has a smaller player on him, but we've done it less than 2 dozen times all season even though he's shooting nearly 70% from the post and nearly 75% on at the rim attempts.

Running him off screens for 3s and cuts is good, I'm not saying we shouldn't do that. I'm saying we should supplement that with aggressively attacking mismatches in the post and letting him lead the break from time to time like he used to. Grabbing the rebound, looking for a guard to give it to, then finally passing it to the guard slows us down much more than just grabbing it and going when the opportunity presents itself.

I think another team will take a chance on Lauri and bump his touches up closer to what they were his first two years and he'll be the player we all hoped he would become and we'll all be kicking ourselves for letting him slip through our fingers. I guess we'll have to wait and see.


You never know. I think it is hard to bump up the touches of a guy who needs you to run 15 seconds of offense to get him a look because he can't create his own shot.

How many players in this league average more than 10 looks a game but create virtually none of their own offense?

That's how we're using him now, but that's not how we used him his first three years. At least not nearly to this extent.

Lauri's percentage of his 2 point FGs that were assisted by year

2017-18: 64%
2018-19: 53%
2019-20: 54
2020-21: 71%

That's a huge difference. Going from 66 touches per game down to 39 is also a huge difference. So if Lauri can't create his own offense and the only way he can get shots is if we waste 15 seconds every time we run a play for him, then how on Earth did he have 27 more touches per game compared to now? How on Earth did he create 47% of his offense himself compared to only 29% now?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1892 » by imagge » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:32 pm

Statistically this has been the best offensive year of his career, shooting 48% from the floor, 38% from 3 and I would say that is the case because his role has been lessened to some degree by Billy, which screams role player not franchise corner stone
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1893 » by imagge » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:34 pm

Lauri has been more efficient with less shots, while zack's efficiently has gone up with around the same amount of shots. Higher volume for Lauri yields less efficiency
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1894 » by PaKii94 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:38 pm

imagge wrote:Lauri has been more efficient with less shots, while zack's efficiently has gone up with around the same amount of shots. Higher volume for Lauri yields less efficiency


Theoretically his efficiency should have been lower earlier in the season when he was getting more touches/shots and it should have been in the absolute gutter when he was getting 80 touches a game during FebruLauri. Neither was the case.

It also could be lauri DID improve his finishing at the rim and improved his 3 point shot.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1895 » by imagge » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:51 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
imagge wrote:Lauri has been more efficient with less shots, while zack's efficiently has gone up with around the same amount of shots. Higher volume for Lauri yields less efficiency


Theoretically his efficiency should have been lower earlier in the season when he was getting more touches/shots and it should have been in the absolute gutter when he was getting 80 touches a game during FebruLauri. Neither was the case.

It also could be lauri DID improve his finishing at the rim and improved his 3 point shot.



Okay good call although what he is screams back up big, rebounding in the toilet, nonexistent defense, virtually no playmaking for other players....I'll be interested to see if he gets a 20 mil a year offer, coming off of this covid season, I bet teams will not spend freely this summer. The QO or 14 mil a year I would happily have him come off the bench to be a PF scorer off the bench like Bobby Portis
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1896 » by GrowingHorns » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:57 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
imagge wrote:Lauri has been more efficient with less shots, while zack's efficiently has gone up with around the same amount of shots. Higher volume for Lauri yields less efficiency


Theoretically his efficiency should have been lower earlier in the season when he was getting more touches/shots and it should have been in the absolute gutter when he was getting 80 touches a game during FebruLauri. Neither was the case.

It also could be lauri DID improve his finishing at the rim and improved his 3 point shot.


And not just could be but it is. He gets less often blocked and can alter the movement better when finishing lay-ups.To the extend he doesn't get foul calls as much if he finished more through the contact... guess its good and bad. God he has moves but would like to have more and1's...
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1897 » by dougthonus » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:21 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:You're kind of glossing over the fact that Lauri went from having the 2nd most touches on the team his first two years down to the 5th and 7th most the past two seasons respectively. He was at his best and most promising those first two years when he had those touches. He's been mostly disappointing the past two years as those touches have decreased. There is very likely a correlation there. It's not all about plays, it's about having the freedom to just play.


The team was awful those years, and Lauri wasn't particularly efficient in those years either. Lauri is actually in his most efficient year this season. Lauri has plenty of freedom to play, he lacks the capability to generate shots without the team building their offense around him. He's proven not to be a player worthy of doing such a thing.

What about bringing the ball up the court after a defensive rebound? He used to do this all the time earlier in his career and had great success with it. It was a big part of the whole FebruLauri thing. Now I can count on two hands the number of times he's done that the past two years combined. Has he willingly chose to eliminate that aspect from his game or was he told by the coaching staff to cut that out? I don't know.


When playing next to Lopez, he got a lot of free releases on rebounds because Lopez boxed out and allowed Lauri to grab a lot of boards. It's one of the things that makes Lopez such a positive player on rebounding despite limited rebounds. Lauri is now grabbing more contested boards and isn't getting as many free releases as he used to, you do see this occasionally, but I don't think it is a coaching staff thing or a Lauri thing per se, but the way the personnel has changed and opportunities have changed because of it.

Posting him up against mismatches is something we should do every time he has a smaller player on him, but we've done it less than 2 dozen times all season even though he's shooting nearly 70% from the post and nearly 75% on at the rim attempts.


Lauri is awful posting up mismatches though, that's one of his big problems. If he was skilled in this area it would be so helpful.

Running him off screens for 3s and cuts is good, I'm not saying we shouldn't do that. I'm saying we should supplement that with aggressively attacking mismatches in the post and letting him lead the break from time to time like he used to. Grabbing the rebound, looking for a guard to give it to, then finally passing it to the guard slows us down much more than just grabbing it and going when the opportunity presents itself.


I'm certainly fine, and would encourage Lauri to run when able after a rebound. I really, really doubt he is told not to do that. Attacking mismatches with him in the post almost never yields good offense for us, so I wouldn't set up my offense to make that a primary goal, but I would do it opportunistically.

That's how we're using him now, but that's not how we used him his first three years. At least not nearly to this extent.

Lauri's percentage of his 2 point FGs that were assisted by year

2017-18: 64%
2018-19: 53%
2019-20: 54
2020-21: 71%


True shooting percentage by season:
17/18: 55%
18/19: 55%
19/20: 56%
20/21: 62%

With this change he also went from a league average efficiency player to an above league average efficiency player, implying that he is well below league average when creating his own shot.

The goal isn't to get Lauri points / touches, the goal is to generate efficient offense and efficient defense. Lauri has been much more efficient on offense and more helpful in his current role than he was in his previous role. There are many things to unpack there though with his own personal growth, changes in talent around him, coaching staff, and other things, so it isn't purely 100% obvious cause and effect here, but my eye test says he doesn't do well creating his own looks and the numbers (both yours and mine) would point to the same thing.

Finally, I'd also note that per minute, Lauri's FGA per 36 / usage are:
17/18: 15.4 / 21.9%
18/19: 17 / 25%
19/20: 14.3 / 21.1%
20/21: 14.9 / 21.1%

He's basically getting the same share of shots/usage this year as he did in two of his three other seasons.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1898 » by E-DC » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:42 am

Since the trade the best 5 man combination is TBJ, Zach, Lauri, Theis, and Coby. It's already a +45.9 in points (per 100 possessions).
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1899 » by PaKii94 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:55 am

Lauri's rating playing without walking TO in Coby and broken WCJ before he was out with injury:
+17

Lauri's net rating after coby/WCJ got benched up to the trade deadline:
+15 (second best on the team)

Lauri after the trade deadline (without coby on the floor since they are yet again linked):
+7 (best on the team)


Lauri was NOT the problem. In fact they ended up marginalizing their 2nd and 3rd best player's with the trade.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1900 » by E-DC » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:02 am

PaKii94 wrote:Lauri's rating playing without walking TO in Coby and broken WCJ before he was out with injury:
+17

Lauri's net rating after coby/WCJ got benched up to the trade deadline:
+15 (second best on the team)

Lauri after the trade deadline (without coby on the floor since they are yet again linked):
+7 (best on the team)


Lauri was NOT the problem. In fact they ended up marginalizing their 2nd and 3rd best player's with the trade.

I don't understand the thinking behind marginalizing Lauri. We get Vuc, Theis, and TBJ, and then decide we're not allowed to have nice things and proceed to shoot ourselves in the foot.

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