2020-2021 College/Draft Thread 2

[cgf]

We can't take all that much from his catch-n-shoot #s given the limited sample size & his lack of experience in that role, but playing off-ball hasn't been his game...

I have to disagree here, having watched every game of his college career. He played almost entirely off-ball as a freshman and still played a ton of off-ball this year. They ran him off a ton of screens, backscreens for lobs, cuts, etc. They started using him more as a PnR ballhandler because they often couldn't get anything going on offense. Obviously he got plenty of isolations too.

I think this is where he'll be lethal at the next level: being off-ball and attacking closeouts. He's so quick and an explosive leaper. His pullup/hesi is very good, he can obviously finish in traffic. His 3PT% will be fine. He's an active cutter who finds lanes. I think if UConn was a better team he'd have spent even less time with the ball in his hands outside of some isolations each night.

That's good to know and makes me even less concerned by his off-ball #s this season. I didn't see any of him last year so had just assumed they put the ball in his hands as much as they did when I watched him this year.

[Nazrmohamed]

I agree. He looks to have the entire package. Future star in the making. I really can't believe how stacked this draft is. People from the outside who haven't taken the time to evaluate tape of each player don't get it yet. 1-5 all have star potential, and then you have players like Bouknight/Barnes/Keon Johnson/Jalen Johnson/Cam Thomas/Kai Jones/Zaire with potential to get there as well. And there's a few more to consider too, but I can't list them all.

Normally I would never make this claim because drafts are such a crapshoot, but at this point I'll be shocked if it doesn't go down as one of the best drafts of all time. I know that's a big statement, but man these kids are good. NBA has a lot of talent coming in soon. It's going to be fun to see the progression year after year with this group.

Like Mobley for example.. sky is the limit, but it might take him 4+ years to really get that body straight, so he can bang with the big boys down low, but it will be worth the wait for whoever drafts him.

How do you define that though? I agree this draft looks stacked up until about pick 8. Thing is after that I see a hard drop-off. In comparison to last yr there were only 3 guys with perennial allstar potential but then you could still find quality starters down the line, maybe all the way to pick 18. Less star potential but alot of nba ready potential. I don't see alot of good players after 8 this yr but you tell me. I see alot of 6'9 Tristan Thompson bodied bigs, short wings and low 3pt% throughout. Remember last draft, even amongst the moon stats when you think of system guys there were like 6 guys shooting above .400 on 3s.

I can't argue with you. Who knows, this draft could end up totally overrated in the long term. But I did watch a lot of bball this past year and saw most of these guys play in a lot of games. This group seems different than most years, but who knows, it might not be. It's pure speculation on my part. But I'm sticking with my evaluations.

if you think the draft isn't good after 8, we're in a bad position considering both of our picks will be later than that. If we could trade both picks and Randle to get in the top 5, I'd do it.

I do have a question though.. who are you putting at 6-8? Just curious as mocks are all over the place from 6-10.

Tbh Idk yet. Typically the Knicks are way worse so I wouldve already done all my research by now. Also if I'm being honest I also have a mock>watch dynamic going on each yr. I know some feel you gotta watch all the games to have an opinion and then create your own mocks. Im just not a fan of college basketball to watch a game and not know who to watch. I first look at mocks and then circle back to catching games of players most times after the fact and it's how I've always done it and it's worked. I've spotted guys in the early second who end up risers. But here's my favorite mock site and I'd probably mirror them except I like Bouknight and Springer more than I like Wagner and Sengun

http://www.tankathon.com/mock_draft

[knickstape4ever]

I need James Bouknight

He’s #6 on my board, but seeing him fall on others (I think ESPN now has him 19 and Wasserman at 23)

Athletic, 3-level shot creator with an elite hesitation move

[knickstape4ever]

I think it may be worthwhile to take a shot on the 5-star recruits that didn’t live up to the hype

I.e. BJ Boston, Ziaire Williams, Josh Christopher

[robillionaire]

I think we got hoodwinked into believing that it was going to be a strong draft, and that's not even me being sour grapes that we don't have a top 5 pick because we have 4 picks in this draft

Now I'll break down why I think that based on tankathon's draft order

Cade - not as good as I thought he'd look, won't score as easily with bully ball against NBA defenses, has to have the ball in his hands, poor spot-up shooter, not very athletic or explosive, would still rather have LaMelo. But he's a lock for #1 and has a lot of potential.

Mobley- who drafts a center top 5? isn't anthony davis. looks more like a souped up mo bamba, good passer, might be ok but not worth losing sleep over. needs a sandwich

Suggs- looked pretty good playing on the most stacked team in NCAA history who made it very easy for him. He looks solid but I'm not particularly wowed

Green-ok in the G-League. Only reason he kept this spot is because he was here when the season started and nobody else rose enough to take the spot and he didn't rise enough to take anybody else's spot.

Kuminga-See above, plus shot 38% FG in the G League and 24% from 3. jesus christ this is what a top 5 player looks like in a stacked draft?

Jalen Johnson-Had maybe two good games all season against Coppin State and then got injured and quit on Duke, can't really shoot, turnover machine

Barnes- Can't score or rebound. SF version of Frank if Frank could pass

Kispert- Is old and from 3 shot 3-10 against BYU 2-8 against UCLA and 2-7 against Baylor in the 3 most important games of the season. That's 28% when they needed him the most. insert reggie miller pic with hands on neck

Sengun-This guy is a top 10 pick now? Damn this is a weak draft. Mystery center from Turkey. In fairness his stats look great but he probably just rose this high because the draft is so weak. I'd probably take him because everyone else looks bad

Wagner-What's so special about this guy? Top 10? Like I'm genuinely confused about this one, no category stands out. How's Mortiz doing?

Keon-bad offensive player, can't shoot, 27% from 3, more turnovers than assists, offensive BPM was 1. lol

Moody- fizzled out in the tournament, shot 6-30 in the last 2 tournament games, doesn't pass, homeless danny green. at least he's young

Bouknight-1.8 ast to 2.8 turnovers a game. shot 29% from 3, trending downwards

Isaiah Jackson- no real offensive game, foul prone, can't shoot, 1 dimensional shot blocker, poor man's nerlens noel, I would still be ok drafting him because reasons

Ziaire Williams- just look at this man's stats, where do you start? it's like looking at a car accident, what went wrong? how is he even in the first round?

Garuba- 6'8 power forward who averages 8ppg in spain or something and shoots 55% from the free throw line

Davion Mitchell- as old as Methuselah, ESPN wants him to go top 10. If we were getting him here at 17th I'd probably be cool with it, but again, he's old

Springer- Anybody else just forget that this guy existed and was supposed to be a lottery pick? I'd be ok taking him here at 18 but nothing looks special here

Kai Jones-Just what we need another power forward with no offensive game averaged 8ppg and a poor rebounder. What am I supposed to be impressed by

Duarte-oh my god... I thought Davion was old... this guy will be 24 when the season starts, reminds me of this kid I know who failed 8th grade 3 times to the point he drove a car to grade school, but he dominated us all in gym

Giddey-this is a good basketball player, finally, something that's interesting to me, at pick 21

Sharpe-just looks like your average run of the mill boring center

Jared Butler-looks ok I guess, is old. would be ok taking him 23rd I guess

Greg Brown-instead of typing it all out, just go here and look at all his weaknesses. So much red it would make your eyes bleed and somehow managed to have a negative OBPM. http://www.tankathon.com/players/greg-brown

Petrusev-Who? At pick 25 We're getting into the 21 year old serbian centers now. That's how bad this is. 6 centers in the top 25 and none of them even look good besides maybe Mobley

Cooper- 6'1 and shoots 22% from 3. Need I say more?

I'm actually just going to stop at 26 because it's not getting any better from here folks.

[SmoothLefty21]

I need James Bouknight

He’s #6 on my board, but seeing him fall on others (I think ESPN now has him 19 and Wasserman at 23)

Athletic, 3-level shot creator with an elite hesitation move

I'm curious if this is just media groupthink or they're getting some feedback from teams/scouts. I'm still at a loss for how this kid may not be a lottery pick.

[Nazrmohamed]

Who's gonna flip the F out when we take BJ Boston in the first round?

[robillionaire]

Who's gonna flip the F out when we take BJ Boston in the first round?

me with excitement

I hope we take isaiah jackson 15th boston at 21 or 33 (ideally giddey at 21 because he's fun and boston at 33 but either way), and terrence clarke at 58th. zero fcks given

[SmoothLefty21]

We can't take all that much from his catch-n-shoot #s given the limited sample size & his lack of experience in that role, but playing off-ball hasn't been his game...

I have to disagree here, having watched every game of his college career. He played almost entirely off-ball as a freshman and still played a ton of off-ball this year. They ran him off a ton of screens, backscreens for lobs, cuts, etc. They started using him more as a PnR ballhandler because they often couldn't get anything going on offense. Obviously he got plenty of isolations too.

I think this is where he'll be lethal at the next level: being off-ball and attacking closeouts. He's so quick and an explosive leaper. His pullup/hesi is very good, he can obviously finish in traffic. His 3PT% will be fine. He's an active cutter who finds lanes. I think if UConn was a better team he'd have spent even less time with the ball in his hands outside of some isolations each night.

That's good to know and makes me even less concerned by his off-ball #s this season. I didn't see any of him last year so had just assumed they put the ball in his hands as much as they did when I watched him this year.

Watch on YouTube

That's a good video of his freshman season where he was a bit of an enigma early on and UConn didn't know exactly how good he was. He was brought along slowly and was "just a guy" in the offense--you'll see plenty of cuts and catch-and-shoot situations. Also DHOs and PnRs, some downscreens. Active on the offensive glass. Defenses aren't giving him special attention. I expect in the NBA he'll be used more as he was as a freshman than he was used as a sophomore.

[Knicksfan1992]

I need James Bouknight

He’s #6 on my board, but seeing him fall on others (I think ESPN now has him 19 and Wasserman at 23)

Athletic, 3-level shot creator with an elite hesitation move

I'm curious if this is just media groupthink or they're getting some feedback from teams/scouts. I'm still at a loss for how this kid may not be a lottery pick.

The low 3 point percentage combined with the negative assist to turnover ratio is never going to win over twitter scouts and draft guys.

But i'm pretty bullish on Bouknight because UConn sucked without him, which shows how desperately they needed him to do a lot and nobody besides Jalen Green has his level of self creation ability in this class. I'm pretty sure Thibs and crew will be able to clean up the decision making and shot selection issues.

[SmoothLefty21]

The low 3 point percentage combined with the negative assist to turnover ratio is never going to win over twitter scouts and draft guys.

I've addressed the 3PT% but I guess it shows how few people follow this stuff closely (I don't mean you, I mean scouts/media/twitter). His shooting was fine his freshman season and fine before mid-season elbow surgery. Anyone who thinks he's a 29% 3PT shooter simply isn't doing their homework. I have no doubt he'll at worst become an average 3PT shooter in the NBA.

Keon Johnson has a negative AST:TO ratio. Moody's is 1:1.

[2010]

Watch on YouTube

This is the Jalen Green / Schmidt session I was talking about. But you will watch this and still pretend like what I was saying to you about this isn't accurate. Players don't look at it the way these dudes do. They're playing off instinct. At certain parts (no I'm not looking for the time-stamps) Green is kinda annoyed but just tryna be polite.

[Knicksfan1992]

The low 3 point percentage combined with the negative assist to turnover ratio is never going to win over twitter scouts and draft guys.

I've addressed the 3PT% but I guess it shows how few people follow this stuff closely (I don't mean you, I mean scouts/media/twitter). His shooting was fine his freshman season and fine before mid-season elbow surgery. Anyone who thinks he's a 29% 3PT shooter simply isn't doing their homework. I have no doubt he'll at worst become an average 3PT shooter in the NBA.

Keon Johnson has a negative AST:TO ratio. Moody's is 1:1.

Yeah I mean it takes watching 1 game of his to know he's not going to be a bad shooter. Again what speaks to me is 11-4 with him this year and 4-4 without him...You can say his style of play doesn't translate to winning because of teh propensity to go 1 on 1 and miss passes, but it quite clearly had an effect on UConn... He's definitely a little bit of a project because he's going to have to adjust his role and his propensity to take tough shots but it's very easy to see him as like a Gary Trent Jr. type player at the next level once he cleans the shots up. I think his ceiling is Lavine without the out of this world hops...but that's not completely necessary anyway. That's just an added bonus with Lavine.

[2010]

Mitchell really isn’t a Thibs type of guard. He likes them a little bigger and more likely to get FT’s. Keep in mind he like Obi too so that only counts so much but I don’t see us taking Davion.

He ran Nate Robinson and Jeff Teague at point before. So I don't think he's inflexible when it comes to the size of his guards. Payton doesn't draw any fouls either and he's still our starter. Mitchell seems like a pretty good penetrator whenever I watched him. Even if he doesn't draw a ton of fouls it should be workable for Thibs.

Teague is 6’3 like every other guard Thibs prefer to works with, Nate was in Chicago for a year, and if Payton was Thibs preferred type of guard we wouldn’t have brought in Rose to take his minutes

TBH, Thibs also ran DJ Augustin out there. He's also pretty small.

[jvsimonetti0514]

He ran Nate Robinson and Jeff Teague at point before. So I don't think he's inflexible when it comes to the size of his guards. Payton doesn't draw any fouls either and he's still our starter. Mitchell seems like a pretty good penetrator whenever I watched him. Even if he doesn't draw a ton of fouls it should be workable for Thibs.

Teague is 6’3 like every other guard Thibs prefer to works with, Nate was in Chicago for a year, and if Payton was Thibs preferred type of guard we wouldn’t have brought in Rose to take his minutes

TBH, Thibs also ran DJ Augustin out there. He's also pretty small.

The only way I think Mitchell's size will truly be an issue if his 6'2" measurements are BS and he's actually 5'11''. Cuz are you really gonna tell me that inch difference between Teague and Mitchell all of a sudden becomes a deal breaker? I just don't see it mattering over an inch.

[3toheadmelo]

Trey Murphy nice. Looks a lot like Deandre Hunter to me. Would take a look at him in the second round if he stays in the draft

Read on Twitter

[thebuzzardman]

Trey Murphy nice. Looks a lot like Deandre Hunter to me. Would take a look at him in the second round if he stays in the draft

Read on Twitter

Thibs would rather see if he can coax Troy Murphy out of retirement

[Polk377]

Suggs- looked pretty good playing on the most stacked team in NCAA history who made it very easy for him. He looks solid but I'm not particularly wowed

Overstatement of the century right there. Might not even be the best Gonzaga team in history let alone all time greats.

[robillionaire]

Suggs- looked pretty good playing on the most stacked team in NCAA history who made it very easy for him. He looks solid but I'm not particularly wowed

Overstatement of the century right there. Might not even be the best Gonzaga team in history let alone all time greats.

out of all the overstatements I made this is the one you focus on

easy to say since they lost the championship game but had they won and gone undefeated rest assured they would have been spoken about as one of the all time greatest teams

[jvsimonetti0514]

Read on Twitter

Another mock this time it has us drafting Kispert and Butler. We draft kispert with Bouknight on the board