Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1221 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:53 pm

Outside wrote:

IIRC, Ben's discussion about Jordan's portability was specifically in reference to LeBron and which of them to place first vs second, and he made the point that, to be at his best, LeBron required a very specific roster construction and offense, which I do think is true. If you accept that argument, then LeBron has, by definition, less portability than Jordan.

A very specific roster construction to do what? To win games and championships? Because he has done that with pretty different rosters. I mean if he won a title with Dwayne Wade who is a ball handler and has no shooting ability, doesn't this kind of debunk that?

Otherwise I am not seeing how Love/Irving, Wade/Bosh and Davis are similar cores. He also made the ECF and NBA finals before he even had other stars and shooters on his team.

I feel like there is this oversimplification that Lebron James needs shooters (the Lakers are not exactly filled with snipers). I don't think he "needs" shooters, it's just a good thing to have shooters...in general.

His big 3 teams signed a bunch of shooters for low prices because what else are they going to sign? They have limited cap space and already have 3 great offensive players - that is just logical team building - if you disagree, then what exactly is the type of team that you need to build around LBJ?

We have seen James go on deep playoff runs with more different type of personal than Jordan did, so why is the burden of proof on James and not Jordan?
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1222 » by homecourtloss » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:14 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Outside wrote:

IIRC, Ben's discussion about Jordan's portability was specifically in reference to LeBron and which of them to place first vs second, and he made the point that, to be at his best, LeBron required a very specific roster construction and offense, which I do think is true. If you accept that argument, then LeBron has, by definition, less portability than Jordan.

A very specific roster construction to do what? To win games and championships? Because he has done that with pretty different rosters. I mean if he won a title with Dwayne Wade who is a ball handler and has no shooting ability, doesn't this kind of debunk that?

Otherwise I am not seeing how Love/Irving, Wade/Bosh and Davis are similar cores. He also made the ECF and NBA finals before he even had other stars and shooters on his team.

I feel like there is this oversimplification that Lebron James needs shooters (the Lakers are not exactly filled with snipers). I don't think he "needs" shooters, it's just a good thing to have shooters...in general.

His big 3 teams signed a bunch of shooters for low prices because what else are they going to sign? They have limited cap space and already have 3 great offensive players - that is just logical team building - if you disagree, then what exactly is the type of team that you need to build around LBJ?

We have seen James go on deep playoff runs with more different type of personal than Jordan did, so why is the burden of proof on James and not Jordan?


Made the finals and won titles with about 5 different roster constructions spanning very, very diffent leagues from tail end of grind era to pace and space era. Lakers won last year being 23rd in 3point attempt rate in the regular season, 11th of 16 teams in the playoffs often playing two bigs. Cavs construction was much different from 2012 Heat. Both were different than 2007–2009 Cavs.

He also won titles with three different high usage players in Wade (30% usage in 2012 playoffs, 25% usage in 2013 playoffs),Kyrie (30% and 31% usage in ‘16 and ‘17 playoffs), AD (28%). Jordan never did and we never found out if he could. Chances are he could, but LeBron DID so why the burden of proof on him.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1223 » by Bidofo » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:53 am

VanWest82 wrote:The issue with guys like this is even if you assume their way of playing is better than any system could replicate, if you can't reproduce it when they're not on the court then you're left with nothing in those mins. That's not just a Lebron problem but something we saw with Nash and Magic (post Dirk and Kareem) who I assume are both probably lower on the portability scale.

I'm curious as to why you consider this a LeBron-related problem though? I've seen this said before as well, but it comes off as odd criticism to me when...pretty much all offenses fall off a cliff when their elite offensive lead leaves the floor lol. I'm not sure if the idea is that coaches just don't practice offense that doesn't involve LeBron/LeBron-ball, or that LeBron's presence somehow prevents a team from signing ball handlers that can run the offense without him.

I would contend that the simplest answer is the correct answer: there are just worse players on the court when LeBron is not on, so you see varying degrees of worse offense. To take it to an extreme example, just look at Curry this year. Kerr clearly has a system built around ball movement that capitalizes on spacing and off-ball play, so when Curry is on the court the Warriors look just about decent but when he leaves they are abysmal. Is that supposed to be an indictment on Curry, who's arguably the most portable player of all time? To see how this is possible on even contending teams you can look at 15 Curry, with him on the Warriors are about a +10 offense, but without him they are a bottom 5 offense. We can even go back to 98 Miller, another figurehead of portability, and see how bad the Pacers offense is without him and great they were with him.

Anyway on to the topic of LeBron's portability in general, I think much of this perception comes from those Miami years, where he was paired with one of the least portable ATGs in history. From 2011 to 2014, Wade shot 1.5 3pa/g at a disgusting 29% clip. LeBron is at a much more respectable 3.4 3pa/g at 37%. For comparison, Pippen from 91 to 94 (right before they shortened the line) shot 1.4 3pa/g at a 28% clip in an era where the 3 was emphasized much less. And his lack of shooting was exposed by none other than the cerebral, defensively elite Spurs teams they met in the Finals, which almost cost them a championship in 2013 (though that's not too fair, that series could have been flipped by the smallest thing lol).

11-14 Heat, RS+PS
LeBron on, Wade off (5390 min): 112.3 ORTG
Wade on, LeBron off (2416 min): 107 ORTG
LeBron and Wade on (9407 min): 113.1 ORTG

Now simple on/off stats are not perfect, there's a ton of context missing, but what these numbers seem to suggest are LeBron lifts Wade only lineups massively, but Wade lifts LeBron only lineups by a smidgen (someone can correct me if my conclusion is wrong here). And I'm also not saying that all of these portability issues are Wade's fault, but you'd have to wonder if Wade could shoot the 3 at even LeBron's volume+clip (let alone an actual shooter) that we even have this conversation. This is pure speculation, but I'd be willing to wager that you'd see a similar phenomenon in Jordan/Pippen lineups if we had that data.

I definitely have my own criticisms of LeBron's portability, he's a pretty bad off-ball screener when there's a scramble, he sometimes unnecessarily stands several feet behind the 3pt line (this is particularly noticeable on his run with the Lakers since he's the PG up top often), but he also has strengths like being the GOAT transition off-ball target, being an excellent cutter, and knowing where to fill in the gaps against a zone defense (more recent versions of him anyway). If I recall correctly, Taylor has him at negative portability for a few years which just doesn't make sense to me, he's neutral at worst.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1224 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:08 am

homecourtloss wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Outside wrote:

IIRC, Ben's discussion about Jordan's portability was specifically in reference to LeBron and which of them to place first vs second, and he made the point that, to be at his best, LeBron required a very specific roster construction and offense, which I do think is true. If you accept that argument, then LeBron has, by definition, less portability than Jordan.

A very specific roster construction to do what? To win games and championships? Because he has done that with pretty different rosters. I mean if he won a title with Dwayne Wade who is a ball handler and has no shooting ability, doesn't this kind of debunk that?

Otherwise I am not seeing how Love/Irving, Wade/Bosh and Davis are similar cores. He also made the ECF and NBA finals before he even had other stars and shooters on his team.

I feel like there is this oversimplification that Lebron James needs shooters (the Lakers are not exactly filled with snipers). I don't think he "needs" shooters, it's just a good thing to have shooters...in general.

His big 3 teams signed a bunch of shooters for low prices because what else are they going to sign? They have limited cap space and already have 3 great offensive players - that is just logical team building - if you disagree, then what exactly is the type of team that you need to build around LBJ?

We have seen James go on deep playoff runs with more different type of personal than Jordan did, so why is the burden of proof on James and not Jordan?


Made the finals and won titles with about 5 different roster constructions spanning very, very diffent leagues from tail end of grind era to pace and space era. Lakers won last year being 23rd in 3point attempt rate in the regular season, 11th of 16 teams in the playoffs often playing two bigs. Cavs construction was much different from 2012 Heat. Both were different than 2007–2009 Cavs.

He also won titles with three different high usage players in Wade (30% usage in 2012 playoffs, 25% usage in 2013 playoffs),Kyrie (30% and 31% usage in ‘16 and ‘17 playoffs), AD (28%). Jordan never did and we never found out if he could. Chsnce sre he could, but LeBron DID so why the burden of proof on him.


I think the belief is that the Miami Heat offenses perhaps didn't perform as well as they should've based on their talent? "Just like rebounds or field goal percentage, adjusted plus-minus is a measurement, a fairly stable gauge of an involved player’s value on a given team. LeBron wasn’t worse during the years in South Beach — based on film study, he was better in most areas — but he wasn’t as indispensable to those Heat teams, and thus his impact measurements clocked in below his historic floor-raising efforts."

Lebron for example has the GOAT peak statistically in 09 according to impact metrics, and the 2 year stretch ever according to RAPTOR, PIPM, TWPR, etc. However, since Lebron never put up those same level of impact metrics again, this is an indicator to Ben that Lebron couldn't have GOAT impact when paired next to another elite wing like Wade, and therefore is portability is negative there. On the flipside, Jordan had lesser impact metrics, but overall they are relatively comparable before Pippen emerged and after, hinting that his game doesn't really get impacted as heavily on offense with star wings.

I'm not sure I totally agree, but this is basically his thinking. If Lebron had put up similar impact metrics, that would be an indicator that his impact carries.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1225 » by Odinn21 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:29 am

Outside wrote:
Max123 wrote:
Outside wrote:
In the Duncan/Hakeem debate, or really Duncan vs anyone, the thing is that this series is about peaks. To me, part of what makes Duncan so special is maintaining such a high level of performance over such a long period of time. While you can say he had a peak, his career is more accurately depicted as an exceptionally high plateau that tapered off. That differs from many all-time greats who had a more pronounced peak, and with that, more pronounced relative lows on either side of the peak. Walton would be the extreme example of that, barely having enough to qualify for a three-season peak but reaching spectacular heights during that peak.

I don't consider it a negative that Duncan didn't have a peak that was considerably pronounced, but the fact is that a career like that won't rank as highly when assessing peaks. Duncan played 19 seasons. He averaged 19.0 points for his career, and his season high was 25.5. He averaged 10.8 rebounds for his career, and his season high was 12.5. His PS numbers are somewhat "peakier" but show similar resiliency. Consistency defines his career more than a peak. Given that, it's remarkable that he even broke into the top ten.

I’ve heard people say this same thing about Duncan not having a peak but I don’t really understand it. Don’t almost all things one could possibly look at clearly point at 2003 as an amazing peak with his performance dropping going farther back or forwards in time?


The point is that, compared to other players, the difference between any three-season peak and the surrounding seasons is much less dramatic than it is for others.

I don’t think I agree with this. Duncan’s peak was a pretty peaky peak.
Just a quick example with Duncan’s obpm numbers;

5.2 in reg. seasons and 6.3 in playoffs from 2002 to 2003
4.6 in reg. seasons and 4.8 in playoffs from 2001 to 2005
4.0 in reg. seasons and 4.7 in playoffs from 1999 to 2007
3.4 in reg. seasons and 3.7 in playoffs for career

TBH your point came across as that’s a statement of a person who did not appreciate 2002 and 2003 Duncan enough. And I’ll be candid, saying Duncan’s peak doesn’t stand out is flat out wrong.

Another thing I do not agree with is almost all of the top 11 players ever had good surrounding seasons around their peak seasons. I mean;
Is 1984-86 Bird that better than 1983 or 1987-1988 Bird?
Similar with 1987-89 Magic and 1985-1986 or 1990-1991?
Or with 1987-88 Jordan and 1993 Jordan?

The only player whose single season peak does not feel that consistent with 2 or 3 season peak or 5 season prime is Shaquille O’Neal. His defensive performance in 2001 and 2002 was just way worse than 2000 because he was out of shape and he did not have proper consistency.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1226 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:24 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:A very specific roster construction to do what? To win games and championships? Because he has done that with pretty different rosters. I mean if he won a title with Dwayne Wade who is a ball handler and has no shooting ability, doesn't this kind of debunk that?

Otherwise I am not seeing how Love/Irving, Wade/Bosh and Davis are similar cores. He also made the ECF and NBA finals before he even had other stars and shooters on his team.

I feel like there is this oversimplification that Lebron James needs shooters (the Lakers are not exactly filled with snipers). I don't think he "needs" shooters, it's just a good thing to have shooters...in general.

His big 3 teams signed a bunch of shooters for low prices because what else are they going to sign? They have limited cap space and already have 3 great offensive players - that is just logical team building - if you disagree, then what exactly is the type of team that you need to build around LBJ?

We have seen James go on deep playoff runs with more different type of personal than Jordan did, so why is the burden of proof on James and not Jordan?


Made the finals and won titles with about 5 different roster constructions spanning very, very diffent leagues from tail end of grind era to pace and space era. Lakers won last year being 23rd in 3point attempt rate in the regular season, 11th of 16 teams in the playoffs often playing two bigs. Cavs construction was much different from 2012 Heat. Both were different than 2007–2009 Cavs.

He also won titles with three different high usage players in Wade (30% usage in 2012 playoffs, 25% usage in 2013 playoffs),Kyrie (30% and 31% usage in ‘16 and ‘17 playoffs), AD (28%). Jordan never did and we never found out if he could. Chsnce sre he could, but LeBron DID so why the burden of proof on him.


I think the belief is that the Miami Heat offenses perhaps didn't perform as well as they should've based on their talent? "Just like rebounds or field goal percentage, adjusted plus-minus is a measurement, a fairly stable gauge of an involved player’s value on a given team. LeBron wasn’t worse during the years in South Beach — based on film study, he was better in most areas — but he wasn’t as indispensable to those Heat teams, and thus his impact measurements clocked in below his historic floor-raising efforts."

Lebron for example has the GOAT peak statistically in 09 according to impact metrics, and the 2 year stretch ever according to RAPTOR, PIPM, TWPR, etc. However, since Lebron never put up those same level of impact metrics again, this is an indicator to Ben that Lebron couldn't have GOAT impact when paired next to another elite wing like Wade, and therefore is portability is negative there. On the flipside, Jordan had lesser impact metrics, but overall they are relatively comparable before Pippen emerged and after, hinting that his game doesn't really get impacted as heavily on offense with star wings.

I'm not sure I totally agree, but this is basically his thinking. If Lebron had put up similar impact metrics, that would be an indicator that his impact carries.
I know this isn't your stance, so I don't mean to shoot the messenger.

The Miami Heat were an elite offense 3/4 seasons they were together, they were a better offensive team than a defensive team and their defense wasn't chop liver.


That's not to mention that James played wtih TWO ball dominant, isolation players. Not just one. Both Wade and Bosh were big time scorers - Scottie Pippen wasn't as good of a scorer as either one, and that was the best scorer Jordan played with. The standard doesn't seem very fair still, it still seems like the burden of proof is on James not Jordan when James actually did what he is criticized for and Jordan did not.

We're basically saying that Lebron James had a god like season with meh teammates in 2009 but because he didn't do the same thing in 2011-2014 when he was less athletic and arguably a worse player, that he is less portable. I think that is a pretty ridiculous argument if that is his argument. There are so many holes and logical fallciies in that, it's hard to even know where to begin - what if Lebron James actually DID peak in 2009 and if his impact stats are better than Jordan's wouldn't that just put an end to the argument right there?


Another thing is coasting is certainly a thing, and sometimes teams that are crazy stacked don't really give a damn. The 2016 Warriors dominated the regular season far harder than the Durant era Warriors but no one is really going to say that they were a worse team with Durant.


I do feel like Lebron James is often criticized for the aesthetics of his play (even as a scorer he is criticized for not taking crazy mid range shots and the like). Some people will just ignore that what he does is effective and perhaps even optimal because they almost imagine this utopia based team that runs the perfect version of the Princeton Offense.

He plays with different types of players and gets results - that would seem like he is a very portable player. It almost seems like he now has to hit an arbitrary imaginary mark of "goodness" during the regular season (which we know obsession over RS success doesn't generate a higher chance of winning a championship which is the goal).

In the post season the Cavs big 3, which has an isolation score first PG and a 24 volume scorer as the 3rd option punched to incredible heights on offense - so much to the point that it didn't even matter if they were a flawed defense. So one way or another, he has basically hit that arbitrary mark of "anchor a team with a god like offense".



I don't know, BT emphasizes on winning and what is important - and his first video was even a video about how Russell was better than Chamberlain because he did things to help win championship. It seems like his way of thinking that is gone when he looks at the portability of Lebron James - as he is essentially criticizing him for something that isn't relevant to winning a title.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1227 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:18 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
Made the finals and won titles with about 5 different roster constructions spanning very, very diffent leagues from tail end of grind era to pace and space era. Lakers won last year being 23rd in 3point attempt rate in the regular season, 11th of 16 teams in the playoffs often playing two bigs. Cavs construction was much different from 2012 Heat. Both were different than 2007–2009 Cavs.

He also won titles with three different high usage players in Wade (30% usage in 2012 playoffs, 25% usage in 2013 playoffs),Kyrie (30% and 31% usage in ‘16 and ‘17 playoffs), AD (28%). Jordan never did and we never found out if he could. Chsnce sre he could, but LeBron DID so why the burden of proof on him.


I think the belief is that the Miami Heat offenses perhaps didn't perform as well as they should've based on their talent? "Just like rebounds or field goal percentage, adjusted plus-minus is a measurement, a fairly stable gauge of an involved player’s value on a given team. LeBron wasn’t worse during the years in South Beach — based on film study, he was better in most areas — but he wasn’t as indispensable to those Heat teams, and thus his impact measurements clocked in below his historic floor-raising efforts."

Lebron for example has the GOAT peak statistically in 09 according to impact metrics, and the 2 year stretch ever according to RAPTOR, PIPM, TWPR, etc. However, since Lebron never put up those same level of impact metrics again, this is an indicator to Ben that Lebron couldn't have GOAT impact when paired next to another elite wing like Wade, and therefore is portability is negative there. On the flipside, Jordan had lesser impact metrics, but overall they are relatively comparable before Pippen emerged and after, hinting that his game doesn't really get impacted as heavily on offense with star wings.

I'm not sure I totally agree, but this is basically his thinking. If Lebron had put up similar impact metrics, that would be an indicator that his impact carries.
I know this isn't your stance, so I don't mean to shoot the messenger.

The Miami Heat were an elite offense 3/4 seasons they were together, they were a better offensive team than a defensive team and their defense wasn't chop liver.


That's not to mention that James played wtih TWO ball dominant, isolation players. Not just one. Both Wade and Bosh were big time scorers - Scottie Pippen wasn't as good of a scorer as either one, and that was the best scorer Jordan played with. The standard doesn't seem very fair still, it still seems like the burden of proof is on James not Jordan when James actually did what he is criticized for and Jordan did not.

We're basically saying that Lebron James had a god like season with meh teammates in 2009 but because he didn't do the same thing in 2011-2014 when he was less athletic and arguably a worse player, that he is less portable. I think that is a pretty ridiculous argument if that is his argument. There are so many holes and logical fallciies in that, it's hard to even know where to begin - what if Lebron James actually DID peak in 2009 and if his impact stats are better than Jordan's wouldn't that just put an end to the argument right there?


Another thing is coasting is certainly a thing, and sometimes teams that are crazy stacked don't really give a damn. The 2016 Warriors dominated the regular season far harder than the Durant era Warriors but no one is really going to say that they were a worse team with Durant.


I do feel like Lebron James is often criticized for the aesthetics of his play (even as a scorer he is criticized for not taking crazy mid range shots and the like). Some people will just ignore that what he does is effective and perhaps even optimal because they almost imagine this utopia based team that runs the perfect version of the Princeton Offense.

He plays with different types of players and gets results - that would seem like he is a very portable player. It almost seems like he now has to hit an arbitrary imaginary mark of "goodness" during the regular season (which we know obsession over RS success doesn't generate a higher chance of winning a championship which is the goal).

In the post season the Cavs big 3, which has an isolation score first PG and a 24 volume scorer as the 3rd option punched to incredible heights on offense - so much to the point that it didn't even matter if they were a flawed defense. So one way or another, he has basically hit that arbitrary mark of "anchor a team with a god like offense".



I don't know, BT emphasizes on winning and what is important - and his first video was even a video about how Russel was better than Chamberlain because he did things to help win championships - but it seems like his way of thinking that when he looks at the portability of Lebron James - as he is essentially criticizing him for something that isn't relevant to winning a title.


Yeah, I'm with you mostly. With regards to putting up GOAT metrics in 2009 and 2010, Ben Taylor considers Lebron in a tier of his own as a floor-raiser according to his Backpicks profile and some things he has said on his podcast. He basically said he is the only person he believes can consistently floor-raise to 60 plus wins. So I think he would say it makes since the impact metrics say he is the most valuable ever, because similar to what he said in his Final Peaks video, Lebrn can have maybe unmatched impact on the ball, but he has to have th ball in his hands to do it. And in Taylor's mind Lebron's floor-raising, doesn't trump what MJ can do when surrounded by more ball-dominant players (in terms of championship odds).

In terms of Lebron's plays with the 2nd stint Cavs, Taylor actually believes he became more portable by then. He writes about this in his Backpicks writeup, as from 2016 to now, he has come out at neutral portability. He writes this..."The above graph also jibes with the scouting report; as LeBron’s passing steadily improved and his shot selection grew more judicious, he synthesized with better talent, correlating with larger and larger scoreboard shifts after a nadir in 2012. This was a two-way street: As LeBron’s more efficient passing helped the talent around him — Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love posted career-best marks in scaled APM in 2017 — his improved 3-point shooting allowed him to finish more plays setup by his teammates. (Notice in the previous charts how LeBron’s efficiency improved alongside Irving."
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1228 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:47 pm

The whole concept of portability has taken on far too much weight in general. And I'm glad HBK called it out on Lebron, but its true of any number of players who are criticized for not being portable when we saw them succeed in so many different situations. My guy Dirk another example of a player never lauded for portability yet despite staying in Dallas, he played on wildly different rosters for wildly different coaches and just had dominant season after dominant season.

Portability is a way to bump up players people like but can't otherwise justify. It's so intangible a concept that they realize they can just throw it out there and it can't be proven or disproven.

And we see some players who are considered the most portable clearly fail under certain team constructions, have minimal success in others, and then really excel in others. That strikes me as less portable if anything. It's almost like a way to double count versatility, another somewhat overrated aspect to a star player's game. Versatility far more important for complementary players.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1229 » by Ainosterhaspie » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:22 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
In terms of Lebron's plays with the 2nd stint Cavs, Taylor actually believes he became more portable by then. He writes about this in his Backpicks writeup, as from 2016 to now, he has come out at neutral portability. He writes this..."The above graph also jibes with the scouting report; as LeBron’s passing steadily improved and his shot selection grew more judicious, he synthesized with better talent, correlating with larger and larger scoreboard shifts after a nadir in 2012. This was a two-way street: As LeBron’s more efficient passing helped the talent around him — Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love posted career-best marks in scaled APM in 2017 — his improved 3-point shooting allowed him to finish more plays setup by his teammates. (Notice in the previous charts how LeBron’s efficiency improved alongside Irving."


Better passing? I don't know. Maybe. Better 3 point shooting. Have to disagree there. His three point shooting peaked in 2013. His mid range was very strong that year as well. It tapered off in the playoffs and almost cost them the title, but he talked about how he in the middle of the series reminded himself he was a strong shooter and decided to take the shots the Spurs gave him. His scoring turned around and they won the series.

The Cavs roster was a better roster for spacing. Irving is superior to Wade as an outside shooter by a significant margin and Love is much better than Bosh there as well. Then there was JR to give additional spacing. Three strong outside shooters in the starting lineup all better than James from three. With the Heat only Mario Chalmers was superior to James from outside and then only slightly.

So was James suddenly more portable, or did the Cavs just have a more balanced offensive roster making James look more portable?

Isn't the real issue offensive redundancies. You don't need 5 players who are dominant at the basket, but terrible outside. Defense collapses and can guard all of them at once. The opposite, five dead eye shooters with no ability to penetrate, isn't too useful either. Defenders can fan out along the three point line and challenge every shot. You need a balance. Players who exert pressure inside and players who can exert pressure on the perimeter. A player who can do both is very valuable.

It's more useful to have 3 guys who exert perimeter pressure than 3 guys who exert interior pressure because the former forces the defense to cover more space. One defender can more realistically cover three guys inside all at once, than three guys spaced on the perimeter at once. (I realize both are unrealistic against quality players, but just trying to illustrate the principle in a simplified way.)

One player cannot provide all the perimeter spacing on his own. That's a task for two or three players at least, and even four perimeter spacers has minimal redundancy. Take the "portable" perimeter spacer guy and put him on a team that has weak perimeter spacing otherwise and he'll help no doubt, but that team is going to have issues with clogged paint making things difficult for the other guys. The shooter might occupy one or two defenders, but the others can camp in the driving lanes because there isn't enough outside shooting.

This isn't a flaw in the shooter's portability, it's a flaw in the roster construction. There's a hole that one guy simply can't fix. He may be a transcendent enough player to have a good even great offense despite the holes, but the full potential of an offense with this player will never be realized without other shooters on the floor.

An elite offense can fall apart because of a small flaw. We saw that with the Warriors in the 2016 finals. The Cavaliers conceded open shots to Barnes, he couldn't convert and the series changed. They had a beautiful system, highly portable Curry, and the offense seized up, because one player couldn't hit an open shot.

Why did the Warriors go from merely very good to otherworldly when they went with their death lineup? Everyone in that lineup could shoot decently, run the floor, push the ball on the dribble, make quick smart reads and passes, they were young enough (or with Iggy played few enough minutes) to play with high energy. Take any of that away and you don't reach the same heights.

Why do so few teams manage elite motion offenses? Everyone seems to think that's the ideal, but it's rarely realized. One inadequate player with bad hands or slow decision making can gum the whole thing up.

---

How would high portability guys fit on those Heat teams. Let's port Curry into the 2013 Heat. You're probably not running a Chalmers/Curry/Wade lineup very often. Curry is probably pushing Chalmers out of the rotation. Bring in a average Small Forward who is a decent defender and decent shooter for the position. Obviously you three point shooting at the PG position has improved, but now the three point shooting at SF has probably gotten worse. Instead of two 40% three point shooters in the starting lineup, you have one. Spacing might be worse in this lineup despite Curry being significantly better than James as a shooter.

Even if the offense gets better, defense is now in big trouble. James was the Heart of the Miami defense and now that's been downgraded. Miami can try to go small with something like Curry/Wade/Allen/Battier/Bosh, but without the James/Green small ball forward who can be a defensive anchor, that lineup won't have the tools to deal with size.

--

So let's port in Jordan instead of James onto that 2013 Heat team. He's certainly a better midrange shooter, but you're still dealing with lineups that have four guys operating in the midrange or closer and one guy spacing. Going small will work better than with Curry, but Jordan isn't defending troublesome fours and fives as well as James. He wasn't a deadly three point shooter that forced defenders out to the perimeter.

You don't want him ceding shots to Wade and Bosh, he's better at that than they are. They probably end up taking even fewer shots than they did with James. Wade had four of his five best Fg% and eFG% years playing next to James. What is Jordan doing that improves that? I'm not seeing it. The flaws in the Heat offense remain even with portable Jordan added, and the defensive weaknesses are exacerbated because Jordan doesn't cover the lack of interior defense as well as James.

--

I'm interested in the Mechanics of how the offense improves with the more portable guys. (It's also important to look at the defensive changes as well.) How does teammates' offense improve? Are they getting more shots, better looks? Why? Are the portable guys converting less effective scoring by a teammate into more effective scoring by the portable guy by taking touches away from the teammates. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a fairly simple explanation. But most of the time it doesn't seem like this is what people are talking about. It's more of a mysterious process where teammates are better, but the how of them scoring with greater volume and/or efficiency isn't really adequately explained.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1230 » by falcolombardi » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:10 pm

First thinghs first, hi to everyone here. Have been a lurker for some months following this board projects like sansterre list, the top 100 project or thinking basketball and finally made an account

somethingh i want to mention in this scalability debate is how weird i find it that ben taylor values (with good reason) offball value of players so much

yet when he makes the "fitting in with good teams and ceiling raising" argument. he acts as if a good team HAS to have a ton of high usage, low off ball value players (the kind taylor considers overvalued)

think about jordan teams here

a mid-high usage guy with lots of defense value and passing (not a great shooter but brings a lot of impact without ballhogging otherwise)

amd the third best players in his teams were low usage, huge offball (rebounds, defense, spot up shooting) value in their games (horace grant and rodman)

not exactlt the archetypical big 3 with 3 great scorers/playmakers who cam generate on their own amd we saw how incredible that formula was

compare with lebron whose heat superteam had less offball value than jordan's (wade not havimg pippen defense) and which results were a bit worse than the sum of their parts

now look at a older lebron, without a third star in lakers but with a second star and role players who dont overlap with him and take advantage of lebron floor raising while they do everythingh else but playmaking or even the low talent but better fit early cavs teams that won 60+ games a couple times

is it the elite on ball playmaker (lebron, jordan, magic) duty to give up the ball to a worse player so his value is maximized instead? is not it backwards to judge first options by how well they adapt their games to maximize the second option game?

most elite teams have no more than two great ball handling/high usage players, team with so much talent that you start worryng about lebron or magic needing handling the ball too much are for most purposes nearly nonexistant historically, the average champion teams rosters are a lot less perfect than the ideal 2017 warriors or 2021 nets
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1231 » by Fadeaway_J » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:39 am

Texas Chuck wrote:The whole concept of portability has taken on far too much weight in general. And I'm glad HBK called it out on Lebron, but its true of any number of players who are criticized for not being portable when we saw them succeed in so many different situations. My guy Dirk another example of a player never lauded for portability yet despite staying in Dallas, he played on wildly different rosters for wildly different coaches and just had dominant season after dominant season.

Portability is a way to bump up players people like but can't otherwise justify. It's so intangible a concept that they realize they can just throw it out there and it can't be proven or disproven.

And we see some players who are considered the most portable clearly fail under certain team constructions, have minimal success in others, and then really excel in others. That strikes me as less portable if anything. It's almost like a way to double count versatility, another somewhat overrated aspect to a star player's game. Versatility far more important for complementary players.

I just think it's too narrow a concept as Ben applies it. He seems to focus on this exceedingly rare hypothetical where a good team with multiple on-ball creators (!) somehow manages to add a LeBron or a Magic (!!) without sacrificing any of their existing talent (!!!). Maybe that happens in one of our games on the T&T board, but it's a highly improbable scenario in real life. Then he somehow interprets LeBron's great offensive results without Wade and Kyrie as a strike against LeBron's portability rather than - Wade's or Kyrie's. :-? Weird.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1232 » by Snakebites » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:58 am

Fadeaway_J wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:The whole concept of portability has taken on far too much weight in general. And I'm glad HBK called it out on Lebron, but its true of any number of players who are criticized for not being portable when we saw them succeed in so many different situations. My guy Dirk another example of a player never lauded for portability yet despite staying in Dallas, he played on wildly different rosters for wildly different coaches and just had dominant season after dominant season.

Portability is a way to bump up players people like but can't otherwise justify. It's so intangible a concept that they realize they can just throw it out there and it can't be proven or disproven.

And we see some players who are considered the most portable clearly fail under certain team constructions, have minimal success in others, and then really excel in others. That strikes me as less portable if anything. It's almost like a way to double count versatility, another somewhat overrated aspect to a star player's game. Versatility far more important for complementary players.

I just think it's too narrow a concept as Ben applies it. He seems to focus on this exceedingly rare hypothetical where a good team with multiple on-ball creators (!) somehow manages to add a LeBron or a Magic (!!) without sacrificing any of their existing talent (!!!). Maybe that happens in one of our games on the T&T board, but it's a highly improbable scenario in real life. Then he somehow interprets LeBron's great offensive results without Wade and Kyrie as a strike against LeBron's portability rather than - Wade's or Kyrie's. :-? Weird.

I'm not sure why portability matters in this discussion when you're talking about a player like Lebron where you can build an elite offense with them as the lone cornerstone, either.

It makes sense to talk about it with someone like David Robinson or Kevin Garnett, who weren't good enough scorers/playmakers to be the number one options on great offenses, but had skillsets that complement other great players well. Like, I understand valuing KG's offense over Duncans for that reason. Not sure I 100% agree with it, but I understand the logic of it.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1233 » by falcolombardi » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:13 am

since there has been a lot of debate on portability regarding duncan vs garnett or lebron vs jordan

what about magic vs bird?, what did you guys think about that ranking of bird over magic? they are players i am not too familiar with since i have watched a lot less of them compared to players of "my time"
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1234 » by LukaTheGOAT » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:34 am

falcolombardi wrote:since there has been a lot of debate on portability regarding duncan vs garnett or lebron vs jordan

what about magic vs bird?, what did you guys think about that ranking of bird over magic? they are players i am not too familiar with since i have watched a lot less of them compared to players of "my time"


I think the board probably favors peak Bird over Magic a bit because of Bird's defense. Magic was the better offensive player, but Bird played off the ball more and had good defensive instincts.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1235 » by Djoker » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:43 pm

I think a few people in this thread are misunderstanding the argument myself and a few others are making.

I'm not saying that Lebron can't lead different rosters to championships including rosters with ball-dominant stars like Wade. I'm saying that Lebron doesn't maximize the potential of those rosters. It's possible to win titles and still not help your team reach their maximum potential. After all Lebron never being a part of an all-time great team like the 60's Celtics, 80's Lakers, 80's Celtics, 90's Bulls, early 00's Lakers, 10's Warriors is often used as an argument against him. Almost all other GOAT candidates were part of GOAT-level teams. Except Lebron... maybe that has a lot to do with his lack of ability to mesh with other on-ball superstars. Regardless of which term we use for that... portability, meshability, scalability whatever.

Note that I'm not saying that Lebron has no off-ball game. Of course he does. But not being an ultra quick decision maker (ala say Bird), great shooter, exceptional cutter, great screen setter etc. limits his off-ball value. Compared to a player like Bird or Curry or MJ (although I wouldn't even put Jordan in the same category as the other two), Lebron is very limited in his off-ball game compared to the greats in that department. I don't know how that can be debated still. It's a fact. And Lebron being good in transition or on defense has nothing to do with his offensive value when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Some folks in these threads are deflecting my arguments. Perhaps I could expressed myself better but I definitely wasn't talking about some of the things people were responding with and the debate became around something I wasn't even intending to debate like Lebron's transition value...

Now of course one can say who cares if Lebron maximizes rosters as long as they win. I disagree because someone who doesn't maximize the potential of the roster needs more talent to win than someone that can make the most of the available talent.
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Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1236 » by Max123 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:47 pm

Djoker wrote:I think a few people in this thread are misunderstanding the argument myself and a few others are making.

I'm not saying that Lebron can't lead different rosters to championships including rosters with ball-dominant stars like Wade. I'm saying that Lebron doesn't maximize the potential of those rosters. It's possible to win titles and still not help your team reach their maximum potential. After all Lebron never being a part of an all-time great team like the 60's Celtics, 80's Lakers, 80's Celtics, 90's Bulls, early 00's Lakers, 10's Warriors is often used as an argument against him. Almost all other GOAT candidates were part of GOAT-level teams. Except Lebron... maybe that has a lot to do with his lack of ability to mesh with other on-ball superstars. Regardless of which term we use for that... portability, meshability, scalability whatever.

Note that I'm not saying that Lebron has no off-ball game. Of course he does. But not being an ultra quick decision maker (ala say Bird), great shooter, exceptional cutter, great screen setter etc. limits his off-ball value. Compared to a player like Bird or Curry or MJ (although I wouldn't even put Jordan in the same category as the other two), Lebron is very limited in his off-ball game compared to the greats in that department. I don't know how that can be debated still. It's a fact. And Lebron being good in transition or on defense has nothing to do with his offensive value when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Some folks in these threads are deflecting my arguments.

Now of course one can say who cares if Lebron maximizes rosters as long as they win. I disagree because someone who doesn't maximize the potential of the roster needs more talent to win than someone that can make the most of the available talent.

Among those teams you mentione as being ATG, one of them seems to be led by a player who, on a surface level, had a similar style offensively to, especially later on in his career, Lebron: the player is Magic and 1980s Lakers.

What do you think Magic perhaps did to do a better job at maximising his team potential than Lebron offensively?

Edit: If ofcourse this is what you are saying.

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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1237 » by falcolombardi » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:46 pm

the main reason lebron was not part of a dinasty has to do with him being on 3 different franchises which i guess csn be a criticism but imo, it shoulsnt count wheb evaluating a individual player

prime lebron (2009-2020) made 9 of 12 finals and won 4 rings

not much worse if at all than bird and the 80 celtics 3 rings and 5 finals. and if we go with lebron longer prime against him, he still won 3 rings and made 5 finals between 2012-2016 alone, still one year less than celtics took (81-86)

shaq won 4 rings and made 5 finals

duncan prime from 1997 to 2008 (roughly) had 4 rings too and reached a bunch of wcf (real finals some of those years)

warriors were dominant and won 3 rings in 5 finals over 5 years.... aka the same lebron did between 2012 and 2016

even magic looks similar enough, he came into the league a lot older than lebron and his career had 5 rings and 8 finals in 13 years, lebron is at 4 rings,9 finals in 12 years and may still get his 5th ring in a 13th year


is lebron really less succesful than them when you compare titles won/dinasties?

he only loses to russel and jordan in career success

and jordan actually played in teams with less scorers/ballhandlers than lebron so i dont see what low portability cause high usage would have to do with it

(remember jordan only had pippen as a high ish usage teamamte and his third best players were actually low usage guys like grant and rodman)

if anythingh jordan and the bulls seem to show great teams dont need to have multiple high usage guys around their offensive star to be great, which is a model i believe lebron teams should have imitated instead of putting scorer big 3's like miami and cavs did
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1238 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:06 pm

Djoker wrote:I think a few people in this thread are misunderstanding the argument myself and a few others are making.

I'm not saying that Lebron can't lead different rosters to championships including rosters with ball-dominant stars like Wade. I'm saying that Lebron doesn't maximize the potential of those rosters. It's possible to win titles and still not help your team reach their maximum potential. After all Lebron never being a part of an all-time great team like the 60's Celtics, 80's Lakers, 80's Celtics, 90's Bulls, early 00's Lakers, 10's Warriors is often used as an argument against him. Almost all other GOAT candidates were part of GOAT-level teams. Except Lebron... maybe that has a lot to do with his lack of ability to mesh with other on-ball superstars. Regardless of which term we use for that... portability, meshability, scalability whatever.

Note that I'm not saying that Lebron has no off-ball game. Of course he does. But not being an ultra quick decision maker (ala say Bird), great shooter, exceptional cutter, great screen setter etc. limits his off-ball value. Compared to a player like Bird or Curry or MJ (although I wouldn't even put Jordan in the same category as the other two), Lebron is very limited in his off-ball game compared to the greats in that department. I don't know how that can be debated still. It's a fact. And Lebron being good in transition or on defense has nothing to do with his offensive value when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Some folks in these threads are deflecting my arguments. Perhaps I could expressed myself better but I definitely wasn't talking about some of the things people were responding with and the debate became around something I wasn't even intending to debate like Lebron's transition value...

Now of course one can say who cares if Lebron maximizes rosters as long as they win. I disagree because someone who doesn't maximize the potential of the roster needs more talent to win than someone that can make the most of the available talent.


I understand your point. I just disagree with the premise.

If I have Lebron I am building the team around him. Every time. Period. So I'm never trying to fit him into different teams. I'm trying to fit teams around him. And in the real world teams are allowed to make transactions in order to do so.

And I'm absolutely never playing Lebron off ball. And if the problem is I decide Wade can't play off ball either and so it doesn't work(though obviously it worked incredibly well) then bye bye Mr Wade, not bye bye Lebron.

And this is why portability should not be such a huge factor. Because if you are valuing a guy who is clearly a worse player more because he can do less valuable things better you are missing the forest for your favorite trees.

Now if we want to talk about Danny Green and how portable he is, absolutely he is and that's why he plays for contenders literally every single year.

But when we talk about franchise players, we aren't concerned with shoehorning them in. They are what make the winning possible and I'm not trying to make the 4-9th guys on the roster as good as possible, I'm trying to get those guys to complement my franchise.

Otherwise Steve Nash is probably the GOAT and we all know that to not be true.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1239 » by Snakebites » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:14 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Djoker wrote:I think a few people in this thread are misunderstanding the argument myself and a few others are making.

I'm not saying that Lebron can't lead different rosters to championships including rosters with ball-dominant stars like Wade. I'm saying that Lebron doesn't maximize the potential of those rosters. It's possible to win titles and still not help your team reach their maximum potential. After all Lebron never being a part of an all-time great team like the 60's Celtics, 80's Lakers, 80's Celtics, 90's Bulls, early 00's Lakers, 10's Warriors is often used as an argument against him. Almost all other GOAT candidates were part of GOAT-level teams. Except Lebron... maybe that has a lot to do with his lack of ability to mesh with other on-ball superstars. Regardless of which term we use for that... portability, meshability, scalability whatever.

Note that I'm not saying that Lebron has no off-ball game. Of course he does. But not being an ultra quick decision maker (ala say Bird), great shooter, exceptional cutter, great screen setter etc. limits his off-ball value. Compared to a player like Bird or Curry or MJ (although I wouldn't even put Jordan in the same category as the other two), Lebron is very limited in his off-ball game compared to the greats in that department. I don't know how that can be debated still. It's a fact. And Lebron being good in transition or on defense has nothing to do with his offensive value when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Some folks in these threads are deflecting my arguments. Perhaps I could expressed myself better but I definitely wasn't talking about some of the things people were responding with and the debate became around something I wasn't even intending to debate like Lebron's transition value...

Now of course one can say who cares if Lebron maximizes rosters as long as they win. I disagree because someone who doesn't maximize the potential of the roster needs more talent to win than someone that can make the most of the available talent.


I understand your point. I just disagree with the premise.

If I have Lebron I am building the team around him. Every time. Period. So I'm never trying to fit him into different teams. I'm trying to fit teams around him. And in the real world teams are allowed to make transactions in order to do so.

And I'm absolutely never playing Lebron off ball. And if the problem is I decide Wade can't play off ball either and so it doesn't work(though obviously it worked incredibly well) then bye bye Mr Wade, not bye bye Lebron.

And this is why portability should not be such a huge factor. Because if you are valuing a guy who is clearly a worse player more because he can do less valuable things better you are missing the forest for your favorite trees.

Now if we want to talk about Danny Green and how portable he is, absolutely he is and that's why he plays for contenders literally every single year.

But when we talk about franchise players, we aren't concerned with shoehorning them in. They are what make the winning possible and I'm not trying to make the 4-9th guys on the roster as good as possible, I'm trying to get those guys to complement my franchise.

Otherwise Steve Nash is probably the GOAT and we all know that to not be true.

I think the premise here is that, if you hypothetically have a player with a similar impact to Lebron who you CAN add a guy like Wade to without reducing the impact of either player (or achieving less reduction), then said player is more valuable than Lebron.

I would agree with that, but no such player exists, and I’m not convinced such a player could exist.

The conclusion in this series is that Jordan is such a player. I don’t feel that this is the correct conclusion though.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#1240 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:25 pm

Snakebites wrote:I think the premise here is that, if you hypothetically have a player with a similar impact to Lebron who you CAN add a guy line Wade to without reducing the impact of either player, then said player is more valuable than Lebron.

I would agree with that, but no such player exists, and I’m not convinced such a player could exist.


I mean the arguments IRL come down to Russell and Duncan and maybe Kareem. And I can't really argue Duncan and Kareem have similar impact to Lebron and Russell is just so unique in how his impact is registered so yeah that player doesn't exist.

And I understand the argument, but that tie-breaker is never going to come into play with players this good. It comes into play with asking do I want Scottie Pippen, Kevin McHale, or Draymond Green perhaps.

Like take my current little Mavs--Luka would score extremely lowly on the portability scale. Okay. So what? If you have Luka, you are never thinking what I want to do is run you off staggered screens on the weak side, or maybe use you as the screener in the PNR or hey Luka go stand in the corner. So saying well Trae Young could be more useful doing those things so I'd rather have him because of portability is just silly.
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