As a Scoring Point Guard, Steph Has No Serious Rival

[DCasey91]

Doesn't really affect the main point. I'm sure by that point some would be arguing Goodrich was an improvement over Baylor. West still lost on a stacked team.

How can you held Bucks loss against West when he didn't play a single minute in 1971 playoffs?

It appears you are right with the Bucks. But losing to the Knicks—another team without a prolific scorer—still meant he lost to not just the greatest of all-time defense you attribute to the Celtics.

Losing to that Knicks team and losing merit isn’t putting two and two together. Yes they probably should have won but they were basically at the top defensive wise

Frazier/Reed/Debusschere are legit, was the best time period in Knicks history. 2x champs put some respect. 14x 1st team all NBA defensive team accolades between the three is a huge number.
Frazier one of the more underrated PG’s in NBA history.

[WarriorGM]

How can you held Bucks loss against West when he didn't play a single minute in 1971 playoffs?

It appears you are right with the Bucks. But losing to the Knicks—another team without a prolific scorer—still meant he lost to not just the greatest of all-time defense you attribute to the Celtics.

Knicks themselves were among the best defensive teams ever with -6.0 rDRtg and with Frazier/DeBusschere/Reed trio anchoring the defense.

Why do you focus on "profilic scorer" thing? Curry lost against 2013 Spurs and 2014 Clippers, neither team had a "profilic scorer" either. How could he lost to them...? Maybe because there are more things in basketball than comparing the best scorers from each teams.

At least West lost in his prime while averaging staggering numbers and leading excellent offenses, not like Curry in 2013 when he averaged 22.5 ppg on -1.9 rTS%...

Referring to prolific scoring because the title of the thread references scoring point guards.

Curry was playing with a bunch of rookies at the time and players who hadn't won anything. West was playing with at least one or two of the greatest players of his era as a teammate.

You're right there's more to basketball than just scoring a lot. That's why West doesn't measure up to Curry.

Don't know where you got your numbers. They seem off.

Losing to that Knicks team and losing merit isn’t putting two and two together. Yes they probably should have won but they were basically at the top defensive wise

Frazier/Reed/Debusschere are legit, was the best time period in Knicks history. 2x champs put some respect. 14x 1st team all NBA defensive team accolades between the three is a huge number.
Frazier one of the more underrated PG’s in NBA history.

The Knicks were a championship team. I'm sure they're legit. But West was on a superteam, possibly one of the earliest formed due to a player exercising his leverage with his stated intention not to sign a renewal.

[JediMasterRevan]

Interesting debate.

Is he the best point guard scorer in the day of offense driven play in the NBA, absolutely yes.

Would other, previous guards far better in todays game?
Probably
Nash would be deadly in 2021
Iverson
Oscar Robertson
Mark Price, IMO, would be deadly in todays NBA
Tiny Archiubald
The Logo
Magic.

era's play a big part in all of the debates.

Steph is the best shooter, arguably, the league has ever seen and is a prolific scorer who uses analytics to drive his ability to maximize scoring efficiency in this current era/

[DCasey91]

It appears you are right with the Bucks. But losing to the Knicks—another team without a prolific scorer—still meant he lost to not just the greatest of all-time defense you attribute to the Celtics.

Knicks themselves were among the best defensive teams ever with -6.0 rDRtg and with Frazier/DeBusschere/Reed trio anchoring the defense.

Why do you focus on "profilic scorer" thing? Curry lost against 2013 Spurs and 2014 Clippers, neither team had a "profilic scorer" either. How could he lost to them...? Maybe because there are more things in basketball than comparing the best scorers from each teams.

At least West lost in his prime while averaging staggering numbers and leading excellent offenses, not like Curry in 2013 when he averaged 22.5 ppg on -1.9 rTS%...

Referring to prolific scoring because the title of the thread references scoring point guards.

Curry was playing with a bunch of rookies at the time and players who hadn't won anything. West was playing with at least one or two of the greatest players of his era as a teammate.

You're right there's more to basketball than just scoring a lot. That's why West doesn't measure up to Curry.

Don't know where you got your numbers. They seem off.

This thread is based on scoring for guards. Hence why it says Curry has no peers is very disingenuous.

You can argue whose the better player that’s fine.
But as scorers there in the same class.
Only Jordan is really superior to everybody else.

65’ West did fine as the lone hand. He was a monster scorer his whole career for a guard and a very efficient one for his time. Kind of like Curry is today.

[WarriorGM]

Knicks themselves were among the best defensive teams ever with -6.0 rDRtg and with Frazier/DeBusschere/Reed trio anchoring the defense.

Why do you focus on "profilic scorer" thing? Curry lost against 2013 Spurs and 2014 Clippers, neither team had a "profilic scorer" either. How could he lost to them...? Maybe because there are more things in basketball than comparing the best scorers from each teams.

At least West lost in his prime while averaging staggering numbers and leading excellent offenses, not like Curry in 2013 when he averaged 22.5 ppg on -1.9 rTS%...

Referring to prolific scoring because the title of the thread references scoring point guards.

Curry was playing with a bunch of rookies at the time and players who hadn't won anything. West was playing with at least one or two of the greatest players of his era as a teammate.

You're right there's more to basketball than just scoring a lot. That's why West doesn't measure up to Curry.

Don't know where you got your numbers. They seem off.

This thread is based on scoring for guards. Hence why it says Curry has no peers is very disingenuous.

You can argue whose the better player that’s fine.
But as scorers there in the same class.
Only Jordan is really superior to everybody else.

65’ West did fine as the lone hand. He was a monster scorer his whole career for a guard and a very efficient one for his time. Kind of like Curry is today.

West is not in the same league in terms of efficiency although the three point line not being in existence in his time probably makes fair comparison impossible.

If scoring from a guard is all we're looking at then I wonder why Iverson hasn't been brought up yet. But that wasn't the impression that I got about this discussion. I'm approaching this discussion in term of examining a scoring point guard and his whole repertoire of skills.

[DCasey91]

Referring to prolific scoring because the title of the thread references scoring point guards.

Curry was playing with a bunch of rookies at the time and players who hadn't won anything. West was playing with at least one or two of the greatest players of his era as a teammate.

You're right there's more to basketball than just scoring a lot. That's why West doesn't measure up to Curry.

Don't know where you got your numbers. They seem off.

This thread is based on scoring for guards. Hence why it says Curry has no peers is very disingenuous.

You can argue whose the better player that’s fine.
But as scorers there in the same class.
Only Jordan is really superior to everybody else.

65’ West did fine as the lone hand. He was a monster scorer his whole career for a guard and a very efficient one for his time. Kind of like Curry is today.

West is not in the same league in terms of efficiency although the three point line not being in existence in his time probably makes fair comparison impossible.

If scoring from a guard is all we're looking at then I wonder why Iverson hasn't been brought up yet. But that wasn't the impression that I got about this discussion.

Not in the same league is kinda weird, West was very efficient on big volume for his era. Heck he’d be efficient even today (hit > 57ts% as a jump shooter in a number of seasons in the 60’s even hit a 59ts% with no emphasis on analytics/3 point lines or refined offensive systems, oh and you can travel/carry the ball nowadays too.)

It’s hard to cross compare I get it but West/Curry are in the same class as scoring goes for their era.

Jordan’s the only one that’s head and shoulders above as a guard imo.

Iverson has the inefficient/volume thing with him.

[JN61]

What failures? Losing to a stacked lebron team?

The only reason the talent is close is IF Curry is a top ten all time talent. Prime lebron, kyrie and love is an incredible cast.

Sure, he’s not Mj or lebron but I’m not arguing he’s the goat. Just head and shoulders above harden, lillard etc and banging on the top ten.

2016 Warriors was one of the most stacked teams in the history of this league.. That was all time choke job.

I guess next we're going to hear the 2015 Warriors were even more stacked. I mean the roster didn't change that much except that the Warriors lost former all-star David Lee and gained Anderson Varajao.

2016? Might as well call it an all-time rig job.

No, 2015 wasn't as stacked and was a younger versio of the team. They won because Cavaliers were injured. Cavaliers had no way on paper to win either of those finals considering circumstances so Warriors choked in 2016.

[WarriorGM]

It’s hard to cross compare I get it but West/Curry are in the same class as scoring goes for their era.

Jordan’s the only one that’s head and shoulders above as a guard imo.

Iverson has the inefficient/volume thing with him.

Curry has an array of weapons at his disposal that are unique and still poorly understood due to their uniqueness. His shooting and its resulting gravity combined with his handle, mobility and court coverage along with his willingness not to dominate the ball raise him above the other great guards in NBA history. Only Jordan is a possible exception.

There were some graphs I've seen here and on the internet in previous years plotting player seasons according to efficiency and points scored. Curry had multiple seasons in the upper right quadrant by himself. Jordan's seasons were the only ones that could match or exceed them for volume but not efficiency.

Not the one I had in mind but something like the following. Harden seems to have joined Jordan in the years since I last checked.

[DCasey91]

It’s hard to cross compare I get it but West/Curry are in the same class as scoring goes for their era.

Jordan’s the only one that’s head and shoulders above as a guard imo.

Iverson has the inefficient/volume thing with him.

Curry has an array of weapons at his disposal that are unique and still poorly understood due to their uniqueness. His shooting and its resulting gravity combined with his handle, mobility and court coverage along with his willingness not to dominate the ball raise him above the other great guards in NBA history. Only Jordan is a possible exception.

There were some charts I've seen here and on the internet in previous years plotting player seasons according to efficiency and points scored. Curry had multiple seasons in the upper right quadrant by himself. Jordan's seasons were the only ones that could match or exceed them for volume but not efficiency.

Possible? Curry isn’t really close to Jordan as a scorer pretty much at any point in time.

Hence why people here overrate Efficiency vs Volume. Jordan had astounding volume and astounding efficiency at the peak of his powers (clear as day he’s in his own tier as a scorer at volume).

RS: 31.5 ppg in the Bulls days at over 50% FG 58ts%
Playoffs: 33.4 ppg 48.7 %FG nearly 57ts% (peak he was around 60ts% overall on some dumb scoring averages 36, 34, 31, 34 etc. lol).

I mean as scoring goes it’s Jordan then whoever is second.

[WarriorGM]

Possible? Curry isn’t really close to Jordan as a scorer pretty much at any point in time.

Hence why people here overrate Efficiency vs Volume. Jordan had astounding volume and astounding efficiency at the peak of his powers (clear as day he’s in his own tier as a scorer at volume).

RS: 31.5 ppg in the Bulls days at over 50% FG 58ts%
Playoffs: 33.4 ppg 48.7 %FG nearly 57ts% (peak he was around 60ts% overall on some dumb scoring averages 36, 34, 31, 34 etc. lol).

I mean as scoring goes it’s Jordan then whoever is second.

From the scoring we have actually seen yes Jordan is undoubtedly first. But as crazy as it may seem to some of you theoretically the numbers say Curry is capable of matching Jordan in terms of scoring. As we've seen from just this still incomplete shortened season Curry already has three 50+ point games. He's scored 62 points in a game which is higher than LeBron's highest scoring game. He's currently on a 9 game streak of 30+ point games. He just scored 42 the other day and sat out the fourth quarter. Even if he isn't Jordan, Curry is easily one of the greatest scorers of all-time.

I'm convinced the media drones on about Curry as the "Greatest Shooter of All-Time" not to compliment him but on the contrary to obscure the fact he is one of the greatest scorers ever. The proper comparison for Curry isn't Ray Allen or Reggie Miller. It is Michael Jordan.

[70sFan]

Referring to prolific scoring because the title of the thread references scoring point guards.

What does it have to do with teams they lost against? Playing against another scorer doesn't make scoring harder. West played and lost against ATG defenders in KC Jones and Walt Frazier backed up by ATG rim protectors in Russell and Reed.

Curry was playing with a bunch of rookies at the time and players who hadn't won anything. West was playing with at least one or two of the greatest players of his era as a teammate

West played without Baylor and Wilt in 1965, yet his scoring didn't drop off at all.

You're right there's more to basketball than just scoring a lot. That's why West doesn't measure up to Curry.

West is galaxies ahead of Curry defensively and he's better postseason scorer...

Don't know where you got your numbers. They seem off.

Prove it wrong them, it shouldn't be hard if they're off.

[DCasey91]

Possible? Curry isn’t really close to Jordan as a scorer pretty much at any point in time.

Hence why people here overrate Efficiency vs Volume. Jordan had astounding volume and astounding efficiency at the peak of his powers (clear as day he’s in his own tier as a scorer at volume).

RS: 31.5 ppg in the Bulls days at over 50% FG 58ts%
Playoffs: 33.4 ppg 48.7 %FG nearly 57ts% (peak he was around 60ts% overall on some dumb scoring averages 36, 34, 31, 34 etc. lol).

I mean as scoring goes it’s Jordan then whoever is second.

From the scoring we have actually seen yes Jordan is undoubtedly first. But as crazy as it may seem to some of you theoretically the numbers say Curry is capable of matching Jordan in terms of scoring. As we've seen from just this still incomplete shortened season Curry already has three 50+ point games. He's scored 62 points in a game which is higher than LeBron's highest scoring game. He's currently on a 9 game streak of 30+ point games. He just scored 42 the other day and sat out the fourth quarter. Even if he isn't Jordan, Curry is easily one of the greatest scorers of all-time.

I'm convinced the media drones on about Curry as the "Greatest Shooter of All-Time" not to compliment him but on the contrary to obscure the fact he is one of the greatest scorers ever. The proper comparison for Curry isn't Ray Allen or Reggie Miller. It is Michael Jordan.

No that’s as you said it’s theory. I mean Lebron/Durant are better scorers but as a guard he’s as high as you can get, Jordan though is in his own tier.

[DB23]

2016 Warriors was one of the most stacked teams in the history of this league.. That was all time choke job.

I guess next we're going to hear the 2015 Warriors were even more stacked. I mean the roster didn't change that much except that the Warriors lost former all-star David Lee and gained Anderson Varajao.

2016? Might as well call it an all-time rig job.

No, 2015 wasn't as stacked and was a younger versio of the team. They won because Cavaliers were injured. Cavaliers had no way on paper to win either of those finals considering circumstances so Warriors choked in 2016.

This is just nonsense. A top 3 player of all time with an elite supporting cast had no chance on paper against the dubs... nobody was saying that at the time. Especially after 15’ went 6 and the okc series.

[WarriorGM]

Referring to prolific scoring because the title of the thread references scoring point guards.

What does it have to do with teams they lost against? Playing against another scorer doesn't make scoring harder. West played and lost against ATG defenders in KC Jones and Walt Frazier backed up by ATG rim protectors in Russell and Reed.

At this level every critical match-up we will be talking about will be involving Hall of Famers against Hall of Famers. That's almost a given. But the results still indicate something and are support for an argument.

Curry was playing with a bunch of rookies at the time and players who hadn't won anything. West was playing with at least one or two of the greatest players of his era as a teammate

West played without Baylor and Wilt in 1965, yet his scoring didn't drop off at all.

West was 26. Steph was 24 and still improving. Both West and Steph reached the second round of the playoffs that year where they lost.

You're right there's more to basketball than just scoring a lot. That's why West doesn't measure up to Curry.

West is galaxies ahead of Curry defensively and he's better postseason scorer...

Curry is galaxies ahead of West as a playmaker and it's possible he's already won more in the postseason despite playing less seasons and his career not yet being over and West's 9 finals appearances.

Don't know where you got your numbers. They seem off.

Prove it wrong them, it shouldn't be hard if they're off.

Why don't you provide a source? They don't match the numbers I've seen. The discrepancy with the PPG is negligible so I won't quibble more with it further but the rTS% doesn't compute on my end.

[Pelly24]

Possible? Curry isn’t really close to Jordan as a scorer pretty much at any point in time.

Hence why people here overrate Efficiency vs Volume. Jordan had astounding volume and astounding efficiency at the peak of his powers (clear as day he’s in his own tier as a scorer at volume).

RS: 31.5 ppg in the Bulls days at over 50% FG 58ts%
Playoffs: 33.4 ppg 48.7 %FG nearly 57ts% (peak he was around 60ts% overall on some dumb scoring averages 36, 34, 31, 34 etc. lol).

I mean as scoring goes it’s Jordan then whoever is second.

From the scoring we have actually seen yes Jordan is undoubtedly first. But as crazy as it may seem to some of you theoretically the numbers say Curry is capable of matching Jordan in terms of scoring. As we've seen from just this still incomplete shortened season Curry already has three 50+ point games. He's scored 62 points in a game which is higher than LeBron's highest scoring game. He's currently on a 9 game streak of 30+ point games. He just scored 42 the other day and sat out the fourth quarter. Even if he isn't Jordan, Curry is easily one of the greatest scorers of all-time.

I'm convinced the media drones on about Curry as the "Greatest Shooter of All-Time" not to compliment him but on the contrary to obscure the fact he is one of the greatest scorers ever. The proper comparison for Curry isn't Ray Allen or Reggie Miller. It is Michael Jordan.

I think on-ball MJ had the ability to literally say, "hey, I need to score 40-50 points for us to win" and then he could just do it at will basically every other game. MJ was an extreme, extreme outlier. I don't think Curry has the physical attributes for that, but for someone 6'3" and under he's the GOAT scorer, easily.

[WarriorGM]

Possible? Curry isn’t really close to Jordan as a scorer pretty much at any point in time.

Hence why people here overrate Efficiency vs Volume. Jordan had astounding volume and astounding efficiency at the peak of his powers (clear as day he’s in his own tier as a scorer at volume).

RS: 31.5 ppg in the Bulls days at over 50% FG 58ts%
Playoffs: 33.4 ppg 48.7 %FG nearly 57ts% (peak he was around 60ts% overall on some dumb scoring averages 36, 34, 31, 34 etc. lol).

I mean as scoring goes it’s Jordan then whoever is second.

From the scoring we have actually seen yes Jordan is undoubtedly first. But as crazy as it may seem to some of you theoretically the numbers say Curry is capable of matching Jordan in terms of scoring. As we've seen from just this still incomplete shortened season Curry already has three 50+ point games. He's scored 62 points in a game which is higher than LeBron's highest scoring game. He's currently on a 9 game streak of 30+ point games. He just scored 42 the other day and sat out the fourth quarter. Even if he isn't Jordan, Curry is easily one of the greatest scorers of all-time.

I'm convinced the media drones on about Curry as the "Greatest Shooter of All-Time" not to compliment him but on the contrary to obscure the fact he is one of the greatest scorers ever. The proper comparison for Curry isn't Ray Allen or Reggie Miller. It is Michael Jordan.

No that’s as you said it’s theory. I mean Lebron/Durant are better scorers but as a guard he’s as high as you can get, Jordan though is in his own tier.

People keep saying Durant is a better scorer but one can easily argue the opposite. These numbers do as does the result of the 2016 WCF.

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[dhsilv2]

I don't think there's a big drop off between Steph and Dame at this point.

Oh lord...

Dame with a bad roster is close enough that you MIGHT have a case. But when they're on teams with quality players, curry is 2 or 3 tiers better. This is a guy who just being on the floor leads to dunks by KD in nba finals. He's able to create layups for teammates on game winning plays. It's so hard to just explain how good he is moving off ball combined with just HOW much defenses focus on him vs even someone is god level a scorer as dame. In a game where a bad flinch can lead to an open vs contested shot, Curry and harden are the two greatest ever at exploiting that.

[dhsilv2]

Can we just call him the shooting guard he is, even if it means he isnt top 3 all time at his position?

And i still have him leading Dame and Kyrie who, just like him, are more shooting guard than point. Id still rather have those two in the final 2 mins of a playoff game thought.

Just because they are excellent scorers doesn't make the 3 shooting guards. They're all point guards as they are the primary ball handlers and they facilitate the offense.

Back to the original topic - I don't think there's any doubt that Steph is the best scoring PG ever.

If Kyrie ever got serious about basketball he might have an argument.

Dame is more clutch than either of the two.

Well no, Dray facilitates the warrior's offense...

[drchaos]

I do agree that Steph is arguably the most dominant offensive player in NBA history.

Pure shooter - best ever
Off-ball shooter - best over
Moving without the ball - best ever
Shooting off screens - best ever
Release - arguably quickest ever
Making difficult shots - one of the best ever
Handles - one of the best ever
Floater - one of the best ever
IQ/Vision - one of the best ever

The only category he's not elite is as a post-up player, but he's so dominant as a shooter it doesn't matter.

Curry has an insane motor, he's incredible with and without the ball, he puts an enormous pressure on an opposing defense at all times.

Facts are facts. In 2015 and 2016 Curry was a cheat code that almost single handedly reduced the impact of the traditional slow big man. If you were a team that tried to guard him with a slow big he would torch your team and the game was over by the 3rd quarter.

Magic Johnson is waiting for his apology.

[dhsilv2]

Even I didn't think he could reach heights like this. He's averaging 31/6/6 on 66 TS% even though he's got the worst spacing in the league and a very mediocre/terrible offense without him. That efficiency is ridiculous no matter what team you're on. But him putting up those numbers on this team destroys any narratives about him being a system player. Sometimes I feel like he isn't dynamic enough and he relies on his three-point shooting too much. That might even be true. But when you're that impossibly good at shooting and your release is that quick it doesn't matter.

Anyways, that's my TED Talk.

From a scoring standpoint he is and has for the most part bettered Harden most of his career. No one compares to pure scoring from the guard spot. Not a hot take; just a fact backed up with counting stats and a career TS% of .626.

To me Harden is a Shooting Guard. Also, I think Harden's edge in the ability to reliably generate great offense for himself no matter what makes him a slightly better scorer.

I don't see how harden is a shooting guard if Curry is a point. Harden is a completely non off ball player and the shooting guard role is mostly about off ball, not on ball.