WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1

[SAKURABA216]

no, i don't want to be right about Wiseman, because if I am right then we pretty much wasted a 2nd overall pick, I would much rather be wrong about this and you guys right about him being the next Anthony Davis or whoever, obviously.

and I am much more concerned with the thought process that led us to Wiseman than Wiseman himself...in a vacuum Wise will be a fine player...I dunno, somewhere in the Ayton/Drummond tier or range I guess for me like I've always said...but the biggest problem are the decisions and thought processes I see that has led to us to a roster full completely anti-Warriors type of players, including Wiseman...and that's the biggest take away from here.

If you take yourself back to the time period right before the draft, it would make more sense why the Warriors thought Wiseman was the right pick. The Lakers had just won the championship with their huge lineup and had beaten the Heat who also had a stud center in Bam Adebayo. In the WCF, the Nuggets were only able to make it here because they had one of the best centers in the league in Jokic and were able to eliminate the Clippers because their best big was undersized and couldn't buy a bucket in the post or protect the paint. Even in the 1st round there were teams that had big centers that still weren't able to make it to the next round like the Jazz (Gobert), Mavs (Porzingis), and OKC (Adams). Add to that, teams in the west like the Suns (Ayton) and the Blazers (Kanter/Nurkic) also had decent centers so it was looking like you needed a decent big man to stand a chance.

Now moving to the NBA draft, the Warriors had the 2nd pick and wanted Anthony Edwards, but he was off the table. It then appears that they struggled to pick between LaMelo and Wiseman, but 1) were unsure if Steph could play with another point guard after the D'Lo experiment and 2) Wiseman appeared to fill a need for the team that had just witnessed bigs dominating the West and had struggled themselves against Toronto's front court depth the year before. All things considered, it was completely reasonable and understandable for the team to draft Wiseman. Had he played an entire college season then they would have had more tape on him and he might have played his way out of the top 3, but he looked very promising in the small sample of games he did play.

[clyde21]

no, it still didn't make sense before the draft. none of this is hindsight. i was here before the draft talking about the bad fit here in real time. you don't need to be Jim Naismith to understand that a single-level, high-usage C who doesn't know how to set screens/picks is not a great fit for this motion scheme and offense.

if you just wanted an athletic C that can roll, catch lobs and create some vert spacing we did that by signing McGee one year, you can find those guys, but the archetype at C for us all these years we've been winning rings has never been a 5 like Wiseman. again, none of this hindsight.

[and1GS]

Counter-argument might be that Kerr should start evolving his offense (as he was doing before Wiseman went down) instead of teaching college-level calculus to a group of remedial math students.

It's not Iguodala, Shaun, Bogut and David West anymore. It's Bazemore, Oubre, Paschall, JTA and Poole.

[whatisacenter]

no, it still didn't make sense before the draft. none of this is hindsight. i was here before the draft talking about the bad fit here in real time. you don't need to be Jim Naismith to understand that a single-level, high-usage C who doesn't know how to set screens/picks is not a great fit for this motion scheme and offense.

if you just wanted an athletic C that can roll, catch lobs and create some vert spacing we did that by signing McGee one year, you can find those guys, but the archetype at C for us all these years we've been winning rings has never been a 5 like Wiseman. again, none of this hindsight.

I’m just glad you had him pigeon holed before his 20th birthday and that he has already reached his potential. Now we can all move on that our resident expert has spoken.

[ahmetmekin]

Counter-argument might be that Kerr should start evolving his offense (as he was doing before Wiseman went down) instead of teaching college-level calculus to a group of remedial math students.

It's not Iguodala, Shaun, Bogut and David West anymore. It's Bazemore, Oubre, Paschall, JTA and Poole.

Bazemore, JTA and Poole have been pretty good compared to their salaries in this system.
Oubre and Wiseman have played terrible even if you do take not salaries into consideration. It is impossible to argue otherwise unless you avoid on/off stats, +/- stats, 2 man lineup stats of Oubre&Curry, Wiseman&Curry (101.6 offensive rating in 533 minutes, wtf.). All the other two man lineups (>10 min. total) including Curry have been positive (net rtg ranges from 1.4 to 33) and most of them (it does not matter who you pick) are very good or elite offenses. So Wiseman and Oubre do not have any clue how to play in the system centered around Curry and to a lesser extent Dray. These guys have no feel for the game, have low bbiq, have tunnel vision and Wiseman in particular is a very high usage center. There is no basketball reason to believe that a less Curry-centric system with these two sorry ass players would produce a better net rating. It would help these guys look better and this would be a good idea to increase their trade values but if you have Curry you play Curry ball even with Durant because Curry is 28 tier above these two guys and most probably at least 5 tiers above their possible peaks. You do not change your offensive system for scrubs.

[clyde21]

no, it still didn't make sense before the draft. none of this is hindsight. i was here before the draft talking about the bad fit here in real time. you don't need to be Jim Naismith to understand that a single-level, high-usage C who doesn't know how to set screens/picks is not a great fit for this motion scheme and offense.

if you just wanted an athletic C that can roll, catch lobs and create some vert spacing we did that by signing McGee one year, you can find those guys, but the archetype at C for us all these years we've been winning rings has never been a 5 like Wiseman. again, none of this hindsight.

I’m just glad you had him pigeon holed before his 20th birthday and that he has already reached his potential. Now we can all move on that our resident expert has spoken.

i do not have him pidgeon holed anywhere, I am giving my opinion/eval of him as a prospect for the Warriors, just like how you guys "pigeon holed" into being the next Anthony Davis. in fact I think I'm being much more realistic than you guys on this but go ahead.

[vagelis]

If I remember well Rose repaired his meniscus, sat out 1 year and then he tore it again and finally removed it. So, he sat out 1 year without a reason, he could just remove it from first time and miss only 5 weeks.
I don't know if meniscus can be succesfully repaired. Are there any examples?

Wiseman had a torn meniscus.

Rose had a torn ACL, and also, if I'm not mistaken, a torn MCL too.

Way different injuries.

Rose's injury is similar to Shaun Livingston's injury, back when he was with the Clippers.

Lots of players had a torn meniscus over the years: Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Blake
In 2015Griffin, Zion, dozens others.

EDIT: sorry for the messed-up quote, I did something wrong in the formatting.

Rose had an ACL surgery in 2012 and sat out 1 year.
Then when he came back in 2013, he had a meniscus injury and they decided to repair it and he sat out 1 more year for the meniscus.
In 2015 he tore the repaired meniscus again and removed it and missed 6 weeks only.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Rose

In the first round of the 2012 NBA Playoffs against the Philadelphia 76ers, Rose tore his ACL in his left knee. Rose required surgery and was subsequently sidelined for the entire 2012–13 season.[3] Rose returned to play in 2013–14, but during a regular season game against the Portland Trail Blazers on November 22, 2013, Rose injured his right meniscus which caused him to miss the remainder of the season.[4] Rose returned once again the following season, but knee injuries continued to riddle him, causing him to miss 30 games.

The following refers to the second injury of the repaired meniscus in 2015
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/12392571/derrick-rose-chicago-bulls-torn-meniscus-repaired

On Tuesday evening, the Bulls surprisingly announced that Rose tore the medial meniscus in his right knee for the second time in 15 months and would undergo surgery. But unlike his previous surgery, which knocked him out for the 2013-14 season, the Bulls believed this was a more minor injury.
"the torn part or the damaged part of the meniscus was removed," Forman said.
In Rose's previous surgery, Cole repaired the meniscus, which comes with a longer rehab schedule.

[michaelm]

If I remember well Rose repaired his meniscus, sat out 1 year and then he tore it again and finally removed it. So, he sat out 1 year without a reason, he could just remove it from first time and miss only 5 weeks.
I don't know if meniscus can be succesfully repaired. Are there any examples?

Wiseman had a torn meniscus.

Rose had a torn ACL, and also, if I'm not mistaken, a torn MCL too.

Way different injuries.

Rose's injury is similar to Shaun Livingston's injury, back when he was with the Clippers.

Lots of players had a torn meniscus over the years: Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Blake Griffin, Zion, dozens others.

EDIT: sorry for the messed-up quote, I did something wrong in the formatting.

Thanks, yes Vagelis said that not me, Partt of the problem with ACL injuries is that if the trauma is severe enough to cause an ACL injury there are often associated injuries including cartilage injuries though.

[Old_Blue]

I'm beginning to think that LaVar Ball is occupying space in Kerr's head. Not only did we not draft LaMelo, but we also didn't acquire Lonzo at the trade deadline. What exactly is Kerr afraid of...Losing his job to Lavar?

[Twinkie defense]

Steph Curry Gave Wiseman Important Message After Knee Injury

"I hit him earlier today to let him know, he has to think big picture in terms of, he's 20 years old, he's got a lot of basketball ahead of him, and he has an opportunity now to flip a terrible situation on its head and really work on his body, work on his mind in terms of what it's like at this level and take in as much as he can watching us play, and then come back stronger and healthy whenever that time is. That's the perspective you got to have. Easier said than done when injuries take you out and you want to play. Hopefully, he understands that and he's going to be patient with it."

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/steph-curry-gave-james-wiseman-important-message-after-knee-injury

I remember Steph Curry had a bad ankle injury at age 23 and probably it was the very same haters on this board were saying the Warriors were stupid to sign him long term.

[Twinkie defense]

no, i don't want to be right about Wiseman, because if I am right then we pretty much wasted a 2nd overall pick, I would much rather be wrong about this and you guys right about him being the next Anthony Davis or whoever, obviously.

and I am much more concerned with the thought process that led us to Wiseman than Wiseman himself...in a vacuum Wise will be a fine player...I dunno, somewhere in the Ayton/Drummond tier or range I guess for me like I've always said...but the biggest problem are the decisions and thought processes I see that has led to us to a roster full completely anti-Warriors type of players, including Wiseman...and that's the biggest take away from here.

Stylistically Wiseman seems to be the opposite player of Drummond. Total opposite.

[Twinkie defense]

If you take yourself back to the time period right before the draft, it would make more sense why the Warriors thought Wiseman was the right pick. The Lakers had just won the championship with their huge lineup and had beaten the Heat who also had a stud center in Bam Adebayo. In the WCF, the Nuggets were only able to make it here because they had one of the best centers in the league in Jokic and were able to eliminate the Clippers because their best big was undersized and couldn't buy a bucket in the post or protect the paint. Even in the 1st round there were teams that had big centers that still weren't able to make it to the next round like the Jazz (Gobert), Mavs (Porzingis), and OKC (Adams). Add to that, teams in the west like the Suns (Ayton) and the Blazers (Kanter/Nurkic) also had decent centers so it was looking like you needed a decent big man to stand a chance.

Now moving to the NBA draft, the Warriors had the 2nd pick and wanted Anthony Edwards, but he was off the table. It then appears that they struggled to pick between LaMelo and Wiseman, but 1) were unsure if Steph could play with another point guard after the D'Lo experiment and 2) Wiseman appeared to fill a need for the team that had just witnessed bigs dominating the West and had struggled themselves against Toronto's front court depth the year before. All things considered, it was completely reasonable and understandable for the team to draft Wiseman. Had he played an entire college season then they would have had more tape on him and he might have played his way out of the top 3, but he looked very promising in the small sample of games he did play.

Can't draft for position. Especially that high in the lottery. Have to take the best player.

It was hard to judge who was the best player last summer because of Covid limiting games and workouts. There was a general consensus that 1) there was no superstar in the 2020 draft, and 2) there were three players (LaMelo, Wiseman and Edwards) who were at the top of the class. Warriors took Wiseman because they thought he was the best player available. And they may still be right!

[Twinkie defense]

Counter-argument might be that Kerr should start evolving his offense (as he was doing before Wiseman went down) instead of teaching college-level calculus to a group of remedial math students.

It's not Iguodala, Shaun, Bogut and David West anymore. It's Bazemore, Oubre, Paschall, JTA and Poole.

That is a good analogy. Wiseman is a college sophomore getting his basketball Ph.D. It's possible he can't cut it. I would rather build toward a smart scheme rather than permanently dumbing it down because you drafted a dummy though - not saying Wiseman is a dummy (in fact he seems smart and hard-working, and just inexperienced), but rather he will need to get himself with the program over time, rather than tossing out the program.

[Twinkie defense]

I'm beginning to think that LaVar Ball is occupying space in Kerr's head. Not only did we not draft LaMelo, but we also didn't acquire Lonzo at the trade deadline. What exactly is Kerr afraid of...Losing his job to Lavar?

LaMelo is way better than Lonzo. Maybe in five years LaMelo will be a superstar and Wiseman will be a dud. But Wiseman was a reasonable choice for the Dubs - it's not like they passed up MJ to draft Greg Oden or Hasheem Thabeet.

[clyde21]

no, i don't want to be right about Wiseman, because if I am right then we pretty much wasted a 2nd overall pick, I would much rather be wrong about this and you guys right about him being the next Anthony Davis or whoever, obviously.

and I am much more concerned with the thought process that led us to Wiseman than Wiseman himself...in a vacuum Wise will be a fine player...I dunno, somewhere in the Ayton/Drummond tier or range I guess for me like I've always said...but the biggest problem are the decisions and thought processes I see that has led to us to a roster full completely anti-Warriors type of players, including Wiseman...and that's the biggest take away from here.

Stylistically Wiseman seems to be the opposite player of Drummond. Total opposite.

i said he's in the Drummond tier as a player, I didn't say he's similar to Drummond

[EvanZ]

I'm beginning to think that LaVar Ball is occupying space in Kerr's head. Not only did we not draft LaMelo, but we also didn't acquire Lonzo at the trade deadline. What exactly is Kerr afraid of...Losing his job to Lavar?

LaMelo is way better than Lonzo. Maybe in five years LaMelo will be a superstar and Wiseman will be a dud. But Wiseman was a reasonable choice for the Dubs - it's not like they passed up MJ to draft Greg Oden or Hasheem Thabeet.

More like Sam Bowie.

[Onus]

I think a few good things we saw from wiseman this year are that his size legit. He’s taller and longer than most which means he does have elite attributes. He also was a great finisher and not just with dunks. He had a variety of hooks and floaters that he was able to hit on the move.

[Old_Blue]

I think a few good things we saw from wiseman this year are that his size legit. He’s taller and longer than most which means he does have elite attributes. He also was a great finisher and not just with dunks. He had a variety of hooks and floaters that he was able to hit on the move.

Really? He's really big. After season one, that's the lead story regarding our #2 pick? Let's be honest here. Wiseman's first season was an unmitigated disaster. For everyone's sake, I hope the kid can get his stuff together for season two. I know he's young, but he's got to understand that things can go downhill very fast for a high draft pick who disappoints beyond his rookie season. By season three, he'll be auditioning for an extension and tens of millions of dollars will be on the line. It'll be interesting to see how Wiseman responds once he starts to feel some pressure.

[Onus]

I think a few good things we saw from wiseman this year are that his size legit. He’s taller and longer than most which means he does have elite attributes. He also was a great finisher and not just with dunks. He had a variety of hooks and floaters that he was able to hit on the move.

Really? He's really big. After season one, that's the lead story regarding our #2 pick? Let's be honest here. Wiseman's first season was an unmitigated disaster. For everyone's sake, I hope the kid can get his stuff together for season two. I know he's young, but he's got to understand that things can go downhill very fast for a high draft pick who disappoints beyond his rookie season. By season three, he'll be auditioning for an extension and tens of millions of dollars will be on the line. It'll be interesting to see how Wiseman responds once he starts to feel some pressure.

Yea the allure of him was because he’s 7’1” with a 7’6” wingspan who was a good athlete and he had some skills. And it’s good to see that he actually looks big out there.

Yea he doesn’t have a lot of positives to take away from his first season. But there were some. I remember he was able to stay with Trae step for step on the perimeter. That was pretty cool.

No one is going to argue he was a disappointment or that he most likely doesn’t fit Steph’s timeline.

[Mylie10]

Counter-argument might be that Kerr should start evolving his offense (as he was doing before Wiseman went down) instead of teaching college-level calculus to a group of remedial math students.

It's not Iguodala, Shaun, Bogut and David West anymore. It's Bazemore, Oubre, Paschall, JTA and Poole.

That is a good analogy. Wiseman is a college sophomore getting his basketball Ph.D. It's possible he can't cut it. I would rather build toward a smart scheme rather than permanently dumbing it down because you drafted a dummy though - not saying Wiseman is a dummy (in fact he seems smart and hard-working, and just inexperienced), but rather he will need to get himself with the program over time, rather than tossing out the program.

I think Andy is talking more about a combination. KD was right...you can’t just play motion the whole time, because in the Playoffs, the games slow down and the teams are better. You need to do both in today’s world