As a Scoring Point Guard, Steph Has No Serious Rival

[Ambrose]

The results say otherwise. 2006 Wade ended up with a championship. So did Curry in 2015. Wade played with Shaq a top ten all-time player. Curry played with a roster none of whom had seen a finals before. Wade took out the team with the best record in the league. Curry led the team with the best record. Wade beat the guy who finished third in MVP voting. Steph was the MVP and sent the guy who finished second packing. The preseason odds for the 2006 Heat winning was +350. The preseason championship odds for the 2015 Warriors was +2800.

Wade eliminated the 41-win Bulls, the 49-win Nets, the 64-win Pistons and the 60-win Mavericks.
Curry eliminated the 45-win Pelicans, the 55-win Grizzlies, the 56-win Rockets and the 53-win Cavaliers. But no one was surprised in the least when those Cavaliers swept the 60-win Hawks in the ECF and fielded basically the same players against the Warriors.

What did Wade do that was so superior? Struggle mightily while monopolizing the ball to eek out wins and look dramatic doing so? Why should Curry be penalized for playing in a way that maximizes the talents of his teammates? Are there still people here who think Westbrook is better than Curry?

Curry's 2015 run is one of the most underrated runs in recent NBA history.

Don't even get me started on a comparison of 2019 Curry's and 2018 LeBron's playoffs runs.

Isn't it obvious? He played better. No one is talking about how good each team was.

If the goal is to win as quickly and decisively as possible, no he didn't.

Okay, well objectively as opposed to theoretically, he did. There is a reason why you didn't compare their actual performances and brought up the team results.

[rzzzzz]

Worth considering what Jerry West would have done with the 3 ball.

[og15]

At this level every critical match-up we will be talking about will be involving Hall of Famers against Hall of Famers. That's almost a given. But the results still indicate something and are support for an argument

Playing against HoFers doesn't necessary make scoring harder. Scoring against Damian Lillard is much easier than against Marcus Smart and we know which one will make the HoF.

But Lillard will make you pay on the other end. I wasn't planning on bringing this up but since this came up earlier this does explain why the lack of a prolific scorer on the opposing team might disadvantage them.

West was 26. Steph was 24 and still improving. Both West and Steph reached the second round of the playoffs that year where they lost.

We're talking about their scoring, not when they finished. You implied that West played with superstars, but he didn't in 1965 and he scored as well as usual.

Besides, West went to the finals, it's not comparable to 2nd round exit in 2013.

As I said to DCasey91 given the title of this thread I'm taking a holistic view of a scoring point guard, so their scoring plus their other point guard attributes. Where they finish gives an indication about how effective their whole game is.

Regarding West not playing with superstars in 1965, as I understand it that's not entirely true. West didn't play with Baylor in the playoffs but he did during the regular season. By finishing first in their conference in the regular season West avoided the first round and got a bye. That's not an insignificant thing.

Furthermore I'd say the difference between West going to the finals (which was the second round he played) isn't more impressive compared to what Curry did. West and the Lakers in the first round they played defeated the Baltimore Bullets a team with a 37-43 losing record during the regular season. Curry and the Warriors for comparison knocked out the Denver Nuggets who had a 57-25 record, 4th best in the entire league. West in the next round, the finals, lost to the Celtics 4-1. Curry and the Warriors were eliminated in 6 by the Spurs who were the finalists that year losing in 7 and champions the next year.

Curry is galaxies ahead of West as a playmaker and it's possible he's already won more in the postseason despite playing less seasons and his career not yet being over and West's 9 finals appearances.

No, Curry isn't galaxies ahead of West as a playmaker. Basketball was much different back in the 1960s and one players didn't have the same possibility of creating shots without spacing and with stricter rules.

Era differences again? Whatever.

Why don't you provide a source? They don't match the numbers I've seen. The discrepancy with the PPG is negligible so I won't quibble more with it further but the rTS% doesn't compute on my end.

These are rORtg, what are you talking about rTS%?

My source is from backpicks, a stats database created by Ben Taylor which you use so much.

I don't believe you mentioned rORtg before. You mentioned rTS%. Doesn't matter. I still don't get the number you provide if it is intended to be rORtg. Curry's ORtg? Relative to what ORtg? I've only browsed backpicks in the past and referred to a couple of charts that seemed illustrative. I haven't gone into the details of the metrics used or their calculations.

The relevance of this will be impacted by how the coaching staff does the matchups. Warriors have generally been a team where they had the luxury of not needing to have Steph guard a strong perimeter player as the primary defender. So if the team is able to do that, then Marcus Smart is much more taxing matchup than Lillard if you are guarding Maurice Harkless (just using an old Blazer example) on defense and Klay is guarding Lillard.

[WarriorGM]

Isn't it obvious? He played better. No one is talking about how good each team was.

If the goal is to win as quickly and decisively as possible, no he didn't.

Okay, well objectively as opposed to theoretically, he did. There is a reason why you didn't compare their actual performances and brought up the team results.

Here's why this team argument that is always brought up to suggest Curry isn't the great player he is is so mind-numbingly daft. There are almost no teams in history that matched the Warriors even without KD at their height. They are an anomaly. If you are looking for the source of that anomaly you invariably arrive at Curry.

Box score numbers frequently cited are rough arbitrary measures that attempt to describe what went on in a game. If, however, you see a player come along like Curry keep winning winning and winning and the box score numbers cannot sufficiently explain it one must question the box score numbers' ability to do their job. Watch the Warriors enough and one will likely conclude many of the numbers credited to Draymond actually should have been credited to Curry. If one comes to that conclusion then the numbers are all off.

Many people still do not appreciate Curry's potency because he does not fit the conventional mold even after his unanimous MVP year. That's why we had that dumb "Stephen Curry has been totally exposed" thread here and the talk about "It's time to be legitimately concerned about Steph" earlier in the season. Maybe if they had put more weight on the fact that despite Harden putting up bigger numbers during a season, Steph was the one who kept on winning in their encounters they wouldn't have been misled and end up making themselves look like fools.

You say it's obvious Wade played better? I still see the plaintive bleating of Harden fans pointing out Harden scored 35 in Game 6 of their last playoffs meeting while Steph only scored 33. Doesn't matter it's Harden who went home.

Steph knocking out the rest of the First Team All-NBA, sending home the two closest MVPs to himself, coming back multiple times from double digit deficits in elimination games, disposing of the two greatest guards of the era aside from himself, with just Klay and Draymond at his side say far more to me about Steph than the mere numbers others seem so impressed with.

[Spens1]

i'll name one in the league now

Dame Lillard.

[Marrrcuss]

Can we just call him the shooting guard he is, even if it means he isnt top 3 all time at his position?

Well it's moot because there aren't 3 shooting guards in the history of the game capable of scoring 30 PPG on 66% TS. If you don't count Curry, such a player has never existed.

I'd put Jordan ahead of Curry based on what Curry's shown so far. No one else is a threat.

That said, I'd agree to some degree with your point in that the best way to describe Curry when playing with a healthy team is that of an off-guard, which is often as a synonym for shooting guard.

The thing that frustrates me about the insistence some people have about saying Steph isn't a true PG is that it often feels like a backhanded way to denigrate his playmaking ability. We have plenty of proof that Steph is a good playmaker. Pre-Kerr, he was averaging 8 assists a game in a far less creative offensive system with worse spacing than any lineups he played with up until this year. If you ask Steph to create for others, he absolutely can. It just so happens that he's the GOAT off-ball player and he's spent a significant amount of his career playing with Draymond, who is one of the better passing big men of his generation, so it would be dumb not to take advantage of those abilities.

Ahhh, do that's it!?!?

Yall don't like folks saying he's more of a 2 out of defense of his playmaking?? Man wow, I was wondering why lolol

He plays off the ball MOST of the game. Meanwhile EVERYONE says he's the greatest shooter ever but that's apparently not enough, lol. At least I get it now.

[turnaroundJ]

i'll name one in the league now

Dame Lillard.

It’s been covered a lot on this thread but he’s really not on Steph’s level. All it takes to sweep a Dame-led team is Steph + Dray. We only have to go back two years to see that.

[Mujahydeen]

i'll name one in the league now

Dame Lillard.

Curry scores more than Lillard on much higher efficiency (.66% vs .61% TS). He's also much better at generating offense for his teammates, due to his off-ball ability.

In 3 point shooting, league average (.367%) is closer to Lillard (.379%, .012% difference), than Lillard is to Curry (.422%, .043% difference).

[WarriorGM]

i'll name one in the league now

Dame Lillard.

You might as well say DeMar DeRozan is a serious rival to LeBron James.

[California Gold]

Something must be in the water in California - Some Laker fans used to argue that Kobe was better than Jordan as a scorer. Now we got folks of the other side of the state’s team saying Curry rivals Jordan in scoring.

You can’t make it up.

[Asianiac_24]

i'll name one in the league now

Dame Lillard.

You might as well say DeMar DeRozan is a serious rival to LeBron James.

Thats a bit of an overstatement but Curry is CLEARLY better than Dame. I'd say a better analogy would be like saying Iverson is a serious rival to Kobe Bryant, or like saying Kobe Bryant is a serious rival to Michael Jordan. Similar players and in popular culture is seen as almost equals in the eyes of the common fan, but one is clearly better than the other.

[WarriorGM]

i'll name one in the league now

Dame Lillard.

You might as well say DeMar DeRozan is a serious rival to LeBron James.

Thats a bit of an overstatement but Curry is CLEARLY better than Dame. I'd say a better analogy would be like saying Iverson is a serious rival to Kobe Bryant, or like saying Kobe Bryant is a serious rival to Michael Jordan. Similar players and in popular culture is seen as almost equals in the eyes of the common fan, but one is clearly better than the other.

Here's the thing, according to actual playoffs results it isn't an overstatement at all. Why so many of you automatically think it is shows a discrepancy in perception from the objective results and the conventional wisdom.

Curry dominated Dame as much as if not more than LeBron dominated DeRozan in their playoffs series.

[Asianiac_24]

Here's the thing, according to actual playoffs results it isn't an overstatement at all. Why so many of you automatically think it is shows a discrepancy in perception from the objective results and the conventional wisdom.

Curry dominated Dame as much as if not more than LeBron dominated DeRozan in their playoffs series.

H2H isn't the only thing that matters, and Curry has had the much better team overall in their respective careers when they matched up. Deron Williams used to consistently outplay Chris Paul H2H, but Chris Paul was clearly the better player overall.

[AdriLaker]

This dude has LITERALLY changed the **** style of NBA basketball...when you can achieve something like this...that's **** greatness. Only Dame can match Steph's abilities, but not at his level and that's enough for Steph to make a giant impact and destroy teams. I'm not a Warriors fan but i really love Steph's style and his unanimous MVP is really deserved...he is a **** genious.

[ccameron]

why would we call him something he's not? he's not a shooting guard. he's a PG that plays off ball half the time because he's also happens to be an elite off-ball player...if anything he's a combo guard, but he's not a SG

and he would actually be ranked as just as high on the SG list as he would on the PG list...so, yea.

Jordan, Kobe, Wade......ummmmmm, no

so...4th best SG all time?

and I'd take Steph over Wade but that's just me, and 3-4 more years like this one I'd take him ahead of Kobe, too.

I'm a big Wade homer but I think after this season the argument for Steph over Wade all-time is a lot stronger. Most people already did as of a year or two ago, although I think that was premature. I'd be the last to hold out but as of this year I have Steph a spot ahead. Wade's prime was insanely good and it debatable for peaks, but the shorter prime is just too much to overcome, and seems like the gap will get bigger if Steph keeps this up for more years.

Some people thought Curry couldn't carry a bad team, while others claimed that the only reason his teams were good in the first place was because of Curry, and without him those teams weren't special. I think they were both wrong -- He hasn't imploded at all, on the contrary he is playing some of the best basketball of his career, but on the other hand, it's clear Curry doesn't automatically make a team a great offense, even if he is balling out. Kobe and Wade had to do this with some pretty awful teams too, although I don't think this team is as bad as some of the teams Wade and Kobe had to carry. But overall it is a massive win for Curry to show he can sustain this kind of play without a great team around him.

[Sactowndog]

I don't think there's a big drop off between Steph and Dame at this point.

Dame's best season (and this is just RS) would ranked as Steph's 5th best in terms of TS%, and you can go on and on...Dame is a great player, but every time you guys try to make this argument ya'll lose...stop it

this nonsense should have stopped after the 19 WCF finals after Dame got 4-0'd by Steph.

I think what sets Steph apart is despite his scoring he isn’t a selfish player. The GS teams always shared the ball effectively and moved it to the open player. Steph excelled at using his gravity to open the game up for teammates.

It’s interesting that most other top scoring point guards don’t win championships.

[WarriorGM]

Here's the thing, according to actual playoffs results it isn't an overstatement at all. Why so many of you automatically think it is shows a discrepancy in perception from the objective results and the conventional wisdom.

Curry dominated Dame as much as if not more than LeBron dominated DeRozan in their playoffs series.

H2H isn't the only thing that matters, and Curry has had the much better team overall in their respective careers when they matched up. Deron Williams used to consistently outplay Chris Paul H2H, but Chris Paul was clearly the better player overall.

So? LeBron faced the Raptors with rosters that won championships and had players who were considered stars even before joining him.

In 2015, Lillard played with All-NBA 2nd Team LeMarcus Aldridge, Nets franchise scoring leader Robin Lopez, Wesley Matthews, and Nicolas Batum. They were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs that year by the Grizzlies 1-4. Next round the Grizzlies faced the Warriors led by Curry and first time All-NBA 3rd Team Klay Thompson. Warriors eliminate the Grizzlies 4-2.

Deron William's history with Chris Paul is irrelevant unless you are suggesting that Lillard is better than Curry in which case I ask: based on what?

Curry is a back-to-back and only unanimous MVP. That alone should make people hesitant to take comparisons further—but I digress. Even though Lillard's calling card is his three point shooting you're comparing him with the greatest shooter of all-time. Lillard's career 3P% is 37.3%; Curry's is 43.4%. Lillard this year is second in ORPM at 6.60; Curry is first at 10.69. The 4.09 ORPM gap between the two is the equivalent of the gap between Lillard and the player in 37th Ja Morant. Mind you ORPM makes Lillard look way better than RPM does. The 4.28 RPM gap between 2nd ranked Curry and 15th ranked Lillard is roughly the equivalent of the gap between Lillard and 164th ranked Naji Marshall.

Who knows maybe Lillard with his superior team this year can finally exact some revenge on Curry and his trash team. I put the odds at around the chance of coming back from 17 points down three times in a series.

[fanofthegreats]

why would we call him something he's not? he's not a shooting guard. he's a PG that plays off ball half the time because he's also happens to be an elite off-ball player...if anything he's a combo guard, but he's not a SG

and he would actually be ranked as just as high on the SG list as he would on the PG list...so, yea.

Jordan, Kobe, Wade......ummmmmm, no

so...4th best SG all time?

and I'd take Steph over Wade but that's just me, and 3-4 more years like this one I'd take him ahead of Kobe, too.

You could make an argument that Stephs peak/prime is better than Bryant’s.

[Optms]

i'll name one in the league now

Dame Lillard.

Blazers were swept 4-0 by Curry's Dubs in 2019. It was a massacre. Curry dropped 36 and 37 in the Finals 2 games for the sweep. He also dropped 62 on the Portland this year. Lillard is BBQ chicken to Curry not just in side-by-side comparison but in matchups.

[Asianiac_24]

Here's the thing, according to actual playoffs results it isn't an overstatement at all. Why so many of you automatically think it is shows a discrepancy in perception from the objective results and the conventional wisdom.

Curry dominated Dame as much as if not more than LeBron dominated DeRozan in their playoffs series.

H2H isn't the only thing that matters, and Curry has had the much better team overall in their respective careers when they matched up. Deron Williams used to consistently outplay Chris Paul H2H, but Chris Paul was clearly the better player overall.

So? LeBron faced the Raptors with rosters that won championships and had players who were considered stars even before joining him.

In 2015, Lillard played with All-NBA 2nd Team LeMarcus Aldridge, Nets franchise scoring leader Robin Lopez, Wesley Matthews, and Nicolas Batum. They were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs that year by the Grizzlies 1-4. Next round the Grizzlies faced the Warriors led by Curry and first time All-NBA 3rd Team Klay Thompson. Warriors eliminate the Grizzlies 4-2.

Deron William's history with Chris Paul is irrelevant unless you are suggesting that Lillard is better than Curry in which case I ask: based on what?

Curry is a back-to-back and only unanimous MVP. That alone should make people hesitant to take comparisons further—but I digress. Even though Lillard's calling card is his three point shooting you're comparing him with the greatest shooter of all-time. Lillard's career 3P% is 37.3%; Curry's is 43.4%. Lillard this year is second in ORPM at 6.60; Curry is first at 10.69. The 4.09 ORPM gap between the two is the equivalent of the gap between Lillard and the player in 37th Ja Morant. Mind you ORPM makes Lillard look way better than RPM does. The 4.28 RPM gap between 2nd ranked Curry and 15th ranked Lillard is roughly the equivalent of the gap between Lillard and 164th ranked Naji Marshall.

What I’m saying is the difference between Curry and Dame is not the difference between Derozan and LeBron. I am fully aware that Curry is better.