Brunson or Ball

[Richard4444]

Ball is really good in transition and bad in the half-court game. But our team has the worst pace of NBA (I dont know playing players 40 minutes has anything to do with that). I don't think Ball will change very much our pace (I suspect Randle is the biggest reason to our slower pace). Consequently, I wonder if Lonzo is the ideal fit for the team.

Also Ball is a bad driver. Thibs likes slasher PGs to create plays in half-court by attacking the rim like Rose and Butler. He even likes Payton who has the ability to get into the paint easily (although he uses to miss the bunny under the basket). I don't know if Lonzo fits Thibs style either.

[mpharris36]

As far as Ball and last night goes? To judge a guy based on one game (good or bad)?

Brandon Ingram looked like he was auditioning for the role originally made famous by Claude Rains (Google it) last night. Does that mean he's trash?

Eric Bledsoe looked terrific last night...shades of what got him the nickname "Mini Lebron". Should we now do whatever it takes to trade for him?

Kira Lewis looked like the Obi of point guards last night. Does that mean a good number of you guys were dead wrong about him being the second coming of De'Aaron Fox (admit it, that's what you guys imagined)?

its not just one game at least for me. He is a solid player...just not paying him +20 MM to do what he does.

He can't break anyone down off the dribble in the half court. He has no off the bounce game that a main ball handler needs (mid range or pull up 3's). He doesn't get to the basket at all which means he doesn't get to the FT or put enough pressure on the defense...he's a system PG not a engine PG.

His spot up shooting is streaky is a bit streaky if you break down the months. He had one month where he shot 45.9% from 3. But every other month he has been below league avg in terms of shooting.

December - 28.6%
January - 33.8%
February - 45.9% (by far his best month)
March - 35.5%
April - 29.8%

seems a bit all over the place to me...when you talking about throwing big time $$$ at someone you have to sure he is going to be really good. I just don't know yet. He will be solid but the minute he has the contract he has to be better then just good or then the contract will be tough to move down the road.

I get it he's an improvement over Payton (nearly any PG who is breathing is). But I don't want to just settle and overpay and be in a situation where he won't live up to his contract. RFA is a dicey market because you are basically admitting you have to overpay for his team not to match (looking at it from just an asset stand point) your basically paying him past the point where the pelicans (the league essentially) believes his contract isn't tradable. Why is that...well from the pelicans stand point even if you didn't want him why wouldn't you just match any contract and then offload him in a trade right after his moratorium lifts for his contract to be moved for assets? Its because you have to overpay past that point of Ball being a future tradable contract.

I personally would invest elsewhere.

[Chanel Bomber]

As far as Ball and last night goes? To judge a guy based on one game (good or bad)?

Brandon Ingram looked like he was auditioning for the role originally made famous by Claude Rains (Google it) last night. Does that mean he's trash?

Eric Bledsoe looked terrific last night...shades of what got him the nickname "Mini Lebron". Should we now do whatever it takes to trade for him?

Kira Lewis looked like the Obi of point guards last night. Does that mean a good number of you guys were dead wrong about him being the second coming of De'Aaron Fox (admit it, that's what you guys imagined)?

Ball isn't as bad as he showed yesterday but the fact that the Pelicans are playing Zion as a point forward and not running the pick-and-roll with Lonzo is a serious indictment of Lonzo as a "point guard". That decision by SVG didn't materialize out of the blue, it's based on months (years even) of evidence. He's just not a point guard who can direct a halfcourt offense. Same mistake Knicks fans (and the Knicks) made with Frank.

[Deeeez Knicks]

As far as Ball and last night goes? To judge a guy based on one game (good or bad)?

Brandon Ingram looked like he was auditioning for the role originally made famous by Claude Rains (Google it) last night. Does that mean he's trash?

Eric Bledsoe looked terrific last night...shades of what got him the nickname "Mini Lebron". Should we now do whatever it takes to trade for him?

Kira Lewis looked like the Obi of point guards last night. Does that mean a good number of you guys were dead wrong about him being the second coming of De'Aaron Fox (admit it, that's what you guys imagined)?

its not just one game at least for me. He is a solid player...just not paying him +20 MM to do what he does.

He can't break anyone down off the dribble in the half court. He has no off the bounce game that a main ball handler needs (mid range or pull up 3's). He doesn't get to the basket at all which means he doesn't get to the FT or put enough pressure on the defense...he's a system PG not a engine PG.

His spot up shooting is streaky is a bit streaky if you break down the months. He had one month where he shot 45.9% from 3. But every other month he has been below league avg in terms of shooting.

December - 28.6%
January - 33.8%
February - 45.9% (by far his best month)
March - 35.5%
April - 29.8%

seems a bit all over the place to me...when you talking about throwing big time $$$ at someone you have to sure he is going to be really good. I just don't know yet. He will be solid but the minute he has the contract he has to be better then just good or then the contract will be tough to move down the road.

I get it he's an improvement over Payton (nearly any PG who is breathing is). But I don't want to just settle and overpay and be in a situation where he won't live up to his contract. RFA is a dicey market because you are basically admitting you have to overpay for his team not to match (looking at it from just an asset stand point) your basically paying him past the point where the pelicans (the league essentially) believes his contract isn't tradable. Why is that...well from the pelicans stand point even if you didn't want him why wouldn't you just match any contract and then offload him in a trade right after his moratorium lifts for his contract to be moved for assets? Its because you have to overpay past that point of Ball being a future tradable contract.

I personally would invest elsewhere.

Who else would you invest in especially at PG? I know you mentioned Brunson, but he doesnt seem available at the moment. Seems like we have a limited window to go after free agents too.

Also, I don't see $20mil as too much these days. There's over 50 players making $20mil, with top players making $40+mil. So while it is a lot, its market value for a solid starter, especially a younger PG.

In terms of Ball's value, its not just his shooting. He is a really good passer, good defender, has nice size. We would be locking him for his prime years so there's a chance he can get better. He has been a little bit inconsistency, but could also be one of those normal things some young players go thru. There's some upside if he can get a little bit more consistent.

I know he's not gonna get to the rim much, but I am ok with that given our roster build and knowing we can still add another star scorer who will likely need the ball. So ideally, adding a good off the ball shooter would be good to do and can focus on looking for another star.

Pelican's may end up matching or maybe they would take some smaller assets in a sign and trade and rather have the big trade exception. It seems like money is a big issue for them though so they may not want to take back contracts in a trade. If they match, they match. I would take a chance though.

[mpharris36]

As far as Ball and last night goes? To judge a guy based on one game (good or bad)?

Brandon Ingram looked like he was auditioning for the role originally made famous by Claude Rains (Google it) last night. Does that mean he's trash?

Eric Bledsoe looked terrific last night...shades of what got him the nickname "Mini Lebron". Should we now do whatever it takes to trade for him?

Kira Lewis looked like the Obi of point guards last night. Does that mean a good number of you guys were dead wrong about him being the second coming of De'Aaron Fox (admit it, that's what you guys imagined)?

its not just one game at least for me. He is a solid player...just not paying him +20 MM to do what he does.

He can't break anyone down off the dribble in the half court. He has no off the bounce game that a main ball handler needs (mid range or pull up 3's). He doesn't get to the basket at all which means he doesn't get to the FT or put enough pressure on the defense...he's a system PG not a engine PG.

His spot up shooting is streaky is a bit streaky if you break down the months. He had one month where he shot 45.9% from 3. But every other month he has been below league avg in terms of shooting.

December - 28.6%
January - 33.8%
February - 45.9% (by far his best month)
March - 35.5%
April - 29.8%

seems a bit all over the place to me...when you talking about throwing big time $$$ at someone you have to sure he is going to be really good. I just don't know yet. He will be solid but the minute he has the contract he has to be better then just good or then the contract will be tough to move down the road.

I get it he's an improvement over Payton (nearly any PG who is breathing is). But I don't want to just settle and overpay and be in a situation where he won't live up to his contract. RFA is a dicey market because you are basically admitting you have to overpay for his team not to match (looking at it from just an asset stand point) your basically paying him past the point where the pelicans (the league essentially) believes his contract isn't tradable. Why is that...well from the pelicans stand point even if you didn't want him why wouldn't you just match any contract and then offload him in a trade right after his moratorium lifts for his contract to be moved for assets? Its because you have to overpay past that point of Ball being a future tradable contract.

I personally would invest elsewhere.

Who else would you invest in especially at PG? I know you mentioned Brunson, but he doesnt seem available at the moment. Seems like we have a limited window to go after free agents too.

Also, I don't see $20mil as too much these days. There's over 50 players making $20mil, with top players making $40+mil. So while it is a lot, its market value for a solid starter, especially a younger PG.

In terms of Ball's value, its not just his shooting. He is a really good passer, good defender, has nice size. We would be locking him for his prime years so there's a chance he can get better. He has been a little bit inconsistency, but could also be one of those normal things some young players go thru. There's some upside if he can get a little bit more consistent.

I know he's not gonna get to the rim much, but I am ok with that given our roster build and knowing we can still add another star scorer who will likely need the ball. So ideally, adding a good off the ball shooter would be good to do and can focus on looking for another star.

Pelican's may end up matching or maybe they would take some smaller assets in a sign and trade and rather have the big trade exception. It seems like money is a big issue for them though so they may not want to take back contracts in a trade. If they match, they match. I would take a chance though.

I know Ball strengths aren't just decent shooting. He is a very good transition player and good defender as well. Still I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on his value.

How valuable is his passing if in the half court when he can't create off the dribble. Outstanding fast break player...great vision leading the break. But the knicks don't even run...they are ranked dead last in pace and its just not personal. Every Thibs coached team has ranked in the bottom 3rd in the league in pace every year. Its his style. He is a half court grind it out style offense.

I don't see how that would play to Lonzo's strengths because he is pretty meh in the half court.

I see Lonzo in the 4 year 64-72 range..which basically means I would not offer him a RFA contract because the pelicans would match that and probably the bulls who are in no position to be patient will offer him over 20 MM.

There are better options both short term and long term in my opinion that wouldn't require locking up Lonzo in the 4 year 80-100 MM range.

[mpharris36]

As far as Ball and last night goes? To judge a guy based on one game (good or bad)?

Brandon Ingram looked like he was auditioning for the role originally made famous by Claude Rains (Google it) last night. Does that mean he's trash?

Eric Bledsoe looked terrific last night...shades of what got him the nickname "Mini Lebron". Should we now do whatever it takes to trade for him?

Kira Lewis looked like the Obi of point guards last night. Does that mean a good number of you guys were dead wrong about him being the second coming of De'Aaron Fox (admit it, that's what you guys imagined)?

its not just one game at least for me. He is a solid player...just not paying him +20 MM to do what he does.

He can't break anyone down off the dribble in the half court. He has no off the bounce game that a main ball handler needs (mid range or pull up 3's). He doesn't get to the basket at all which means he doesn't get to the FT or put enough pressure on the defense...he's a system PG not a engine PG.

His spot up shooting is streaky is a bit streaky if you break down the months. He had one month where he shot 45.9% from 3. But every other month he has been below league avg in terms of shooting.

December - 28.6%
January - 33.8%
February - 45.9% (by far his best month)
March - 35.5%
April - 29.8%

seems a bit all over the place to me...when you talking about throwing big time $$$ at someone you have to sure he is going to be really good. I just don't know yet. He will be solid but the minute he has the contract he has to be better then just good or then the contract will be tough to move down the road.

I get it he's an improvement over Payton (nearly any PG who is breathing is). But I don't want to just settle and overpay and be in a situation where he won't live up to his contract. RFA is a dicey market because you are basically admitting you have to overpay for his team not to match (looking at it from just an asset stand point) your basically paying him past the point where the pelicans (the league essentially) believes his contract isn't tradable. Why is that...well from the pelicans stand point even if you didn't want him why wouldn't you just match any contract and then offload him in a trade right after his moratorium lifts for his contract to be moved for assets? Its because you have to overpay past that point of Ball being a future tradable contract.

I personally would invest elsewhere.

Who else would you invest in especially at PG? I know you mentioned Brunson, but he doesnt seem available at the moment. Seems like we have a limited window to go after free agents too.

Also, I don't see $20mil as too much these days. There's over 50 players making $20mil, with top players making $40+mil. So while it is a lot, its market value for a solid starter, especially a younger PG.

In terms of Ball's value, its not just his shooting. He is a really good passer, good defender, has nice size. We would be locking him for his prime years so there's a chance he can get better. He has been a little bit inconsistency, but could also be one of those normal things some young players go thru. There's some upside if he can get a little bit more consistent.

I know he's not gonna get to the rim much, but I am ok with that given our roster build and knowing we can still add another star scorer who will likely need the ball. So ideally, adding a good off the ball shooter would be good to do and can focus on looking for another star.

Pelican's may end up matching or maybe they would take some smaller assets in a sign and trade and rather have the big trade exception. It seems like money is a big issue for them though so they may not want to take back contracts in a trade. If they match, they match. I would take a chance though.

I know Ball strengths aren't just decent shooting. He is a very good transition player and good defender as well. Still I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on his value.

How valuable is his passing if in the half court when he can't create off the dribble. Outstanding fast break player...great vision leading the break. But the knicks don't even run...they are ranked dead last in pace and its just not personal. Every Thibs coached team has ranked in the bottom 3rd in the league in pace every year. Its his style. He is a half court grind it out style offense.

I don't see how that would play to Lonzo's strengths because he is pretty meh in the half court.

I see Lonzo in the 4 year 64-72 range so if he wanted to come for that, sure by all means I would accept it because it would mean he would be a tradable contract moving forward as well..but that basically means I would not offer him a RFA contract for the purposes of our convo because the pelicans would match that and probably the bulls who are in no position to be patient will offer him over 20 MM.

There are better options both short term and long term for the knicks in my opinion that wouldn't require locking up Lonzo in the 4 year 80-100 MM range.

[Deeeez Knicks]

its not just one game at least for me. He is a solid player...just not paying him +20 MM to do what he does.

He can't break anyone down off the dribble in the half court. He has no off the bounce game that a main ball handler needs (mid range or pull up 3's). He doesn't get to the basket at all which means he doesn't get to the FT or put enough pressure on the defense...he's a system PG not a engine PG.

His spot up shooting is streaky is a bit streaky if you break down the months. He had one month where he shot 45.9% from 3. But every other month he has been below league avg in terms of shooting.

December - 28.6%
January - 33.8%
February - 45.9% (by far his best month)
March - 35.5%
April - 29.8%

seems a bit all over the place to me...when you talking about throwing big time $$$ at someone you have to sure he is going to be really good. I just don't know yet. He will be solid but the minute he has the contract he has to be better then just good or then the contract will be tough to move down the road.

I get it he's an improvement over Payton (nearly any PG who is breathing is). But I don't want to just settle and overpay and be in a situation where he won't live up to his contract. RFA is a dicey market because you are basically admitting you have to overpay for his team not to match (looking at it from just an asset stand point) your basically paying him past the point where the pelicans (the league essentially) believes his contract isn't tradable. Why is that...well from the pelicans stand point even if you didn't want him why wouldn't you just match any contract and then offload him in a trade right after his moratorium lifts for his contract to be moved for assets? Its because you have to overpay past that point of Ball being a future tradable contract.

I personally would invest elsewhere.

Who else would you invest in especially at PG? I know you mentioned Brunson, but he doesnt seem available at the moment. Seems like we have a limited window to go after free agents too.

Also, I don't see $20mil as too much these days. There's over 50 players making $20mil, with top players making $40+mil. So while it is a lot, its market value for a solid starter, especially a younger PG.

In terms of Ball's value, its not just his shooting. He is a really good passer, good defender, has nice size. We would be locking him for his prime years so there's a chance he can get better. He has been a little bit inconsistency, but could also be one of those normal things some young players go thru. There's some upside if he can get a little bit more consistent.

I know he's not gonna get to the rim much, but I am ok with that given our roster build and knowing we can still add another star scorer who will likely need the ball. So ideally, adding a good off the ball shooter would be good to do and can focus on looking for another star.

Pelican's may end up matching or maybe they would take some smaller assets in a sign and trade and rather have the big trade exception. It seems like money is a big issue for them though so they may not want to take back contracts in a trade. If they match, they match. I would take a chance though.

I know Ball strengths aren't just decent shooting. He is a very good transition player and good defender as well. Still I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on his value.

How valuable is his passing if in the half court when he can't create off the dribble. Outstanding fast break player...great vision leading the break. But the knicks don't even run...they are ranked dead last in pace and its just not personal. Every Thibs coached team has ranked in the bottom 3rd in the league in pace every year. Its his style. He is a half court grind it out style offense.

I don't see how that would play to Lonzo's strengths because he is pretty meh in the half court.

I see Lonzo in the 4 year 64-72 range..which basically means I would not offer him a RFA contract because the pelicans would match that and probably the bulls who are in no position to be patient will offer him over 20 MM.

There are better options both short term and long term in my opinion that wouldn't require locking up Lonzo in the 4 year 80-100 MM range.

Good/smart passers always have some value even in the half court. In the half court he is more of a spot up shooter who can work as a secondary facilitator. That works cause we can put the ball in Randle and RJ's hands. Looking towards the future it works even better if we can add 1 more star. If not Ball, I do feel someone that works off the ball and can defend as a 2-way player is the type we should add if we are not adding a superstar.

Thibs runs a slow pace for sure, but I dont think the goal to to be last in fast break points. His teams have had some years where they were middle of the pack in fast break points so he wants to be opportunistic and run when there are chances. Knicks are last right now. That is an area we can def improve on and something else Ball can help.

[knicks94]

After watching yesterday’s game I’d take Rick Brunson over Ball.

[sol537]

Brunson @ $15m per; Schroeder @ $17m per; or trade for Brogdon.

I still think something like Brogdon + Turner for Mitch + Obi (or IQ) is a type of trade we could see.

[3toheadmelo]

Are the pacers even looking to move brogdon

[CharlesOakley]

PG market is thin. I'm dreaming of Lillard forcing his way out of Portland but otherwise Schroeder is about as good as we can do.

[Richard4444]

Schoeder will cost more than 21/y. He refused an 84/4 offer from the Lakers.

Brogdon is a good name. I was wondering if he has the endurance to play for Thibs considering his injury history. But he has played 50 of 56 games this season so far and averaged 35 minutes. So I think his durability will not be a huge concern. Anyway, I think he would be pretty expensive. Moreover, I dont think Indiana wants to reset and rebuild. They have Sabonis, Turner, LeVert and Warren. If they trade, they would aim for another borderline star.

[BKlutch]

Lonzo is floor general even though he doesn't break down defense he has court vision if Knicks he get him he can be Kidd from 2012 Knicks.

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk

Kidd was smart.

[mpharris36]

Are the pacers even looking to move brogdon

They seem to be at a crossroad to mediocrity...they might need to cash in on some of these guys because whats there ceiling?

[mpharris36]

Lonzo is floor general even though he doesn't break down defense he has court vision if Knicks he get him he can be Kidd from 2012 Knicks.

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk

Kidd was smart.

Kidd also wasn't going to cost us +20 MM a season. Lonzo as a roll player is fine...I think he is a fine roll player...once you pay him top dollar you need more and I'm not sure he has that in him.

[8516knicks]

PG market is thin. I'm dreaming of Lillard forcing his way out of Portland but otherwise Schroeder is about as good as we can do.

Seems way overpriced to me. Rather stick with Rose and someone lower tier but reliable like Brunson and wait for a big name (Lowry, Conley) on the downside but a useful bridge to hopefully a good draft pick (IQ level).

[thebuzzardman]

[Buttah304]

If you want Dennis Schroeder you might as well just go for the vastly superior player in DeRozan.

I can understand why DS has some appeal. For starters he’s only 27 and seems to fit the bill of an attacking Thibs style PG because he averages 12.5 drives per game. But Demar actually goes to the rack 18 times a game (6th in the NBA) and is the much better scorer, significantly more efficient and he’s the clear cut better passer.

My preference would be to sign neither but if I had to choose I would rather sign Demar on a 2 year deal than Dennis for 4.

[Adelheid]

If Ball aint aggressive in attacking to the hoop then I doubt the Knicks would choose to go for him. Thibs seemingly likes guards who have drive-first mentality and are not afraid to venture inside the paint. Knicks FO is seeing right now that an attacking guard like Rose helps immensely considering that the team doesnt have that many shooters.

[-YogiBiz-]

Brunson hasn't shown hes special at doing anything. Hes playing nearly 26 minutes a game. Lonzo is a much better distributor and got a lot more upside.

He’s elite at the rim, a better shooter than Lonzo and can actually penetrate. Lonzo isn’t even a true point guard.

If you don’t mind me asking what you consider a true PG.

He brings the ball up, can initiate offense, makes stellar reads as passer, he shoots at a much higher than respectable rate (also Brunson isn’t a better shooter than Lonzo at this point it’s fairer to call it a wash cause Lonzo shoots much more from deep and Brunson barely shoots better than him on less than half the attempts per 36), and can dominate the opposite lead ball handler defensively.

Brunson is less of a true PG than Lonzo imo. Either would be a huge coup for this team (although Lonzo would fit better cause he’s better in the C&S and a much better defender).