2020-2021 College/Draft Thread 2

[cgf]

Maybe his narrow shoulders and cam reddish game scares me, but I have been wrong before

He's skinny, but so were Durant, Ingram, George, and countless other long-wings. And I think he's pretty different from cam...though both had experience sharing the lead ballhandler role on their HS teams, creating for others with the ball in his hands was a lot more pivotal to cam's game than Ziaire's...which lead intothe biggest difference between the two of them, Cam would switch off when Zion or RJ were running the show, while Ziaire slips smoothly into an offball role. Plus Ziaire's stroke is better and he's better shooting off the dribble as well.

I get why people make that comp, but I view Ziaire very differently from the way I did Reddish or Knox.

That’s fair and I feel it’s been brought up before, I guess it’s the saying once bit, twice shy.

Fair enough, Ziaire could certainly still end up a bust, but I do think he's a lot more Ingram/Tatum than Reddish/Knox above the shoulders, and his game should be a lot more flexible...even though he isn't going to be finishing at the rim consistently, any time soon, either.

...plus we missed out on the Williams I wanted last year, so the least they could do is get the Williams I want this year

[newyorker4ever]

It’s weird cuz I’m pretty sure he’s said he’s a big Haliburton fan too. The mocks thought he could go as high as 4 and he ended up falling to 12. Stuff like that happens all the time and it’s not always a knock on the player.

I'm just hoping we don't go with who Leon wants after how crazy he was for Obi last year and wanting to trade up for him. He was too blinded by a kid that was putting out showtime dunks to see how stiff he was/is and how bad defensively he was/is.

Leave the drafting to W.Perrin, F.Zanin, B.Aller and whoever else they trust.

How do you know that Perrin and the boys weren’t in on the Obi pick as well? Obi was considered a top 5 pick the entire draft process right up to draft night. He was pretty much loved by all the draft journalist too. Zach Lowe thought his offense was good enough to first overall. You probably wouldn’t be able to find any scout that thought his offense wouldn’t translate. It seems like they’ve all been wrong. Sometimes it happens.

The NY post article made it pretty clear that WWW was the one pushing Quickley but no info of any dissent about Obi. I don’t think there’s any evidence that to suggest that he wasn’t liked by everyone yet. Maybe in the future we’ll get a leak suggestion otherwise but right now Obi is on the whole front office.

Well if you were listening to everything they were saying before the draft the talk was that L.Rose loved Obi and was talking about trading up to get him and was ecstatic when he fell to #8. I'm gonna go ahead and keep believing that everyone didn't all want Obi.

There was talk that some in the front office would of rather had Hali and some Vassell. I also saw that Thibs and Aller had different ideas on multiple things with the draft and offseason as well.

No matter who wanted who doesn't matter really and what matters is Obi was the wrong pick.

[newyorker4ever]

I'm just hoping we don't go with who Leon wants after how crazy he was for Obi last year and wanting to trade up for him. He was too blinded by a kid that was putting out showtime dunks to see how stiff he was/is and how bad defensively he was/is.

Leave the drafting to W.Perrin, F.Zanin, B.Aller and whoever else they trust.

How do you know that Perrin and the boys weren’t in on the Obi pick as well? Obi was considered a top 5 pick the entire draft process right up to draft night. He was pretty much loved by all the draft journalist too. Zach Lowe thought his offense was good enough to first overall. You probably wouldn’t be able to find any scout that thought his offense wouldn’t translate. It seems like they’ve all been wrong. Sometimes it happens.

The NY post article made it pretty clear that WWW was the one pushing Quickley but no info of any dissent about Obi. I don’t think there’s any evidence that to suggest that he wasn’t liked by everyone yet. Maybe in the future we’ll get a leak suggestion otherwise but right now Obi is on the whole front office.

Also the picture of Thibs celebrating right after the pick seems to indicate that's who he wanted too

Can't hit on every pick, and at the very least, we didn't miss out on a star after Obi (least not yet).

But we did miss out on better players that play positions we could of actually used (at least as of now).

[cgf]

How do you know that Perrin and the boys weren’t in on the Obi pick as well? Obi was considered a top 5 pick the entire draft process right up to draft night. He was pretty much loved by all the draft journalist too. Zach Lowe thought his offense was good enough to first overall. You probably wouldn’t be able to find any scout that thought his offense wouldn’t translate. It seems like they’ve all been wrong. Sometimes it happens.

The NY post article made it pretty clear that WWW was the one pushing Quickley but no info of any dissent about Obi. I don’t think there’s any evidence that to suggest that he wasn’t liked by everyone yet. Maybe in the future we’ll get a leak suggestion otherwise but right now Obi is on the whole front office.

Also the picture of Thibs celebrating right after the pick seems to indicate that's who he wanted too

Can't hit on every pick, and at the very least, we didn't miss out on a star after Obi (least not yet).

But we did miss out on better players that play positions we could of actually used (at least as of now).

That's true of basically every pick unless you are getting a Giannis or Kawhi in the late teens.

[HerSports85]

My guy!!

[Fat]

Even though he's older, I like Chris Duarte as a solid player. Can see us looking at him with a later pick especially since he should be more ready to play.

I feel like we got stung drafting a older player in Obi and Duarte is actually older than Obi.

I think he would be older than RJ, Obi, Frank, and IQ.

That boy going to be like 28 years old by the time his rookie contract is up.

[NewKnicks]

James Bouknight

that's it. that's the post

Because of all these wins, we're not even going to have a shot at getting Bouknight anymore, unless he slides during the draft. And if he slides, then you have to question what type of player he's really going to be in the NBA, anyway.

he's #19 on ESPN, #23 by Wasserman

it's possible we have a shot at him, but regardless, I'd even trade up for him

Aren't you concerned a bit that he's sliding that far? I'm not crazy about him, but I do think he's lottery material at the bare minimum.

What are your thoughts on why he's moving down as we get closer to the draft?

By the way, I agree with you. If he slides to us, I'm good with taking a shot on him.

[NewKnicks]

James Bouknight

that's it. that's the post

Because of all these wins, we're not even going to have a shot at getting Bouknight anymore, unless he slides during the draft. And if he slides, then you have to question what type of player he's really going to be in the NBA, anyway.

If he slides by doing nothing over the next few months then all of a sudden we have to question his impact? Either you like the guy or don't at this point... There's not really anything he can do to change his perception from a scouting perspective.

Well, yes we do. There are significant reasons players slide as far as he's being projected to slide. Mid-late first round now. If he's a star in the making, why are all these front offices seeing it different? It's definitely something to consider..

[NewKnicks]

Because of all these wins, we're not even going to have a shot at getting Bouknight anymore, unless he slides during the draft. And if he slides, then you have to question what type of player he's really going to be in the NBA, anyway.

If he slides by doing nothing over the next few months then all of a sudden we have to question his impact? Either you like the guy or don't at this point... There's not really anything he can do to change his perception from a scouting perspective.

That's not entirely true. He could still tank his interviews or conversely he could show immense skill growth since the end of the season, in workouts...something I'm looking out for with Keon & Barnes...both of which could still push his stock in either direction.

I agree 100%. There is still a chance he climbs as well. But, at a minimum, when a player slides it's worth considering the reasons. It doesn't mean he won't be a great pick, but it is definitely something to consider.

[NewKnicks]

Because of all these wins, we're not even going to have a shot at getting Bouknight anymore, unless he slides during the draft. And if he slides, then you have to question what type of player he's really going to be in the NBA, anyway.

If he slides by doing nothing over the next few months then all of a sudden we have to question his impact? Either you like the guy or don't at this point... There's not really anything he can do to change his perception from a scouting perspective.

It’s weird cuz I’m pretty sure he’s said he’s a big Haliburton fan too. The mocks thought he could go as high as 4 and he ended up falling to 12. Stuff like that happens all the time and it’s not always a knock on the player.

Are there players who slide but still end up being great draft picks? Sure. But it decreases the odds. Are you arguing that fact? I never said he won't still be a good player in the NBA, all I said was when players slide, there's a reason for it. That's just common sense, but you do you.

[NewKnicks]

Kofi just declared for the draft. I want him with our 2nd rd pick, even if we have to buy one. Will love to see what Thibs and KP can get out of him

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

As an Illini fan, I love me some Kofi. He's been a mini Shaq in college. Definitely worth a 2nd rounder, but because of his lack of shooting ability, it's going to be tough transition for him. Doesn't mean that he can't come in and eat some minutes as a banger inside and grab some boards.

Also, he's a really good kid and a hard worker. There won't be any drama with him either.

[jvsimonetti0514]

If he slides by doing nothing over the next few months then all of a sudden we have to question his impact? Either you like the guy or don't at this point... There's not really anything he can do to change his perception from a scouting perspective.

It’s weird cuz I’m pretty sure he’s said he’s a big Haliburton fan too. The mocks thought he could go as high as 4 and he ended up falling to 12. Stuff like that happens all the time and it’s not always a knock on the player.

Are there players who slide but still end up being great draft picks? Sure. But it decreases the odds. Are you arguing that fact? I never said he won't still be a good player in the NBA, all I said was when players slide, there's a reason for it. That's just common sense, but you do you.

What was the reason that Haliburton fell then?

[NewKnicks]

It’s weird cuz I’m pretty sure he’s said he’s a big Haliburton fan too. The mocks thought he could go as high as 4 and he ended up falling to 12. Stuff like that happens all the time and it’s not always a knock on the player.

Are there players who slide but still end up being great draft picks? Sure. But it decreases the odds. Are you arguing that fact? I never said he won't still be a good player in the NBA, all I said was when players slide, there's a reason for it. That's just common sense, but you do you.

What was the reason that Haliburton fell then?

Obviously one was the hitch on his jump shot and whether he would be able to get his shot off against taller more athletic players in the NBA. That was a big one.

Why are putting all your focus on one player?

Also, this is hilarious because I've actually said I like Bouknight. All I'm saying is there are reasons players drop in drafts. Apparently you disagree with that.

[3toheadmelo]

some gms overthink it and let good players drop. its not like some conspiracy theory. Gms and scouts miss on players all the time. happens to the best of them

[NewKnicks]

Because of all these wins, we're not even going to have a shot at getting Bouknight anymore, unless he slides during the draft. And if he slides, then you have to question what type of player he's really going to be in the NBA, anyway.

If he slides by doing nothing over the next few months then all of a sudden we have to question his impact? Either you like the guy or don't at this point... There's not really anything he can do to change his perception from a scouting perspective.

That's not entirely true. He could still tank his interviews or conversely he could show immense skill growth since the end of the season, in workouts...something I'm looking out for with Keon & Barnes...both of which could still push his stock in either direction.

I'm really curious to see what happens with Barnes' stock as we get closer. He seems to be holding steady at 6-10 on most mocks, and there are obvious reasons for that. A lot of posters on here are completely sold on Bouknight and others, but are 100% sure Barnes sucks and don't see what value he can offer at the next level. But NBA GM's disagree.

Before I get flamed again regarding Bouknight, I already said I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him. It's just hilarious that some posters on here are making fun of Barnes, and putting other players on pedestals as if they are better evaluators than NBA scouts.

[HerSports85]

Kofi just declared for the draft. I want him with our 2nd rd pick, even if we have to buy one. Will love to see what Thibs and KP can get out of him

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

As an Illini fan, I love me some Kofi. He's been a mini Shaq in college. Definitely worth a 2nd rounder, but because of his lack of shooting ability, it's going to be tough transition for him. Doesn't mean that he can't come in and eat some minutes as a banger inside and grab some boards.

Also, he's a really good kid and a hard worker. There won't be any drama with him either.

Yeah I’m really intrigued by his body type and his ability to move his feet, leaping ability and quick jump. Also, I like his timing on blocks. We need a big body that can dominate on the boards.

Glad you mentioned him being a good kid. From the few games I’ve watched, he does seem like a good teammate and he always look like he’s out working everyone.

[NewKnicks]

Kofi just declared for the draft. I want him with our 2nd rd pick, even if we have to buy one. Will love to see what Thibs and KP can get out of him

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Now that I think about it, we could take a flyer on Kofi with the idea that he can come in and provide solid minutes behind Randle/Mitch. Kind of what we hoped for with our buster Obi.

Obviously Kofi and Obi have completely different games, but Kofi has an NBA body already, and could potentially be ready to give solid backup minutes right away.

Would love it if we could snag him in the second round. If he panned out, we wouldn't need to sign a vet to back up the bigs. We'd have a low salaried player taking up some minutes.

I could see a team like the Spurs taking a flyer on him, and molding him into a good NBA player. That franchise is great at that.

[NewKnicks]

We'd have to go on a few more 5-game winning streaks to miss out on all of the kids who have the talent to become really good starters alongside Julius & Rowan. Bouknight would be great, but so would Moody or Ziaire, failing them Kai Jones & Giddey have interesting tools to work with, etc.

So I'm not too stressed about our draft position now that it's clear we don't suck enough to get a top 5 pick. At this point what I'm most curious about is whether we could get two kids from that tier using some combination of our extra picks and Knox/Frank, since I doubt the FO is ready to cut bait on Obi already...ideally leaving the Pistons pick to move from for Butler.

Cause if we could leave this draft with 2 of Bouknight/Moody/Ziaire and still have that pistons pick to try & upgrade to Butler; I'd be grinning from ear to ear...whether we ended up developing all of that young talent to be part of our core, or moving most of them in a future deal that gave RJ & Julius an established third star a la Mitchell or Booker. Especially if we use our cap space on younger FAs who can grow with our team the way Julius has and end up out-performing their contracts...Trent, Horton-Tucker, Schröder, Lonzo, etc.

Sure would be nice to come out of this draft with a legit shooter like Moody or Kispert, and not just a 3-D type but starting level legit shooter.

If one of those two somehow fall to us, I think we have to grab them. Those types of shooters are hard to come by, and with Moody the sky is still the limit. He hasn't tapped into most of his talent yet.

[NewKnicks]

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Notes on ziaire Williams

Spoiler:

International standouts pushing Ziaire Williams down

For the most part, I've overlooked Williams' underwhelming season for long-term potential. But other NCAA and overseas prospects were strengthening their cases while Williams watched from March 3 on after a 1-for-8 performance during Stanford's Pac-12 tournament loss to USC.

I've moved a few international names ahead of Williams, who shot just 37.4 percent in 20 games. The eye test looked better than his numbers, but except for Cam Reddish, there hasn't been a recent lottery pick (from NCAA) who struggled like Williams did from the field.

As smooth as his jumper looks, he only shot 29.1 percent from three, a little scary for a player who doesn't get to the rim, draw fouls or handle contact. It's still worth gambling on Williams' shooting stroke, shot-making versatility and defensive projection, but the holes in his game are easier to swallow later in the first round.

Davion Mitchell

Spoiler:

Slowing down on Davion Mitchell

Now that the excitement of the NCAA tournament has worn off and we're no longer living in the moment, I've taken a step back to reevaluate Mitchell and gather more feedback.

While scouts expect a team will wind up taking him near the top 10, Mitchell was No. 20 for me before March Madness. History warns about making serious changes based on postseason performance. History also says to be careful with prospects who'll be 23-year-old rookies, though there have been a decent amount of success stories like Devonte' Graham, Malcolm Brogdon, Fred VanVleet, Norman Powell, Jordan Clarkson and Joe Harris.

Still, the surprise late-blooming breakout, age and a 65.2 free-throw percentage cause some hesitation when projecting his offense. And though he should still provide tough defense, it can be easy to overrate a guard's defensive impact out of college. At the next level, good offense beats good defense from the point of attack, and recent tape shows March/April opponents like Texas Tech's Mac McLung (17 points), West Virginia's Miles McBride (19 points) and Villanova's Justin Moore (15 points) still scoring on Mitchell.

I'm not jumping off the wagon—I'm just more comfortable with Mitchell as a pick in the teens or 20s after prospects who are three to four years younger.

Isaiah Jackson

Spoiler:

More to Isaiah Jackson's game?

If you squint hard enough at Jackson's tape, hidden game and skill become visible on certain possessions.

The draw to Jackson still revolves around his bounce and quickness for finishing and shot-blocking. His 12.7 block percentage will be higher than that of other first-round picks. But despite averaging just 8.4 points, flashes of face-up moves, mid-range touch and jump hooks hint at more scoring upside to unlock down the road.

There is a belief that NBA executives who didn't scout much during the season could be swayed by Jackson during workouts, where he'll be able to showcase skill that was masked at Kentucky.

Suggs vs Green

Spoiler:

Debating Jalen Green vs. Jalen Suggs

After Cunningham, there is a case to be made for Green, Mobley and Suggs being deserving of the No. 2 prospect title. But a re-watch of G League Ignite games and deeper dive into Gonzaga's film have led to change on our board.

While there is very little separating Nos. 2-4, Green moves up to No. 2, as I may have overlooked just how sharp, advanced and efficient he was executing against current/former pros and recent draft picks. Special athleticism has always been his signature, specifically ridiculous quickness off the bounce and explosive leaping at the rim. But Green's shot-creation and shot-making have developed into legitimate strengths.

For Ignite, he regularly separated into drives and dribble jumpers with decisive ball-handling moves and footwork. His shot is significantly improved and I'm buying what we saw in February versus previous FIBA and AAU numbers.

Even if he currently lacks strength or tries to avoid contact, some of his finishes highlighted incredibly advantageous hang time and coordination for mid-air adjustments.

It's just too easy to picture an elite NBA scorer given how comfortable he looked in the G League bubble, where averaged 17.9 points on 61.3 percent true shooting before erupting for 30 points in the Ignite's playoff game.

Previously, my fears with Green stemmed from his shot selection and decision-making. He loves his pull-up, sometimes too much. But I'm starting to think the concerns were overblown based on his age, talent, consistent progress and effectiveness in a competitive setting.

As much as I value Suggs as a prospect, I worry that his lovable intangibles—effort, toughness, unselfishness, clutch play—can cloud judgement when it comes to assessing his skill level. His handle isn't the tightest, while his 33.7 three-point mark, low-volume attempts (3.5 per game) and bad misses have caused me to hesitate on his shooting projection.

Still, Suggs is well-rounded enough physically, fundamentally and mentally for a team to confidently take him top three. There is no scary hole in his game, and deeming him No. 2 behind Cunningham (like I had) remains acceptable. You can argue he's safer than Green, who doesn't offer Suggs' playmaking or defensive impact.

The team picking second probably can't go wrong with Green, Suggs or Mobley. Best team fit may ultimately be the deciding factor in which player has the best case

I like the breakdown of Suggs vs Green. I would kill to be in the position of having to make that decision. I really don't know which one I would take at this point. Both project to be stars in the league, but do you want the elite PG in Suggs, or the elite SG in Green. Gonna be a tough choice for whichever team is in that position.

[cgf]

If he slides by doing nothing over the next few months then all of a sudden we have to question his impact? Either you like the guy or don't at this point... There's not really anything he can do to change his perception from a scouting perspective.

That's not entirely true. He could still tank his interviews or conversely he could show immense skill growth since the end of the season, in workouts...something I'm looking out for with Keon & Barnes...both of which could still push his stock in either direction.

I'm really curious to see what happens with Barnes' stock as we get closer. He seems to be holding steady at 6-10 on most mocks, and there are obvious reasons for that. A lot of posters on here are completely sold on Bouknight and others, but are 100% sure Barnes sucks and don't see what value he can offer at the next level. But NBA GM's disagree.

Before I get flamed again regarding Bouknight, I already said I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him. It's just hilarious that some posters on here are making fun of Barnes, and putting other players on pedestals as if they are better evaluators than NBA scouts.

I like Barnes as a prospect in general, but a) his fit next to Julius & Rowan is dubious, especially since b) Barnes ability to put the ball in the hoop at the next level is a huge question mark that could well decide whether he's the next Lamar Odom or Justice Winslow. And if we're going to roll the dice on a kid who isn't the finished product -- like I think we should -- it makes more sense to do it for a kid who'll complement our cornerstones if he hits...of which we should have a number of interesting options.

So it makes sense for our fanbase to be lower on Barnes than others.