Stephen Curry has been totally exposed

[Doctor MJ]

Next time use google search first before hitting send. Your memory either sucks or is very selective

He had a torrid stretch throughout 2019 but not anywhere near this level of efficiency.

Let’s not split hairs just because two things aren’t exactly alike. No two things are exactly alike.

Harden had higher volume, Curry had higher efficiency, and both were/are incredible, historic feats of elite scoring.

So, this is where a stat like TS Add is useful. If you're not familiar, it's basically multiplying a guy's efficiency edge by his shooting volume.

Harden last year led the league in the stat with +227.5, meaning that essentially he scored 227.5 more points than you'd expect an NBA player to score given the amount of shots he took.

Harden also has a great track record with the stat having broken +200 each of the last 9 years, which is a pretty rare streak. By contrast, Jordan only broke +200 4 times.

Of course it should noted, all 4 times Jordan broke +200, he also broke +300 (peaking at +330.4), while Harden's peak was +259.2.

How does Curry stack up? Well, prior to this year he had 6 +200 seasons, 2 +300 seasons, and his best year he had a +454.7. So less consistent than Harden, but higher highs.

And this year? Curry's leading the league at +221.2, which means that in 50 games he's pretty much matched what it took to lead the league last year, and he's going at a pace that would far surpass anything we've seen from Harden (as well as passing Jordan's best), even though he's still nowhere near the number of his own peak. (btw, #2 in the league is Jokic +174.3).

Now as I say this, I'm not trying to say that all situations are identical. There's certainly more to a player's scoring impact that can be captured here. But I do think it's worth knowing that people have been looking to quantify value added by a combination of volume & efficiency, as well as that Harden looks fantastic by the stat. It's just that Curry is one of a kind here.

[D.Brasco]

He's still a great player, GOAT shooter no doubt but I wonder what records others GOATish players in history could achieve with this Warriors team?

Could they elevate them above a 9th seed? I'm legitimately curious if '91 Jordan or '18 LeBron, '91 Magic, '94 Hakeem were there in place of Steph?

A great player also elevates the whole team around them.

[Raps in 4]

He's still a great player, GOAT shooter no doubt but I wonder what records others GOATish players in history could achieve with this Warriors team?

Could they elevate them above a 9th seed? I'm legitimately curious if '91 Jordan or '18 LeBron, '91 Magic, '94 Hakeem were there in place of Steph?

A great player also elevates the whole team around them.

Jordan and Lebron would squeeze out a few extra wins, maybe Kareem and Shaq too. But that's about it. There are few players in history who have had a greater impact on winning than Curry.

[The_Hater]

That’s a great stat, seriously, but you seem to be assuming that I was replying to comments about Curry’s TS% during the streak and only using Harden’s TS% for comparison. I wasn’t. Plus the hot streak I brought Harden’s streak from 2 seasons ago, not last year, so I’m not sure why you’re using Harden’s TS%+ from last year?

He had a torrid stretch throughout 2019 but not anywhere near this level of efficiency.

Let’s not split hairs just because two things aren’t exactly alike. No two things are exactly alike.

Harden had higher volume, Curry had higher efficiency, and both were/are incredible, historic feats of elite scoring.

So, this is where a stat like TS Add is useful. If you're not familiar, it's basically multiplying a guy's efficiency edge by his shooting volume.

Harden last year led the league in the stat with +227.5, meaning that essentially he scored 227.5 more points than you'd expect an NBA player to score given the amount of shots he took.

Harden also has a great track record with the stat having broken +200 each of the last 9 years, which is a pretty rare streak. By contrast, Jordan only broke +200 4 times.

Of course it should noted, all 4 times Jordan broke +200, he also broke +300 (peaking at +330.4), while Harden's peak was +259.2.

How does Curry stack up? Well, prior to this year he had 6 +200 seasons, 2 +300 seasons, and his best year he had a +454.7. So less consistent than Harden, but higher highs.

And this year? Curry's leading the league at +221.2, which means that in 50 games he's pretty much matched what it took to lead the league last year, and he's going at a pace that would far surpass anything we've seen from Harden (as well as passing Jordan's best), even though he's still nowhere near the number of his own peak. (btw, #2 in the league is Jokic +174.3).

Now as I say this, I'm not trying to say that all situations are identical. There's certainly more to a player's scoring impact that can be captured here. But I do think it's worth knowing that people have been looking to quantify value added by a combination of volume & efficiency, as well as that Harden looks fantastic by the stat. It's just that Curry is one of a kind here.

[WarriorGM]

He's still a great player, GOAT shooter no doubt but I wonder what records others GOATish players in history could achieve with this Warriors team?

Could they elevate them above a 9th seed? I'm legitimately curious if '91 Jordan or '18 LeBron, '91 Magic, '94 Hakeem were there in place of Steph?

A great player also elevates the whole team around them.

Jordan and Lebron would squeeze out a few extra wins, maybe Kareem and Shaq too. But that's about it. There are few players in history who have had a greater impact on winning than Curry.

We saw Jordan have his highest scoring season in 1987 and lead his team to a 40-42 record. We saw LeBron in 2019 with the Lakers miss the playoffs. There is no real basis upon which to presume they would do better in Curry's position.

[DaPessimist]

He's still a great player, GOAT shooter no doubt but I wonder what records others GOATish players in history could achieve with this Warriors team?

Could they elevate them above a 9th seed? I'm legitimately curious if '91 Jordan or '18 LeBron, '91 Magic, '94 Hakeem were there in place of Steph?

A great player also elevates the whole team around them.

Only MJ would take this team higher. Not because Curry is better than those other players, but because the current Warriors roster lacks shooting, in a league designed around shooting. All of those guys above would be hard-doubled and trapped, and the teams success would rely on Wiggins, Draymond, and Oubre hitting jumpers.

Curry is more difficult to double/trap, because you have to do it 30 feet from the hoop. And even with the rest of the squad essentially playing 4 v 3 for parts of the game.... Warriors are still a .500 team (in the West).

As for MJ, I just think he would get to the hoop at will and live at the FT line in the modern NBA. Combined with his defensive prowess I think he could get this team to 4th or 5th out West.

[art_tatum]

I just want to thank everyone from both sides for getting this thread to over 100 pages. Bless.

[BoatsNZones]

He had a torrid stretch throughout 2019 but not anywhere near this level of efficiency.

Let’s not split hairs just because two things aren’t exactly alike. No two things are exactly alike.

Harden had higher volume, Curry had higher efficiency, and both were/are incredible, historic feats of elite scoring.

So, this is where a stat like TS Add is useful. If you're not familiar, it's basically multiplying a guy's efficiency edge by his shooting volume.

Harden last year led the league in the stat with +227.5, meaning that essentially he scored 227.5 more points than you'd expect an NBA player to score given the amount of shots he took.

Harden also has a great track record with the stat having broken +200 each of the last 9 years, which is a pretty rare streak. By contrast, Jordan only broke +200 4 times.

Of course it should noted, all 4 times Jordan broke +200, he also broke +300 (peaking at +330.4), while Harden's peak was +259.2.

How does Curry stack up? Well, prior to this year he had 6 +200 seasons, 2 +300 seasons, and his best year he had a +454.7. So less consistent than Harden, but higher highs.

And this year? Curry's leading the league at +221.2, which means that in 50 games he's pretty much matched what it took to lead the league last year, and he's going at a pace that would far surpass anything we've seen from Harden (as well as passing Jordan's best), even though he's still nowhere near the number of his own peak. (btw, #2 in the league is Jokic +174.3).

Now as I say this, I'm not trying to say that all situations are identical. There's certainly more to a player's scoring impact that can be captured here. But I do think it's worth knowing that people have been looking to quantify value added by a combination of volume & efficiency, as well as that Harden looks fantastic by the stat. It's just that Curry is one of a kind here.

Super interesting, I'm not sure why I haven't seen this before. Where do you find it?

[WarriorGM]

Let’s not split hairs just because two things aren’t exactly alike. No two things are exactly alike.

Harden had higher volume, Curry had higher efficiency, and both were/are incredible, historic feats of elite scoring.

So, this is where a stat like TS Add is useful. If you're not familiar, it's basically multiplying a guy's efficiency edge by his shooting volume.

Harden last year led the league in the stat with +227.5, meaning that essentially he scored 227.5 more points than you'd expect an NBA player to score given the amount of shots he took.

Harden also has a great track record with the stat having broken +200 each of the last 9 years, which is a pretty rare streak. By contrast, Jordan only broke +200 4 times.

Of course it should noted, all 4 times Jordan broke +200, he also broke +300 (peaking at +330.4), while Harden's peak was +259.2.

How does Curry stack up? Well, prior to this year he had 6 +200 seasons, 2 +300 seasons, and his best year he had a +454.7. So less consistent than Harden, but higher highs.

And this year? Curry's leading the league at +221.2, which means that in 50 games he's pretty much matched what it took to lead the league last year, and he's going at a pace that would far surpass anything we've seen from Harden (as well as passing Jordan's best), even though he's still nowhere near the number of his own peak. (btw, #2 in the league is Jokic +174.3).

Now as I say this, I'm not trying to say that all situations are identical. There's certainly more to a player's scoring impact that can be captured here. But I do think it's worth knowing that people have been looking to quantify value added by a combination of volume & efficiency, as well as that Harden looks fantastic by the stat. It's just that Curry is one of a kind here.

Super interesting, I'm not sure why I haven't seen this before. Where do you find it?

It's on Basketball Reference Player's Adjusted Shooting section. If I'm not mistaken they've added some statistics on their player pages that didn't used to be there but I'm unsure when. On-Off is another interesting one that they've made more visible that's in the Play-by-Play section.

[rtiff68]

I just want to thank everyone from both sides for getting this thread to over 100 pages. Bless.

Here’s how I would sum up this thread...

“Player X can’t do this!”

<it’s clearly illustrated that Player X has already done what he’s apparently incapable of>

“...but Player X still can’t do it!”

<Player X does it again in real time right in front of everyone>

“...but Player X still can’t do it! You’ll see when he struggles in the future!”

A hypothetical future does not erase what has already happened. There’s some fascinating delusion in this thread.

[Raps in 4]

He's still a great player, GOAT shooter no doubt but I wonder what records others GOATish players in history could achieve with this Warriors team?

Could they elevate them above a 9th seed? I'm legitimately curious if '91 Jordan or '18 LeBron, '91 Magic, '94 Hakeem were there in place of Steph?

A great player also elevates the whole team around them.

Jordan and Lebron would squeeze out a few extra wins, maybe Kareem and Shaq too. But that's about it. There are few players in history who have had a greater impact on winning than Curry.

We saw Jordan have his highest scoring season in 1987 and lead his team to a 40-42 record. We saw LeBron in 2019 with the Lakers miss the playoffs. There is no real basis upon which to presume they would do better in Curry's position.

I just think they are better players than Curry, so I assume they'll contribute to winning more games. I don't think Curry is on MJ and Lebron's level. I do think he has a case for top-5 all-time in terms of peak impact though.

[BoatsNZones]

So, this is where a stat like TS Add is useful. If you're not familiar, it's basically multiplying a guy's efficiency edge by his shooting volume.

Harden last year led the league in the stat with +227.5, meaning that essentially he scored 227.5 more points than you'd expect an NBA player to score given the amount of shots he took.

Harden also has a great track record with the stat having broken +200 each of the last 9 years, which is a pretty rare streak. By contrast, Jordan only broke +200 4 times.

Of course it should noted, all 4 times Jordan broke +200, he also broke +300 (peaking at +330.4), while Harden's peak was +259.2.

How does Curry stack up? Well, prior to this year he had 6 +200 seasons, 2 +300 seasons, and his best year he had a +454.7. So less consistent than Harden, but higher highs.

And this year? Curry's leading the league at +221.2, which means that in 50 games he's pretty much matched what it took to lead the league last year, and he's going at a pace that would far surpass anything we've seen from Harden (as well as passing Jordan's best), even though he's still nowhere near the number of his own peak. (btw, #2 in the league is Jokic +174.3).

Now as I say this, I'm not trying to say that all situations are identical. There's certainly more to a player's scoring impact that can be captured here. But I do think it's worth knowing that people have been looking to quantify value added by a combination of volume & efficiency, as well as that Harden looks fantastic by the stat. It's just that Curry is one of a kind here.

Super interesting, I'm not sure why I haven't seen this before. Where do you find it?

It's on Basketball Reference Player's Adjusted Shooting section. If I'm not mistaken they've added some statistics on their player pages that didn't used to be there but I'm unsure when. On-Off is another interesting one that they've made more visible that's in the Play-by-Play section.

Thanks, I love that this is a league-adjusted construct as well.

Scouring through some marquee scorers, it looks like Kobe peaked at a +161 in '07 (he was +118 in '06), Lebron's 12/13 and 13/14 were a monsterous +336 and +347 (six total seasons over 200, two over 300), from 87-91 Jordan was +300-330 each season (4x), Harden peaked at +259 in both '15 and '19, Iverson at +104 in 2008 with Denver (worth noting he was a negative in this stat most seasons), and Shaq had a +303 season back in Orlando.

But Mr. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar looks like the poster for both consistency and peak dominance in it (makes sense). His first two MVP seasons in Milwaukee (also the only two seasons he actually led the league in scoring), he had a +453 and +460. Wilt had two +400 seasons as well. Passes the test as the two scorers who were just way ahead of the curve for their time. Curry's +455 in 2016 and the pace he's at this year (he won't have enough games to reach that cumulatively) are the only two seasons that rival those, and the only ones I could find for a player post-merger at anywhere near this level.

[WarriorGM]

Jordan and Lebron would squeeze out a few extra wins, maybe Kareem and Shaq too. But that's about it. There are few players in history who have had a greater impact on winning than Curry.

We saw Jordan have his highest scoring season in 1987 and lead his team to a 40-42 record. We saw LeBron in 2019 with the Lakers miss the playoffs. There is no real basis upon which to presume they would do better in Curry's position.

I just think they are better players than Curry, so I assume they'll contribute to winning more games. I don't think Curry is on MJ and Lebron's level. I do think he has a case for top-5 all-time in terms of peak impact though.

My apologies in case I'm being vexing. I usually have no issue with people expressing their opinions freely. But the entire premise of this thread was based on conjecture and prejudice derived from specious reductive basketball truisms. I'm searching for evidence grounding these opinions as they pertain to Curry and usually not finding any.

[michaelm]

[list=][/list]:roll: jjjh

He's still a great player, GOAT shooter no doubt but I wonder what records others GOATish players in history could achieve with this Warriors team?

Could they elevate them above a 9th seed? I'm legitimately curious if '91 Jordan or '18 LeBron, '91 Magic, '94 Hakeem were there in place of Steph?

A great player also elevates the whole team around them.

Jordan and Lebron would squeeze out a few extra wins, maybe Kareem and Shaq too. But that's about it. There are few players in history who have had a greater impact on winning than Curry.

We saw Jordan have his highest scoring season in 1987 and lead his team to a 40-42 record. We saw LeBron in 2019 with the Lakers miss the playoffs. There is no real basis upon which to presume they would do better in Curry's position.

Lots of extraneous stuff and goal post shifting by the original Curry antagonists in the latter part of the thread, with one poster appearing to contend that his speculation/hypotheses about Curry’s future disproves the present. The original implication was fairly clearly that Curry would be exposed individually without a strong team around him, which he had already disproved earlier in his career, and has disproved in spades this year, reducing the antagonists to discounting his performances due to team success, having already discounted similar performances when his team was very successful. I personally would argue that elevating already highly elite players is a hard thing to do myself.

No-one in the history of the NBA has done what peak Curry does, and sure even Jordan couldn’t elevate this team by doing what Curry is doing. That is not to say that Jordan in particular or LeBron, or Harden for that matter, couldn’t elevate this team as much as Curry is doing using a different methodology. I doubt even Jordan could take them to strong title contention though, which is what posters on the anti-Curry side of the debate now seem to be requiring of Curry.
(EDIT Made this post before seeing Rtiff68’s post 2030 which makes similar points).

[Doctor MJ]

Let’s not split hairs just because two things aren’t exactly alike. No two things are exactly alike.

Harden had higher volume, Curry had higher efficiency, and both were/are incredible, historic feats of elite scoring.

So, this is where a stat like TS Add is useful. If you're not familiar, it's basically multiplying a guy's efficiency edge by his shooting volume.

Harden last year led the league in the stat with +227.5, meaning that essentially he scored 227.5 more points than you'd expect an NBA player to score given the amount of shots he took.

Harden also has a great track record with the stat having broken +200 each of the last 9 years, which is a pretty rare streak. By contrast, Jordan only broke +200 4 times.

Of course it should noted, all 4 times Jordan broke +200, he also broke +300 (peaking at +330.4), while Harden's peak was +259.2.

How does Curry stack up? Well, prior to this year he had 6 +200 seasons, 2 +300 seasons, and his best year he had a +454.7. So less consistent than Harden, but higher highs.

And this year? Curry's leading the league at +221.2, which means that in 50 games he's pretty much matched what it took to lead the league last year, and he's going at a pace that would far surpass anything we've seen from Harden (as well as passing Jordan's best), even though he's still nowhere near the number of his own peak. (btw, #2 in the league is Jokic +174.3).

Now as I say this, I'm not trying to say that all situations are identical. There's certainly more to a player's scoring impact that can be captured here. But I do think it's worth knowing that people have been looking to quantify value added by a combination of volume & efficiency, as well as that Harden looks fantastic by the stat. It's just that Curry is one of a kind here.

That’s a great stat, seriously, but you seem to be assuming that I was replying to comments about Curry’s TS% during the streak and only using Harden’s TS% for comparison. I wasn’t. Plus the hot streak I brought Harden’s streak from 2 seasons ago, not last year, so I’m not sure why you’re using Harden’s TS%+ from last year?

Did you miss the part where I also mentioned Harden's career peak in this stat?

[Doctor MJ]

Super interesting, I'm not sure why I haven't seen this before. Where do you find it?

It's on Basketball Reference Player's Adjusted Shooting section. If I'm not mistaken they've added some statistics on their player pages that didn't used to be there but I'm unsure when. On-Off is another interesting one that they've made more visible that's in the Play-by-Play section.

Thanks, I love that this is a league-adjusted construct as well.

Scouring through some marquee scorers, it looks like Kobe peaked at a +161 in '07 (he was +118 in '06), Lebron's 12/13 and 13/14 were a monsterous +336 and +347 (six total seasons over 200, two over 300), from 87-91 Jordan was +300-330 each season (4x), Harden peaked at +259 in both '15 and '19, Iverson at +104 in 2008 with Denver (worth noting he was a negative in this stat most seasons), and Shaq had a +303 season back in Orlando.

But Mr. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar looks like the poster for both consistency and peak dominance in it (makes sense). His first two MVP seasons in Milwaukee (also the only two seasons he actually led the league in scoring), he had a +453 and +460. Wilt had two +400 seasons as well. Passes the test as the two scorers who were just way ahead of the curve for their time. Curry's +455 in 2016 and the pace he's at this year (he won't have enough games to reach that cumulatively) are the only two seasons that rival those, and the only ones I could find for a player post-merger at anywhere near this level.

Glad you dig in. Yeah, it's on bkref. I've also compiled a spreadsheet with some stuff you might find useful:

Historical TS Add

[triple_threat]

He's still a great player, GOAT shooter no doubt but I wonder what records others GOATish players in history could achieve with this Warriors team?

Could they elevate them above a 9th seed? I'm legitimately curious if '91 Jordan or '18 LeBron, '91 Magic, '94 Hakeem were there in place of Steph?

A great player also elevates the whole team around them.

Jordan and Lebron would squeeze out a few extra wins, maybe Kareem and Shaq too. But that's about it. There are few players in history who have had a greater impact on winning than Curry.

We saw Jordan have his highest scoring season in 1987 and lead his team to a 40-42 record. We saw LeBron in 2019 with the Lakers miss the playoffs. There is no real basis upon which to presume they would do better in Curry's position.

The basis is several of lebrons seasons with the cavs without kyrie. To single out lebron's first year on the lakers in a new system with a new coach where he had an injury at age 34 prior to which the lakers were in the 2nd seed is disingenuous to say the least.

Give prime athletic lebron draymond Wiggins oubre wiseman over half the season and scraps and they're winning over 50 games for 2 reasons: younger lebron can anchor a defense like no other wing ever and he elevates scraps like no one ever has.

[speedfiend]

Jordan and Lebron would squeeze out a few extra wins, maybe Kareem and Shaq too. But that's about it. There are few players in history who have had a greater impact on winning than Curry.

We saw Jordan have his highest scoring season in 1987 and lead his team to a 40-42 record. We saw LeBron in 2019 with the Lakers miss the playoffs. There is no real basis upon which to presume they would do better in Curry's position.

The basis is several of lebrons seasons with the cavs without kyrie. To single out lebron's first year on the lakers in a new system with a new coach where he had an injury at age 34 prior to which the lakers were in the 2nd seed is disingenuous to say the least.

Give prime athletic lebron draymond Wiggins oubre wiseman over half the season and scraps and they're winning over 50 games for 2 reasons: younger lebron can anchor a defense like no other wing ever and he elevates scraps like no one ever has.

More likely Lebron would throw a fit, get Kerr replaced, and demand the front office to trade Draymond Wiggins and Oubre. Wiseman would be sitting at the end of the bench for most of the season.

There would also be rumors of Giannis joining the team all season.

[everdiso]

Absolutely criminal that KD got those finals mvps when he was clearly the 2nd best player.

[Onlytimewilltel]

I just want to thank everyone from both sides for getting this thread to over 100 pages. Bless.

Just goes to show you that anything is possible when you believe and commit your self!