2020-2021 College/Draft Thread 2

[jvsimonetti0514]

Are there players who slide but still end up being great draft picks? Sure. But it decreases the odds. Are you arguing that fact? I never said he won't still be a good player in the NBA, all I said was when players slide, there's a reason for it. That's just common sense, but you do you.

What was the reason that Haliburton fell then?

Obviously one was the hitch on his jump shot and whether he would be able to get his shot off against taller more athletic players in the NBA. That was a big one.

Why are putting all your focus on one player?

Also, this is hilarious because I've actually said I like Bouknight. All I'm saying is there are reasons players drop in drafts. Apparently you disagree with that.

"Why are you focusing on a player that debunks my claim." Deni and Obi also dropped last year for no particular reason as well. That's just your opinion on why Haliburton dropped but there's no evidence to support it. Usually, there's some press about why a player is dropping. Like Killian Hayes from example, DX and Wasserman kept talking about how actual scouts we're much lower on him than the draft journos but all it takes is for one team to fall in love with a guy to change everything. Or even now with Bouknight, it's about his playmaking and if he can play off ball. But with Haliburton, Deni, and Obi you didn't really see that same type of press. It's just as likely that teams had other guys higher on their board than Haliburton or the draft journalists over valued him compared to professional scouts. So like I said sometimes players drop for no reason.

[NewKnicks]

If we're talking about the Baylor guys I think i'm Butler > Mitchell. To clarify I like both but I think Butler's offensive game has a chance to grow a little more in the NBA to where he can be an impact guy both on and off the ball.... I'm not completely sold that Mitchell has enough of a bag with the ball in his hands at his age to be an effective combo guard. I think his best career path is to be more like Marcus Smart and less like the popular media comparison of Donovan Mitchell.

I like the Marcus Smart comparison with Mitchell. The big difference is Smart is bigger and has much better measurements. I think Smart's got like a 6'9 wingspan, and Mitchell's is on 6'5. That 4 inches is a really big deal in a league with the best athletes in the world.

If I draft Mitchell, I'm praying he turns out to be as good as Smart. I think that's the best you could hope for him.

If I could get him late in the draft, I'd consider it. But any higher than that I'm not sure you're getting value for the pick.

[NewKnicks]

Kofi just declared for the draft. I want him with our 2nd rd pick, even if we have to buy one. Will love to see what Thibs and KP can get out of him

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

As an Illini fan, I love me some Kofi. He's been a mini Shaq in college. Definitely worth a 2nd rounder, but because of his lack of shooting ability, it's going to be tough transition for him. Doesn't mean that he can't come in and eat some minutes as a banger inside and grab some boards.

Also, he's a really good kid and a hard worker. There won't be any drama with him either.

Yeah I’m really intrigued by his body type and his ability to move his feet, leaping ability and quick jump. Also, I like his timing on blocks. We need a big body that can dominate on the boards.

Glad you mentioned him being a good kid. From the few games I’ve watched, he does seem like a good teammate and he always look like he’s out working everyone.

I didn't mention it, but he does have advanced footwork for a player coming out of college. He really worked on his game year after year, and he's excelled around the basket, and has great timing as well.

Kofi is also a player that you could expect to work on his game and become a lot better as time goes on. He's already proved he can do it in college, so there is no reason to think with great NBA coaches that he can't continue to take his game to the next level.

If he can somehow improve his shooting out to 10-15ft. at least, he'll end up being a steal in the second round. But that's a big if.

[NewKnicks]

That's not entirely true. He could still tank his interviews or conversely he could show immense skill growth since the end of the season, in workouts...something I'm looking out for with Keon & Barnes...both of which could still push his stock in either direction.

I'm really curious to see what happens with Barnes' stock as we get closer. He seems to be holding steady at 6-10 on most mocks, and there are obvious reasons for that. A lot of posters on here are completely sold on Bouknight and others, but are 100% sure Barnes sucks and don't see what value he can offer at the next level. But NBA GM's disagree.

Before I get flamed again regarding Bouknight, I already said I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him. It's just hilarious that some posters on here are making fun of Barnes, and putting other players on pedestals as if they are better evaluators than NBA scouts.

I like Barnes as a prospect in general, but a) his fit next to Julius & Rowan is dubious, especially since b) Barnes ability to put the ball in the hoop at the next level is a huge question mark that could well decide whether he's the next Lamar Odom or Justice Winslow. And if we're going to roll the dice on a kid who isn't the finished product -- like I think we should -- it makes more sense to do it for a kid who'll complement our cornerstones if he hits...of which we should have a number of interesting options.

So it makes sense for our fanbase to be lower on Barnes than others.

I don't disagree, but drafting by need is a risky business. If Barnes turns out to be a star in the league, and the other players that are 'better fits' don't, we won't be caring about what position or role he plays. We'll wish we would have drafted him.

I'm not saying he's going to be a star, but he does have star potential. At worst, because of his playmaking ability and his dog mentality, he'll be a starter level player at the next level for years to come.

In the end, I hope the Knicks shoot for the moon on our picks, and don't draft on need alone. We need talent. It doesn't really matter what position he plays at this point.

Also, there is no reason he can't play alongside Randle. Barnes can guard 1-5, and like I said previously, is a playmaker with the ball, and has elite D potential. With the way Thibs likes to play, and with our D being as good as it is, I think he'd fit right in. We'd have a monster front court with RJ, Randle, Barnes and Mitch. Teams would need to adjust to us on a nightly basis. That would be a really fun roster.

I get the shooting aspect. No one knows if he'll continue to progress in this area, but he's really young. With the way we've developed RJ and Randle, the same could happen with Barnes.

[NewKnicks]

That's not entirely true. He could still tank his interviews or conversely he could show immense skill growth since the end of the season, in workouts...something I'm looking out for with Keon & Barnes...both of which could still push his stock in either direction.

I'm really curious to see what happens with Barnes' stock as we get closer. He seems to be holding steady at 6-10 on most mocks, and there are obvious reasons for that. A lot of posters on here are completely sold on Bouknight and others, but are 100% sure Barnes sucks and don't see what value he can offer at the next level. But NBA GM's disagree.

Before I get flamed again regarding Bouknight, I already said I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him. It's just hilarious that some posters on here are making fun of Barnes, and putting other players on pedestals as if they are better evaluators than NBA scouts.

I like Barnes as a prospect in general, but a) his fit next to Julius & Rowan is dubious, especially since b) Barnes ability to put the ball in the hoop at the next level is a huge question mark that could well decide whether he's the next Lamar Odom or Justice Winslow. And if we're going to roll the dice on a kid who isn't the finished product -- like I think we should -- it makes more sense to do it for a kid who'll complement our cornerstones if he hits...of which we should have a number of interesting options.

So it makes sense for our fanbase to be lower on Barnes than others.

I don't disagree, but drafting by need is a risky business. If Barnes turns out to be a star in the league, and the other players that are 'better fits' don't, we won't be caring about what position or role he plays. We'll wish we would have drafted him.

I'm not saying he's going to be a star, but he does have star potential. At worst, because of his playmaking ability and his dog mentality, he'll be a starter level player at the next level for years to come.

In the end, I hope the Knicks shoot for the moon on our picks, and don't draft on need alone. We need talent. It doesn't really matter what position he plays at this point.

Also, there is no reason he can't play alongside Randle. Barnes can guard 1-5, and like I said previously, is a playmaker with the ball, and has elite D potential. With the way Thibs likes to play, and with our D being as good as it is, I think he'd fit right in. We'd have a monster front court with RJ, Randle, Barnes and Mitch. Teams would need to adjust to us on a nightly basis. That would be a really fun roster.

The kid's measurables are off the charts as well. He's got a 7'2 wingspan. 7'2 at 6'9! That's only 2 inches shorter than 7'1 Evan Mobley's wingspan (7'4) Think about that for a minute..

I get the shooting aspect. No one knows if he'll continue to progress in this area, but he's really young. With the way we've developed RJ and Randle, the same could happen with Barnes.

[NewKnicks]

I'm just hoping we don't go with who Leon wants after how crazy he was for Obi last year and wanting to trade up for him. He was too blinded by a kid that was putting out showtime dunks to see how stiff he was/is and how bad defensively he was/is.

Leave the drafting to W.Perrin, F.Zanin, B.Aller and whoever else they trust.

How do you know that Perrin and the boys weren’t in on the Obi pick as well? Obi was considered a top 5 pick the entire draft process right up to draft night. He was pretty much loved by all the draft journalist too. Zach Lowe thought his offense was good enough to first overall. You probably wouldn’t be able to find any scout that thought his offense wouldn’t translate. It seems like they’ve all been wrong. Sometimes it happens.

The NY post article made it pretty clear that WWW was the one pushing Quickley but no info of any dissent about Obi. I don’t think there’s any evidence that to suggest that he wasn’t liked by everyone yet. Maybe in the future we’ll get a leak suggestion otherwise but right now Obi is on the whole front office.

Also the picture of Thibs celebrating right after the pick seems to indicate that's who he wanted too

Can't hit on every pick, and at the very least, we didn't miss out on a star after Obi (least not yet).

Can't hit on every pick, but it sure would be nice to hit on more than 3 out 4 lottery pick busts. Stop making excuses for the front office.

[NewKnicks]

How do you know that Perrin and the boys weren’t in on the Obi pick as well? Obi was considered a top 5 pick the entire draft process right up to draft night. He was pretty much loved by all the draft journalist too. Zach Lowe thought his offense was good enough to first overall. You probably wouldn’t be able to find any scout that thought his offense wouldn’t translate. It seems like they’ve all been wrong. Sometimes it happens.

The NY post article made it pretty clear that WWW was the one pushing Quickley but no info of any dissent about Obi. I don’t think there’s any evidence that to suggest that he wasn’t liked by everyone yet. Maybe in the future we’ll get a leak suggestion otherwise but right now Obi is on the whole front office.

Also the picture of Thibs celebrating right after the pick seems to indicate that's who he wanted too

Can't hit on every pick, and at the very least, we didn't miss out on a star after Obi (least not yet).

Also people keep forgetting how different last years draft process was cuz of the pandemic. You couldn’t meet with or work out a ton of guys. Does it really shock anyone that we went with the guy we had the most intel on?

I still wonder if the NCAA tournament happens, how much it would have really affected Obi’s stock. He was just okay against the good teams Dayton played last year and there coulda been a good chance of him getting exposed. I don’t want to write him off yet cuz Obi’s a late bloomer and since we had the bizarre offseason ever but we just need to hope with a more normal draft process the brain trust will do better.

I'd like to think we had a front office that could still make correct calls regardless of Covid bs. You should lift your expectations, don't you think?

What's with all the people (you included) making excuses about our less than stellar (to say the least) draft record? Don't you want a front office that's better than other front offices? Or are you cool with drafting 3 out 4 busts with our lottery picks?

[NewKnicks]

some gms overthink it and let good players drop. its not like some conspiracy theory. Gms and scouts miss on players all the time. happens to the best of them

More excuses for our poor drafting record.

[3toheadmelo]

some gms overthink it and let good players drop. its not like some conspiracy theory. Gms and scouts miss on players all the time. happens to the best of them

More excuses for our poor drafting record.

way to twist my whole post into something else. congratulations you did it again

[Gravy]

That's why I've mostly given up on tanking every year. Most of these guys are busts or rotation players at best. We only remember the guy that became good not all the other players that were just as hyped at the time. Right now no one is the obvious pick in our range but a year from now everyone will be saying we should have picked X like they knew all along lol.

Our worst F up was the Knox draft though, MPjr, SGA, Mikal and Miles were all available and much better than who we took.

[cgf]

I'm really curious to see what happens with Barnes' stock as we get closer. He seems to be holding steady at 6-10 on most mocks, and there are obvious reasons for that. A lot of posters on here are completely sold on Bouknight and others, but are 100% sure Barnes sucks and don't see what value he can offer at the next level. But NBA GM's disagree.

Before I get flamed again regarding Bouknight, I already said I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him. It's just hilarious that some posters on here are making fun of Barnes, and putting other players on pedestals as if they are better evaluators than NBA scouts.

I like Barnes as a prospect in general, but a) his fit next to Julius & Rowan is dubious, especially since b) Barnes ability to put the ball in the hoop at the next level is a huge question mark that could well decide whether he's the next Lamar Odom or Justice Winslow. And if we're going to roll the dice on a kid who isn't the finished product -- like I think we should -- it makes more sense to do it for a kid who'll complement our cornerstones if he hits...of which we should have a number of interesting options.

So it makes sense for our fanbase to be lower on Barnes than others.

I don't disagree, but drafting by need is a risky business. If Barnes turns out to be a star in the league, and the other players that are 'better fits' don't, we won't be caring about what position or role he plays. We'll wish we would have drafted him.

I'm not saying he's going to be a star, but he does have star potential. At worst, because of his playmaking ability and his dog mentality, he'll be a starter level player at the next level for years to come.

In the end, I hope the Knicks shoot for the moon on our picks, and don't draft on need alone. We need talent. It doesn't really matter what position he plays at this point.

Also, there is no reason he can't play alongside Randle. Barnes can guard 1-5, and like I said previously, is a playmaker with the ball, and has elite D potential. With the way Thibs likes to play, and with our D being as good as it is, I think he'd fit right in. We'd have a monster front court with RJ, Randle, Barnes and Mitch. Teams would need to adjust to us on a nightly basis. That would be a really fun roster.

The kid's measurables are off the charts as well. He's got a 7'2 wingspan. 7'2 at 6'9! That's only 2 inches shorter than 7'1 Evan Mobley's wingspan (7'4) Think about that for a minute..

I get the shooting aspect. No one knows if he'll continue to progress in this area, but he's really young. With the way we've developed RJ and Randle, the same could happen with Barnes.

Less about drafting for need and more about drafting with a plan/the future in mind. RJ & Julius have both grown massively as shooters, but both are slashers at heart who have built their games out to now include highend shooting. Which is why I would like any wing we paired with them to be a player whose offensive game was built from the outside-in, to create a better natural balance to where & how they operate on that end of the court.

That's where Barnes' fit is the most questionable for me and why I wouldn't be all that bummed if we didn't get a chance at him but could snag Moody/Ziaire/Bouknight & Butler, instead...even if Barnes went on to become the best player of the lot.

E:
Also worth remembering that just because some kids are able to make huge progress with our team, that doesn't mean all kids will be able to make similar leaps in that area. I'm an Avs fan in hockey and at the start of their post-Golden Age rebuild they had a lot of success with improving the skating of prospects for whom that was their biggest question mark...and skating, like shooting in basketball, is probably the most-teachable skill in hockey; one that prospects make huge improvements with all the time. But the avs let their success with improving kids skating get to their heads and ended up wasting a lot of draft picks on kids whose skating they were confident they could fix, but who just never could make those same huge strides no matter how hard they worked at it.

[NewKnicks]

I'm really curious to see what happens with Barnes' stock as we get closer. He seems to be holding steady at 6-10 on most mocks, and there are obvious reasons for that. A lot of posters on here are completely sold on Bouknight and others, but are 100% sure Barnes sucks and don't see what value he can offer at the next level. But NBA GM's disagree.

Before I get flamed again regarding Bouknight, I already said I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him. It's just hilarious that some posters on here are making fun of Barnes, and putting other players on pedestals as if they are better evaluators than NBA scouts.

I like Barnes as a prospect in general, but a) his fit next to Julius & Rowan is dubious, especially since b) Barnes ability to put the ball in the hoop at the next level is a huge question mark that could well decide whether he's the next Lamar Odom or Justice Winslow. And if we're going to roll the dice on a kid who isn't the finished product -- like I think we should -- it makes more sense to do it for a kid who'll complement our cornerstones if he hits...of which we should have a number of interesting options.

So it makes sense for our fanbase to be lower on Barnes than others.

I don't disagree, but drafting by need is a risky business. If Barnes turns out to be a star in the league, and the other players that are 'better fits' don't, we won't be caring about what position or role he plays. We'll wish we would have drafted him.

I'm not saying he's going to be a star, but he does have star potential. At worst, because of his playmaking ability and his dog mentality, he'll be a starter level player at the next level for years to come.

In the end, I hope the Knicks shoot for the moon on our picks, and don't draft on need alone. We need talent. It doesn't really matter what position he plays at this point.

Also, there is no reason he can't play alongside Randle. Barnes can guard 1-5, and like I said previously, is a playmaker with the ball, and has elite D potential. With the way Thibs likes to play, and with our D being as good as it is, I think he'd fit right in. We'd have a monster front court with RJ, Randle, Barnes and Mitch. Teams would need to adjust to us on a nightly basis. That would be a really fun roster.

I get the shooting aspect. No one knows if he'll continue to progress in this area, but he's really young. With the way we've developed RJ and Randle, the same could happen with Barnes.

I'm going to create a roster for the fun of it..

Lonzo (Ayo Dosunmo or Sharife). There's a chance either of those two fall out of the first round.
Burks/Bouknight?
RJ/Bullock/Barnes
PF Randle/Barnes
C Mitch/Noel/Kofi?

Damn that would be a killer roster, if we could figure out the PG situation. Obviously that's the biggest hole by far. But we would have a monster front court that would tough for teams to deal with. Plus, we'd add an elite defender in Barnes, and a good potential backup big with Kofi

If we could somehow land BOTH Barnes and Bouknight in the 1st, and then Ayo/Sharife and Kofi in the second, I'd be the happiest Knick fan alive.

[knickstape4ever]

I like Trey Murphy as a 3 and D guy. Reminds me of Deandre Hunter.

I like Trey a lot. ideal stretch-4

[knickstape4ever]

Because of all these wins, we're not even going to have a shot at getting Bouknight anymore, unless he slides during the draft. And if he slides, then you have to question what type of player he's really going to be in the NBA, anyway.

he's #19 on ESPN, #23 by Wasserman

it's possible we have a shot at him, but regardless, I'd even trade up for him

Aren't you concerned a bit that he's sliding that far? I'm not crazy about him, but I do think he's lottery material at the bare minimum.

What are your thoughts on why he's moving down as we get closer to the draft?

By the way, I agree with you. If he slides to us, I'm good with taking a shot on him.

I'm not concerned about other peoples rankings because it doesn't change how I feel about Bouknight; I still see a talented 3-level scorer who can shoot off the dribble, has an elite hesitation move, and is very athletic

As for why he's moving down, it's weird to me b/c right after he came back from injury he actually moved up into the top 10 on ESPN and Wassermans boards. he ended the season w/ a few bad shooting games (1 in the tourney) and scouts are now picking apart his playmaking

[Celo]

Spoiler:

I like Barnes as a prospect in general, but a) his fit next to Julius & Rowan is dubious, especially since b) Barnes ability to put the ball in the hoop at the next level is a huge question mark that could well decide whether he's the next Lamar Odom or Justice Winslow. And if we're going to roll the dice on a kid who isn't the finished product -- like I think we should -- it makes more sense to do it for a kid who'll complement our cornerstones if he hits...of which we should have a number of interesting options.

So it makes sense for our fanbase to be lower on Barnes than others.

I don't disagree, but drafting by need is a risky business. If Barnes turns out to be a star in the league, and the other players that are 'better fits' don't, we won't be caring about what position or role he plays. We'll wish we would have drafted him.

I'm not saying he's going to be a star, but he does have star potential. At worst, because of his playmaking ability and his dog mentality, he'll be a starter level player at the next level for years to come.

In the end, I hope the Knicks shoot for the moon on our picks, and don't draft on need alone. We need talent. It doesn't really matter what position he plays at this point.

Also, there is no reason he can't play alongside Randle. Barnes can guard 1-5, and like I said previously, is a playmaker with the ball, and has elite D potential. With the way Thibs likes to play, and with our D being as good as it is, I think he'd fit right in. We'd have a monster front court with RJ, Randle, Barnes and Mitch. Teams would need to adjust to us on a nightly basis. That would be a really fun roster.

I get the shooting aspect. No one knows if he'll continue to progress in this area, but he's really young. With the way we've developed RJ and Randle, the same could happen with Barnes.

I'm going to create a roster for the fun of it..

Lonzo (Ayo Dosunmo or Sharife). There's a chance either of those two fall out of the first round.
Burks/Bouknight?
RJ/Bullock/Barnes
PF Randle/Barnes
C Mitch/Noel/Kofi?

Damn that would be a killer roster, if we could figure out the PG situation. Obviously that's the biggest hole by far. But we would have a monster front court that would tough for teams to deal with. Plus, we'd add an elite defender in Barnes, and a good potential backup big with Kofi

If we could somehow land BOTH Barnes and Bouknight in the 1st, and then Ayo/Sharife and Kofi in the second, I'd be the happiest Knick fan alive.

So you want us drafting a better playmaking 6'9 Frank, a better passing midget-version of Elfrid Payton and a Center archetype that is comparable to Myspace - outdated in today's world. That's literally the worst draft I could imagine lol. But count me in on Bouknight. Looking at most mocks/big boards he could actually be available when we draft.

[knickstape4ever]

That's why I've mostly given up on tanking every year. Most of these guys are busts or rotation players at best. We only remember the guy that became good not all the other players that were just as hyped at the time. Right now no one is the obvious pick in our range but a year from now everyone will be saying we should have picked X like they knew all along lol.

Our worst F up was the Knox draft though, MPjr, SGA, Mikal and Miles were all available and much better than who we took.

most of the guys in the range (8ish) we draft usually bust or become role players at best. I think that's likely because those are prospects that are considered "high upside" who tend to carry more risk than others

the hit rate in the range our picks are currently is no bueno, which is why I'd move up (and use Obi to do so) to late lotto

hit rate for top 5 picks is pretty good...the #3 pick lately has been incredible: Ball, RJ, Luka, Tatum, Brown

[knickstape4ever]

Watch on YouTube

I like this kid. good size, potential multi-position defender and was excellent spotting up

[cgf]

Spoiler:

I don't disagree, but drafting by need is a risky business. If Barnes turns out to be a star in the league, and the other players that are 'better fits' don't, we won't be caring about what position or role he plays. We'll wish we would have drafted him.

I'm not saying he's going to be a star, but he does have star potential. At worst, because of his playmaking ability and his dog mentality, he'll be a starter level player at the next level for years to come.

In the end, I hope the Knicks shoot for the moon on our picks, and don't draft on need alone. We need talent. It doesn't really matter what position he plays at this point.

Also, there is no reason he can't play alongside Randle. Barnes can guard 1-5, and like I said previously, is a playmaker with the ball, and has elite D potential. With the way Thibs likes to play, and with our D being as good as it is, I think he'd fit right in. We'd have a monster front court with RJ, Randle, Barnes and Mitch. Teams would need to adjust to us on a nightly basis. That would be a really fun roster.

I get the shooting aspect. No one knows if he'll continue to progress in this area, but he's really young. With the way we've developed RJ and Randle, the same could happen with Barnes.

I'm going to create a roster for the fun of it..

Lonzo (Ayo Dosunmo or Sharife). There's a chance either of those two fall out of the first round.
Burks/Bouknight?
RJ/Bullock/Barnes
PF Randle/Barnes
C Mitch/Noel/Kofi?

Damn that would be a killer roster, if we could figure out the PG situation. Obviously that's the biggest hole by far. But we would have a monster front court that would tough for teams to deal with. Plus, we'd add an elite defender in Barnes, and a good potential backup big with Kofi

If we could somehow land BOTH Barnes and Bouknight in the 1st, and then Ayo/Sharife and Kofi in the second, I'd be the happiest Knick fan alive.

So you want us drafting a better playmaking 6'9 Frank, a better passing midget-version of Elfrid Payton and a Center archetype that is comparable to Myspace - outdated in today's world. That's literally the worst draft I could imagine lol. But count me in on Bouknight. Looking at most mocks/big boards he could actually be available when we draft.

If you could guarantee that Barnes would learn to shoot 3s as well as Frank has, I think he would crack the top 5.

[Gravy]

That's why I've mostly given up on tanking every year. Most of these guys are busts or rotation players at best. We only remember the guy that became good not all the other players that were just as hyped at the time. Right now no one is the obvious pick in our range but a year from now everyone will be saying we should have picked X like they knew all along lol.

Our worst F up was the Knox draft though, MPjr, SGA, Mikal and Miles were all available and much better than who we took.

most of the guys in the range (8ish) we draft usually bust or become role players at best. I think that's likely because those are prospects that are considered "high upside" who tend to carry more risk than others

the hit rate in the range our picks are currently is no bueno, which is why I'd move up (and use Obi to do so) to late lotto

hit rate for top 5 picks is pretty good...the #3 pick lately has been incredible: Ball, RJ, Luka, Tatum, Brown

Yeah, it depends who they like. Its possible they like someone already in range over guys several spots higher.