How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s

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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#161 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:43 pm

camby23 wrote:
bisme37 wrote:Good info but I don't know why it's directed at MJ rather than just being a primer on the league and salary cap at that time. MJ didn't face superteams but he also wasn't on a superteam. And other players were also not on or playing against superteams. So there was no superteam-related competitive advantage or disadvantage for MJ or anyone else.


Bulls was a superteam for 90s standards.


Only because Jordan was that good. Other teams had multiple stars too. The difference is Jordan was better than their best players.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#162 » by Onlytimewilltel » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:46 pm

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:There's only been 3 superteams in NBA history.

The Heatles, the KD+Curry Warriors and now the Nets.

You need multiple superstars with at least 1 all-star.

The Bulls were a very good team with a good/great supporting cast behind MJ, but Pippen is no superstar.


:lol:
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#163 » by alebaba » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:06 pm

Jordan team look like a super team because Jordan was that good at scoring the ball. Nobody ever said Jordan team was a super team until Lefraud brought it up.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#164 » by TheGOATRises007 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:09 pm

Onlytimewilltel wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:There's only been 3 superteams in NBA history.

The Heatles, the KD+Curry Warriors and now the Nets.

You need multiple superstars with at least 1 all-star.

The Bulls were a very good team with a good/great supporting cast behind MJ, but Pippen is no superstar.


:lol:


I don't see what's funny?
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#165 » by Jkam31 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:29 pm

Lebron is bitch made
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#166 » by DCasey91 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:43 pm

Petergrifindor wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
Petergrifindor wrote:
You have to read more carefully


What did I misread?


Contenders doesn't mean a win for sure team, it means one among the favorites. And the sign "/" was intended to make you choose one or the other, which should be clear since we were talking about removing a team best player (as in a single 1).

And the Heatles in 2010 would have been for sure my beat to be on the Finals from the east. And the way the 2010 finals went, maybe they would have done even better. Obviously if you take the washed Wade years, not a chance, but that was not the point.


If your remove James (Single best player) Celtics and the Lakers both would have their number. Both teams were legit great. That’s actually my biggest knock on Garnett’s overall legacy for me. A true big 4 with Peak Rondo (End of 08 to 12’ the man was problem actually was more important wise in the big 3 ranking) and other ATG’s at that age (33) would have done more (scoring wise), people here theorycraft too much with him. It’s a fact you need a 20+ ppg scorer next to him, just how it is. On the Ranking top 100 he was getting traction around 5 I could not believe that.


It’s pretty exhaustive that 90’s was a watered down era by lower tier records of teams. You could argue 80’s was weak but Showtime & Bird Celtics supersedes the top end by a mile. Bulls never ran into one let alone two ATG teams in NBA history no dynasty’s to vs in the 90’s. Heck the Pistons were legit too (B2B winners 89-90).
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#167 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:04 pm

Pg81 wrote:
RSP83 wrote:
ciueli wrote:
So Jordan now gets the credit for turning Pippen into a star? And he's somehow the coach of the Bulls too? No credit for the front office that made decisions Jordan disagreed with (trading Charles Oakley for the pick they used to draft Pippen) or Phil Jackson (in spite of him having more rings than fingers to put them on)?


Wow. Pippen better than Kawhi? You do know that Kawhi lead the Toronto Raptors to championship? Hit a game 7 buzzer beater to advance his team to the Finals.

Credit to Pippen for keeping that 55 win Bulls team going post-MJ retirement, he was super motivated to show that he was not just MJ's sidekick. But in the playoff and the next season (below .500) it's proven that Pippen just didn't have it mentally to sustain his level of play as the number 1 guy for the long haul. Pippen is a great player and definitely one of the most unique player among HoF-ers, but no, Kawhi is a legit franchise player, and Pippen is not.

Pippen used to be underrated, but lately I think he's being overrated by many people. And people often bring up Bulls 94's 55-win season, which I think is not enough to assess Pippen's rank among greats.

:crazy:


Kawhi is closer to Jordan than Pippen in terms of impact. Pippen was nowhere near the offensive threat that Kawhi is.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#168 » by GiannisAnte34 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:54 pm

another "poor LeBron" thread even tho he has had a ridiculous amount of star teammates
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#169 » by LakerLegend » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:29 am

The 90's Bulls got a little lucky too.


1991, Worthy injures his ankle against Portland in the playoffs, comes in hobbled into the Finals. With their second best player Worthy slowed, on top of losing him in top health the Laker were further incumbered because the Bulls were able to slide Pippen onto Magic, who was making short work of Jordan when guarded by him but had more trouble with Pippen(though make no mistake, Magic consistently got by Pippen but was swarmed by the Bulls team D). A healthy Worthy prevents this because Pippen has to stay on him. Byron Scott also got injured later in the series. Although the series went 5 games, it was very competitive and might have been a different series if Worthy was healthy. Also keep in mind, this wasn’t Prime Magic. He’d been in the league since he was 20 and had played as many playoff games at this point as Jordan would in his entire career. He was still great, but his knees were shot compared to what he was athletically a few years earlier. Give the Lakers a Peak Magic, healthy Worthy and Scott and who knows?

1992. I don’t really have anything to say about this year, the Bulls were one of the best teams ever and still got really tough series from the Blazers and Knicks. Actually, I do have something to say which you will see below.

1993, the Suns lose Cedric Ceballos in the Western playoffs, a key rotation player and offensive contributor. Again, another very competitive series where having Ceballos might have been enough to tip the balance. Ceballos dropped 27 points in the Suns regular season win at Chicago, and was generally pretty effective player against them. I think this series is a 7 game toss up with a healthy Ceballos.

1996. The Magic beat the Bulls in 1995, regardless of Jordan being “rusty”(Keep in mind Jordan still put up better numbers in those playoffs than he did in 96/96/98), a key reason being that the Bulls didn’t have the services of a Horace Grant or Rodman to crash the boards and play defense downlow. Flash forward to 1996, and Horace Grant comes into the series with a bad elbow, and is forced to sit almost the entire series. He was the Magic’s 3rd best player, and for all the talk of revenge the Magic played them well in the regular season. The Bulls most likely still win, but a healthy Grant makes it a 6 or 7 game series.

1997: The Bulls may have avoided 2 of their biggest challenges this season in the Rockets/Knicks. The Rockets and Bulls exchanged blowout wins in the regular season, the Rockets also had I believe the best or second best winning percentage in the league when all 3 of their stars were healthy. There was a lot of talk then about how they may have been a tougher matchup for the Bulls than the Jazz. In all fairness the Jazz beat the Rockets fair and square, but the Rockets may have been a tougher matchup for the Bulls. There’s been some who thought(some of the players on the team who’s names have been lost to time) that the 97 Knicks were the best of the 90’s Knicks teams and that would have been their best shot against the Bulls. They were up 3-1 against the Heat and the huge brawl in the middle of the series resulted in key suspensions which led to them losing the series. They most likely would have given the Bulls a much better playoff series.

1998: See below. The Bulls gutted out a great championship but were obviously a step below the previous teams. Teams they faced in earlier Finals like the Lakers, Blazers, Suns, and Sonics(not to mention the 92/93 Knicks) may have all beaten this years Bulls in a series matchup.

Short 3 point line: The short 3 point line really boosted the 96 and 97 Bulls by turning both Jordan and Pippen into pretty solid 3 point sharpshooters. It’s not just about hitting more of them at a better clip, but about it helping to open up your whole game. Undoubtedly, it made guarding Jordan tougher because now teams had to really respect his 3 point shot, opening up all possibilities for his game like easier driving lanes. Jordan made as many 3’s in those short years I believe as he did in the rest of his career, this really helped prolong his effectiveness as he aged. I don’t think the 96 and 97 Bulls teams are as dominant with the real 3 point line, period.

Now think about this. The two series the Bulls played that went 7 games were in 92 against the Knicks and 98 against the Pacers. Reggie and Ewing were both great players, but a step(In Reggie’s case a significant step) below tier 1 greats. I'm not even talking about guys like Duncan or Magic, but below guys like Barkley, D-Rob, or in Reggie's case even a Ray Allen or Paul Pierce.

What happens if you swap Ewing with Shaq or Olajuwon? Reggie with Kobe or Curry? Good chance the Bulls lose those series. Or let’s take it a step further, give both those teams better second options along the lines of most legit contenders. Jalen Rose, Mark Jackson, Starks, McDaniel? Good players, not great players. The Bulls faced great teams and players in their 90’s runs, but the two teams who took them to 7 games could have easily beaten them if given a star player of top 5-10(yearly) caliber.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#170 » by twyzted » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:46 am

ty 4191 wrote:
twyzted wrote:
Also its not teams were losing there best players in the expansion draft they could protect top 8 and could only lose 1 player per draft so in 88 and 89 a team at worst lost 2 end of bench players.


The 6 Expansion Teams' cumulative winning percentage 1989-1998 was .364.

Real winners, of course!!! including 2 teams under ..300 overalll!!!


Ok why are you quoting me? You are not addressing anything i mention :lol:
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#171 » by Pg81 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:11 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Pg81 wrote:
RSP83 wrote:
Wow. Pippen better than Kawhi? You do know that Kawhi lead the Toronto Raptors to championship? Hit a game 7 buzzer beater to advance his team to the Finals.

Credit to Pippen for keeping that 55 win Bulls team going post-MJ retirement, he was super motivated to show that he was not just MJ's sidekick. But in the playoff and the next season (below .500) it's proven that Pippen just didn't have it mentally to sustain his level of play as the number 1 guy for the long haul. Pippen is a great player and definitely one of the most unique player among HoF-ers, but no, Kawhi is a legit franchise player, and Pippen is not.

Pippen used to be underrated, but lately I think he's being overrated by many people. And people often bring up Bulls 94's 55-win season, which I think is not enough to assess Pippen's rank among greats.

:crazy:


Kawhi is closer to Jordan than Pippen in terms of impact. Pippen was nowhere near the offensive threat that Kawhi is.

:roll:
That has nothing to do with why I rated the post the way I did.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#172 » by TimRobbins » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:21 pm

Petergrifindor wrote:
TimRobbins wrote:
camby23 wrote:
Bulls was a superteam for 90s standards.


Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman.

Biggest super-team ever assembled to date.


Hell no.

With other modern superteams if you just quit the best player the team would still be a contender.

Pippen Rodman Kukoc doesn't go anywhere on their own.


Pippen/Kukoc were once shot away from winning the East. I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#173 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:54 pm

Pg81 wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Pg81 wrote: :crazy:


Kawhi is closer to Jordan than Pippen in terms of impact. Pippen was nowhere near the offensive threat that Kawhi is.

:roll:
That has nothing to do with why I rated the post the way I did.

People aren't mind readers. Perhaps you should include some actual substance rather than your trademark :crazy: empty posting
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#174 » by Pg81 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:36 pm

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:
Pg81 wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Kawhi is closer to Jordan than Pippen in terms of impact. Pippen was nowhere near the offensive threat that Kawhi is.

:roll:
That has nothing to do with why I rated the post the way I did.

People aren't mind readers. Perhaps you should include some actual substance rather than your trademark :crazy: empty posting


Why would I do that when the post I use my trademark on is entire devoid of substance or a valid argument? Even better why should I care when I have been saying the same things over and over only to read the same old debunked nonsense from ignorant posters over and over again and again? :roll:
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#175 » by Petergrifindor » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:50 pm

TimRobbins wrote:
Pippen/Kukoc were once shot away from winning the East. I have no idea what you're talking about.


You mean that YOU have not idea what you are talking about.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#176 » by TimRobbins » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:59 pm

Petergrifindor wrote:
TimRobbins wrote:
Pippen/Kukoc were once shot away from winning the East. I have no idea what you're talking about.


You mean that YOU have not idea what you are talking about.


I meant ECF.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1994-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-knicks.html

There is no single "super-team" in this era that goes this far without its best player.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#177 » by Petergrifindor » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:08 pm

TimRobbins wrote:I meant ECF.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1994-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-knicks.html

There is no single "super-team" in this era that goes this far without its best player.


Yeah you didn't meant wining the East, and you didn't meant one shot either. So basically in the end your argument is that no superteam in this era could get to lose a seventh game in the second round without the best player... :roll:

But hey, the Warriors did win the ring, and reach the finals without Kevin Durant who joined later, so for them it was possible. And the Nets this year should be more than able to make abetter run than a second round exit without one of the superstars.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#178 » by Bergmaniac » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:05 pm

The insecurity of the Jordan fanboys will always be hilarious.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#179 » by sunsbg » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:58 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:The insecurity of the Jordan fanboys will always be hilarious.


Because Jordan fanboys created this thread. :lol:

There were no artificially created superteams during the 90s, that's true. Maybe the Rockets with Barkley and Pippen, but they were past their prime.
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Re: How NBA rules prevented Michael Jordan's Bulls from facing superteams in the 1990s 

Post#180 » by VanWest82 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:39 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:The insecurity of the Jordan fanboys will always be hilarious.


I find it humorous and ironic when people say this. There have been countless threads over the last half decade on here hammering away at MJ's legacy with few in opposition, often made by Lebron supporters with the ulterior motive of providing an explanation/defense of some perceived Lebron shortcoming or criticism.

Jordan fanboys - mostly guys in their 40s and 50s with jobs and families and better things to do - eventually show up to point out the hypocrisy and correct all the misinformation flooding the threads, leading to someone attempting to use that as proof of their insecurity. It's projection combined with an inability to give someone their proper due, and it fits perfectly in today's postmodern culture that eschews facts for perception, argumentation, and power games.

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