[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Bucks

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Bucks franchise history.

As Milwaukee Bucks from 1968-69 to today

Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.

- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.

Spoiler:

Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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Spoiler:

Post #2 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:18 pm

1. '70-71 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - the year the dreams came true

2. '18-19 Giannis Antetokounmpo - debatable with '19-20, but '18-19 certainly felt like more of a "win".

3. '00-01 Ray Allen - monstrously underrated at the time

4. '83-84 Sidney Moncrief - not sure if this is the right year to pick, also could see an argument above Ray.

5. '80-81 Marques Johnson - he was a beast

Odinn21 · Post #3 » by **Odinn21** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:19 pm

1. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
The only question is if it's 1971 or 1974. I have 1974 version as the better between the two, so.

2. 2019 Giannis Antetokounmpo
He was better until the bubble in 2020. But he and the entire Bucks were like an entirely different team and I find Giannis' performance against the Heat in '20 more problematic than his performance against the Raptors in '19.

3. 1981 Marques Johnson
4. 2001 Ray Allen
5. 1985 Sidney Moncrief
This is almost a bloodbath. It is quite difficult for me to rank these players.
Between Marques and Ray, I feel like Marques is too versatile and too complete for Allen's game.
Between Marques and Squid, despite Squid being arguably more impactful he did not have the offensive output Marques had and I think the gap on there is bigger.
Between Ray and Squid, they excel at one part of the game and if we look at box metrics, with his defensive quality, Squid looks like he must be the better player here. But Ray was quite impactful on offense. In that particular season, he was smidge below Shaquille O'Neal in impact metrics. Maybe I'm putting Squid at fault for not having available impact metrics but I've always been quite high on Ray's single season peak.
With all the things I said, I can change the order between them at a whim. I just mentioned tiebreakers for me. They're insanely close IMHO.

sansterre · Post #4 » by **sansterre** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:30 pm

1. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - It's really a question of how much you value the postseason. His Win Shares are way higher in '71, but his playoff performance in the '74 playoffs was on another level.

2. 2019 Giannis Antetokounmpo - A pretty clear runner-up. You could argue that he was better in the playoffs in '20, but he also struggled with injuries and missed most of the Bucks' elimination games in the second round. 2019 seems a better bet.

3. 2001 Ray Allen - Honestly considered him at #2 except that the metrics almost certainly underrate Giannis' defensive impact. Allen has the 3rd highest Win Shares and 3rd highest VORP in Bucks' history, and saw his OBPM jump by 2.6 as he led the Bucks all the way to the Conference Finals. A seriously underrated year.

--Massive drop-off here, and I wrestled about it seriously--

4. 1981 Marques Johnson - A little lower than '71 Oscar in Win Shares, and his VORP is comparable to Redd's 2006 and Moncrief's 1985. But in the playoffs (the Bucks got seeded against the Sixers in the semifinals, and this was before the first round was a thing) Marques Johnson went crazy. He put up 25% usage and +4.6% shooting, but he also pulled down *six* offensive boards a game against Dawkins, Bobby Jones and Caldwell Jones. It was a ridiculous +6.0 OBPM bump in the postseason (small sample size) and that gets him the spot for me.

5. 1971 Oscar Robertson - It was between Oscar and the 2006 Michael Redd season (worth a look, with outstanding postseason shooting in limited games). But it's hard to choose against Oscar for all-around contribution, even if he didn't particularly shine in the playoffs and played with a seriously loaded roster. I feel like this is a cop-out, but I don't feel too bad about it.

Hardest cuts: 1985 Moncrief (who would get the spot over Oscar for defense) and 2006 Redd (for playoff shooting). And honestly, I could be talked into '85 Moncrief over '71 Oscar if anyone's motivated.

Dr Positivity · Post #5 » by **Dr Positivity** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:11 pm

1. Kareem 1971
2. Giannis 2019

Pretty easy top 2

3. Moncrief 1983 - He has more elite defense than the other candidates while still being good on offense. In 83 he is 4th in MVP, 1st team All NBA and 4th MVP with .301 shares

4. Oscar 1971 - I rate him here not only because he is legitimately an elite player still (stats and accolades point towards around 6th in the league) but also had a very strong intangible impact on one of the best teams in history. I'm not even a believer in the missed games shoddy +/- stuff either.

5. Marques 1981 - Elite advanced stats, I'm giving it the edge over his peak scoring season as he did it on a much better team that he was the clear leader of.

Allen is great but always a second tier star to me.

HeartBreakKid · Post #6 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:33 pm

sansterre wrote:
2. 2019 Giannis Antetokounmpo - A pretty clear runner-up. You could argue that he was better in the playoffs in '20, but he also missed a lot of time. 2019 seems a better bet.

Did he? He played in a shorten season. It doesn't seem like a lot of time compared to the 72 games he played in 2019.

sansterre · Post #7 » by **sansterre** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:36 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
sansterre wrote:
2. 2019 Giannis Antetokounmpo - A pretty clear runner-up. You could argue that he was better in the playoffs in '20, but he also missed a lot of time. 2019 seems a better bet.

Did he? He played in a shorten season. It doesn't seem like a lot of time compared to the 72 games he played in 2019.

I'm talking about his playoffs in 2020, forgive me for being unclear. I'm basically holding him missing Game 5 and most of Game 4 against him in favor of 2019. On a per-game basis he certainly looked better in 2020, I just leaned against the playoffs where he missed time and his team exited early and roughly. I can certainly understand favoring 2020.

Dutchball97 · Post #8 » by **Dutchball97** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:52 pm

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1970/71 - 74 is also a good choice but I think the regular season advantage of 71 over 74 is more noticeable than the difference between quality of the 74 post-season vs the 71 post-season. Besides the year, this shouldn't be a difficult pick.

2. Giannis Antetokounmpo, 2019/20 - Either of his MVP seasons are fine here. I definitely understand going for 18/19 here but for me his 19/20 season barely wins out.

3. Ray Allen, 2000/01 - Another clear choice and this time even without having to pick a year.

4. Marques Johnson, 1980/81 - Initially didn't think I'd vote for him as I'm not as impressed with his career overall but this season stands out as a really strong performance.

5. Sidney Moncrief, 1984/85 - Really thought about Oscar here. I feel like the level of play was similar between 71 Oscar and 85 Moncrief but the tiebreaker for me is Moncrief being more important to his team overall. Shoutout to Paul Pressey as well but I'd have a hard time arguing him over either of Oscar or Moncrief.

Odinn21 · Post #9 » by **Odinn21** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:02 pm

TBH, I was looking at players who were centrepiece of the Bucks and '71 Oscar Robertson slipped my mind. Though I'm not quite sure where to have him. I'm very fond of his play and level in 1970-71 season. His impact definitely exceeded his box numbers which were down compared to his usual prime numbers, but his impact was definitely there.

The issue here is that I can not totally disregard scoring volume. One of the reasons why I had Marques as the best of Marques/Ray/Squid trio is that Marques basically matched Dr. J's production. In 1981 Sixers-Bucks series;
Marques had 24.7 ppg 9.4 rpg 4.9 apg 1.4 spg 1.4 bpg and 1.9 tpg series on +7.5 rts
Erving had 24.7 ppg 9.4 rpg 1.9 apg 1.4 spg 2.9 bpg and 1.7 tpg series on +2.7 rts

In the 4 games I saw of that series, despite Erving's massive block numbers, Marques was also the better defender. That's a player who legit went toe to toe with the MVP of the regular season. It's not just 1 series though. I attribute majority of that +7.1 SRS the Bucks had (only 2nd to the Sixers) to Marques in that season. It was not the Bucks of the mid '80s with Squid, Pressey and Cummings.

Is Oscar's impact worth more than Marques/Ray/Squid's more productive plays?

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I know WS numbers are far from good. Just a thought about these 4 players.

1971 Oscar Robertson; 12.4 ws on a 67.5 ws team total in reg. season (18.4%)
1981 Marques Johnson; 11.2 ws on a 57.8 ws team total in reg. season (19.4%)
1985 Sidney Moncrief; 11.2 ws on a 57.9 ws team total in reg. season (19.3%)
2001 Walter Ray Allen; 13.7 ws on a 54.0 ws team total in reg. season (25.4%)

1971 Oscar Robertson; 2.3 ws on a 13.2 ws team total in playoffs (17.4%)
1981 Marques Johnson; 1.4 ws on a 4.0 ws team total in playoffs (35.0%)
1985 Sidney Moncrief; 1.4 ws on a 3.3 ws team total in playoffs (42.4%)
2001 Walter Ray Allen; 3.6 ws on a 10.8 ws team total in playoffs (33.3%)

As contribution to team success, Robertson looks like a step below. Then again his impact is undersold in box numbers though.

HeartBreakKid · Post #10 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:25 pm

1) 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabar - His playoff numbers are just better, and he went just as deep in the post season as 71.

2) 2020 Giannis Antetokounmpo - I suppose missing a game during the post season can be a big deal, but for those pegging him for "inferior play" to 2019.....that's a hard take for me to swallow. For one, Giannis didn't even play that poorly, and two there is no way the 2019 version would do better in that situation. There is an incredibly large sample size, including both the RS and PS that pretty much shows Giannis had gotten better from the previous year.

3) 1971 Oscar Robertson - I'm not positive about Oscar going here. But from what I've seen the way he controls the game seems pretty masterful. He doesn't have the biggest stats, but he's an all time great floor general, ala Chris Paul in the 2021 season. I see his PPG drop off more due to him playing on a team with better scorers than the dread he was in on the 1970 Royals. I feel like his playmaking and control of the game may be slightly more useful on offense than Ray Allen's shooting and his gigantic scoring advantage.

4) 2001 Ray Allen - He has the best offensive numbers outside of the MVP bucks. Crazy efficient, great range, can make plays for others, low turnovers. I might be selling him short putting him behind Oscar.

5) 1981 Marques Johnson - I put Marques behind Ray Allen because I'm not sure if Marques defense is so impactful that it wouldn't be worth taking a clearly superior offensive player in Ray Allen (or Oscar Robertson). Marques did have great production, but Ray Allen's seems a bit better all around. As for Marques vs Sidney Moncrief, I'm not sure if Sidney's defense is a bit blown out of proportion - if he's a Tony Allen level defender type of guy then I would likely change my opinion and Squid would go up over Marques (and Allen, possibly Oscar as well). We don't have any impact stats to measure Squid's defense, and the eye test doesn't look mega convincing.

Hopefully I'll have time to watch some Squid games to get a better idea of how impactful his defense is.

Jaivl · Post #11 » by **Jaivl** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:27 pm

1. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (+6.25)
Easy number one, only the year is in question.

2. 2019 Giannis Antetokounmpo (+5.50)
Another easy pick IMO.

3. 2001 Ray Allen (+3.50)
I'm not sure if this year is as much of an outlier as it's supposed to be, 2002's increased 3pt volume is appealing (but a conference finals berth vs no playoffs can cloud judgment...); I don't wanna really argue it so I'll take the usual year.

4. 1985 Sidney Moncrief (+3.50)
Edges out Oscar & Marques because of defense.

5. 1981 Marques Johnson (+3.50)
On the surface he seems about as good as Dr. J, superstar offensive production with decent wing defense - but I find myself often wondering about his real impact: the Bucks never really seemed to miss him that much.

Post #12 » by **trex_8063** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:53 pm

sansterre wrote:1. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - It's really a question of how much you value the postseason. His Win Shares are way higher in '71, but his playoff performance in the '74 playoffs was on another level.

Perhaps.
Though where Elmore Smith, Clifford Ray, and then Dave Cowens represents a fairly tough run of individual defenders......Nate Thurmond, followed by Wilt Chamberlain, followed by the Unseld/Hayes duo is notably tougher, imo.

His rs is notably better in '71, too.

sansterre · Post #13 » by **sansterre** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:01 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
sansterre wrote:1. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - It's really a question of how much you value the postseason. His Win Shares are way higher in '71, but his playoff performance in the '74 playoffs was on another level.

Perhaps.
Though where Elmore Smith, Clifford Ray, and then Dave Cowens represents a fairly tough run of individual defenders......Nate Thurmond, followed by Wilt Chamberlain, followed by the Unseld/Hayes duo is notably tougher, imo.

His rs is notably better in '71, too.

Completely agreed. It's really a question of how hard you want to curve for opponents.

His '71 Regular Season was way better, that's not in question. But his playoffs saw a considerable drop in performance. And he absolutely faced perhaps the toughest series of defensive centers . . . ever. Even still.

'74 was up against far weaker defenders, but he also had way less support around him.

Hmm . . .

Honestly, you've kind of got me re-thinking my vote.

eminence · Post #14 » by **eminence** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:06 pm

1/2 are pretty easy for this one, but 3-6 are all pretty close for me. Oscar/Marques/Moncrief/Allen, pretty interesting comparison.

LA Bird · Post #15 » by **LA Bird** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:22 pm

1. 1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. 2019 Giannis Antetokounmpo
GOAT level two way peaks.

3. 1971 Oscar Robertson
4. 2001 Ray Allen
5. 1984 Sidney Moncrief
Oscar's numbers were lower than in his younger years but it's still pretty good and he was a great #2 on one of the greatest offenses and teams of all time. It could have been a mini dynasty if he hadn't declined with age but this turned out to be his only prime season on the Bucks. 01 Allen led a #1 offense with some very strong offensive stats but his defense is not that great. Moncrief could have been as high as third here with his two way play but he is not as good in the playoffs as in the regular season.

I am lower on Marques Johnson than most people. Mid-level volume scorer, well rounded but not a major playmaker or defender or shooter. The Bucks were .500 team before Lanier's arrival lifted them to elite levels where they stayed at even when Marques was out or traded. Still a great player but just not as good as the guys above him IMO and one excellent series doesn't really change that. Also, an honorable mention to Paul Pressey who low key has a higher BPM peak than anyone besides Kareem and Giannis.

homecourtloss · Post #16 » by **homecourtloss** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:43 am

1. 1971 Kareem. Regular season was better by quite a bit though I think he was an overall better player in 1974 without the same level of production. Was better in the ‘74 playoffs, though.

2. 2020 Giannis. Things went bad in the bubble but the RPM/RAPM/RAPTOR/PIPM/LEBRON numbers are just crazy.

3. 2001 Ray Allen. Incredible year that he kept up in the playoffs as well. Bucks’ offense fell apart without him.

4. 1981 Marques Johnson. Highly underrated year. Great postseason as well including a great game 7 against the Sixers.

5. 1985 Moncrief. Regular season 1983 was better but he was really good in the 1985 playoffs. They got swept by the Sixers but Moncrief was very good offensively other than game 3.

Djoker · Post #17 » by **Djoker** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:01 am

1. 1971-1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Easy choice. No need to really justify Kareem as #1. Why this season? Statistically it's one of the greatest if not the greatest season ever. 35/17/5 on +10 rTS for a 66-win team. And played amazing defense to boot... who does that? He had a knee injury and shot poorly in the playoffs but against Wilt in the WCF he still put up 34/17/5 on -2 rTS with like 4 blocks a game. Wilt's Lakers happened to win 69 games and were one of the greatest teams ever and Kareem was flatout dominant all year.

2. 2019-2020 Giannis Antetokounmpo

Also a comfortable choice for #2. Great on both ends of the floor, led Bucks to the best record in the regular season. Giannis was the best player in the league most of the season and if he didn't get hurt in the playoffs who knows. None of the other guys below him have any case over him.

3. 1970-1971 Oscar Robertson

Oscar's arrival on the Bucks improved them from a good team to a historically great one. He was the veteran leader, the main ballhandler and playmaker, and an underrated plug who gave whatever the team needed on a particular night. He may have been out of his prime but I feel somewhat comfortable thinking that he was still a better basketball player than Sid and Ray ever were.

4. 1982-1983 Sidney Moncrief

Fantastic two-way player and one of the best perimeter defenders ever. He was a key piece to some really really good Bucks teams.

5. 2000-2001 Ray Allen

Ray had a really nice playoff run probably the best of his career considering the Bucks team was not very impressive and the great numbers he put up. He took the Bucks to the ECF averaging 25/4/6 on +9 rTS.

HM: 1978-1979 Marques Johnson

I feel open to changing my order #3 through #5 in light of more evidence. #1 and #2 really seem like locks though.

Odinn21 · Post #18 » by **Odinn21** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:13 am

I am really curious about how this Big O/Marques/Ray/Squid race will turn out.

HeartBreakKid · Post #19 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:15 am

Out of curiosity what do some of you guys think of CP3 this season? And would you compare his impact on the Suns to something similar to what we see with Big O? Obviously Big O has a lot of talent to play with relative to the modern Suns, but more along the lines of how he's impacting the game and how his stats aren't really designed to capture his play style.

Would you guys take players like Ray Allen over 2021 CP3?

Odinn21 · Post #20 » by **Odinn21** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:23 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:Out of curiosity what do some of you guys think of CP3 this season? And would you compare his impact on the Suns to something similar to what we see with Big O? Obviously Big O has a lot of talent to play with relative to the modern Suns, but more along the lines of how he's impacting the game and how his stats aren't really designed to capture his play style.

Would you guys take players like Ray Allen over 2021 CP3?

I'd comfortably take 2001 Ray Allen over 2021 Chris Paul.

I think this interpolation type of approach kind of messes up with our perception. To eliminate impact coming from the name, I usually think it as "what if his name was not Ray Allen or Chris Paul or Oscar Robertson" to see things differently without negative or positive bias and arguably more objectively. Surely, there's a compromise between thinking between "2021 Chris Paul" and "a random, nameless player having Chris Paul's performance in 2021".

Not everyone is LeBron James you know. :lol:

Not everyone has that "I have that extra gear in myself constantly".