What do the Bulls need from a starting Point Gaurd

CoreyVillains · Post #41 » by **CoreyVillains** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:36 am

We need someone who can consistently get paint touches. Too often without Zach I see our guards struggle so much with being able to penetrate and shift the defense out of position. While I see the value of adding a guard like Lonzo, I still don't think he accomplishes a lot of what we need from the position.

MGB8 · Post #42 » by **MGB8** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:39 pm

CoreyVillains wrote:We need someone who can consistently get paint touches. Too often without Zach I see our guards struggle so much with being able to penetrate and shift the defense out of position. While I see the value of adding a guard like Lonzo, I still don't think he accomplishes a lot of what we need from the position.

This I 100% agree with. The Bulls need more than just a distributor. They need a penetrator. A guy who plays downhill. I'm not sure that would be from the PG position, though.

Honestly, if AK is really in a "win now" frame of mind, the best move, IMO, would be a sign and trade of Lauri for Derozan. He gives you a decent amount of distribution (he just put up 10 assists, to go with 37 points, against Washington in the Spurs 1 point OT loss) and also still is somewhat of a downhill player, drawing a good amount of FTs, too (13 in that game, 7.1 FTA/G this season).

I suspect that despite him being a poor 3 pt shooter (26% on just 1.4 3PA/G) he could in Donovan's scheme post better than his best prior years -- I think something around 33% on ~3 3PA/G would be possible (though that would decrease his FTA/G).

He hasn't turned 32 yet, so while he's in decline, he may have 1-2 more years of high level play left in him - especially if his minutes are managed. Essentially, Derozan would be a "super Temple."

I think that if the Bulls could swap Lauri for Derozan (a doable dual-sign and trade because of the Spurs cap room), plus re-sign Theis, then you'd basically just be looking to see if you could upgrade over Archi and Sato in terms of a 3& D guy (where Sato I think has proven that, while a nice reserve, is simply not a starting level player). I'm not sure that guy would really need a lot of PG skills - though that would be nice. If you could get a strong player with the MLE for that role (though have no idea who -- maybe Alec Burks, who can play some PG and whose defense has becomes "passable"? -- maybe Bruce Brown or Sterling Brown or Frank Jackson or, depending on what he shows, Mike James with part MLEs), you could have a depth chart like:

MLE-FA --- Sato/Coby
Lavine --- Coby/Brown/Sato
Derozan --- Pat/Brown/Sato
Theis --- Pat/Thad/Aminu?
Vucevic --- Thad

mtron32 · Post #43 » by **mtron32** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:29 pm

MGB8 wrote:
jump wrote:There must be a good PG in the Euro Leagues. I would imagine that with the weak FA market this summer, AK has people scouring other world leagues for talent.

The PG position is currently lacking in the NBA. Plenty of teams don't have one "true-starter" level PG, of those that do - many are over the age of 30. Meanwhile, it's rare for teams to have more than one such player. Of those that do:

Brooklyn has Harden, Kyrie, and Dinwiddie ... but Dinwiddie was more "passable" than anything... and that was pre-injury.

The T-Wolves have Russell and 30 year old Rubio - he may be the most "getable" non FA.

Charlotte has Rozier and Graham (and Ball), with Rozier having his best season. He or Graham might be getable, but at what cost? And, if its Graham, how much better is he than a more developed Coby?

Cleveland has Sexton and Garland - neither are gettable.

Denver has Murray (now hurt) and Morris - all indications are that Morris is not available.

Sacramento has Fox and Haliburton - not available.

Toronto has Lowry and VanVleet - Lowry will be a FA but is clearly declining, would need to be overpaid and traded for.

Portland has Lillard and McCollum (who can play point) --- I doubt that McCullom is available for what the Bulls can offer. They also have Simmons, but he has had a kind of step back, and may be more just a bench gunner).

San Antonio has Murray and Derrick White - with White somewhat more of a "much better version of Jerian Grant."

No one else really has a guy on their roster that I'd be confident can start at point guard. Brunson may not start for Dallas because they use Luka as a PG but he's their only stereo-typical "PG" type player who might be starting caliber. Indiana has McConnell and Holiday behind Brogdon... but I'm not sure either guy is an NBA starter. Memphis has Tyus Jones and DeAnthony Melton (the latter much more a SG) - don't think Jones is a starter, not sure Melton is a PG as opposed to a Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams type bench gunner. Ditto Shake Milton on the Sixers. Magic have Fultz (if he's ever healthy) and Cole Anthony --- but I'm not sold on Anthony yet. Ditto Nunn who is sometimes ahead, sometimes behind Dragic (with an unclear PG situation in Miami... de facto Jimmy?).

I'd move heaven and earth for Fox to play next to Zach and Vucc

kodo · Post #44 » by **kodo** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:46 pm

For me, the biggest area of Bulls need isn't passing/assist generation, which is what most people think of when you say Point Guard. I wonder if people are aware that the Bulls are 5th in the league in assists. The teams ahead of us have generational passers like Jokic and CP3. Adding a non-star PG isn't going to do very much for us in this area.

Our defense was miserable to start this season and has been improving ever since. It's still frustrating, but it's actually very average, 17th.

Our biggest area of need is drawing FTs. The Bulls were setting records for consecutive games without 20 attempts as a team. The worst team in the league last year averaged 19 FTA per game. We're at 17 this season. We're going to be the worst FT drawing team since 2017.

And unlike defense, there's no reason to think this will improve. Zach is mainly a long range shooter & finisher. He's not in his element trying to be crafty like CP3 or Harden. Vuc's playstyle doesn't draw FTs either, this is his biggest weakness in an otherwise great all-around skillset. Our 2nd best guy at drawing FTs (besides Zach) was Wendell Carter.

If we can add a significant piece this offseason, I wouldn't even care what position that guy plays as long as it's a physical player that can put the ball on the floor, drive into his defender and create contact, and sell it to get to the line. These kind of guys are mainly PGs/Combo guards, but one of the best options would be Derozan as a SF. You ignore the position and get him anyway and figure it out, because he actually brings things the team needs instead of doing things we're already elite at, like passing.

When you look at the big success stories of this year like Jerami Grant & Julius Randle, a big part of their game is getting to the line. The biggest problem is anyone who can get to the line consistently is already untouchable or going to be almost impossible to get. The two most realistic options would be Derozan or Schroder. Lonzo would be pretty far down the list.

The 3 pointer has been getting all the discussion lately for the NBA, but lost in all the 3 point debates is that the #1 most efficient scoring play in the NBA isn't the 3, it's the shooting foul. A 40% 3 shooter generates 1.2 points per shot, and 85% FT shooter who draws a foul generates 1.7.

RoseTheFuture22 · Post #45 » by **RoseTheFuture22** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:07 pm

Looking at the guys who have played with Zach so far:
Dunn: Great defensively but was a complete non-threat offensively when he didn't have the ball. Avg PG skills

Sato: Bad defensively at the PG spot, not really a threat when he doesn't have the ball and a scorer, good playmaker/ballhandler.

White: Bad defensively(although better lately), bad ballhandler/playmaker, Good shooter.

If we are going to move forward with Zach and Vuc, we need defense and being able to value possessions and not turn the ball over primarily at that position. They also have to be some kind of threat offensively too whether its as a shooter or being able to get into the paint consistently. Assuming we can't get one of the vet PGs(Lowry, Conley, hell maybe Paul opts out) I am starting to come around on Shroeder based on how well he's played without LeBron/Davis and his familiarity with Donovan.

GoBlue72391 · Post #46 » by **GoBlue72391** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:33 pm

Defense and playmaking are by far the two biggest needs for our next PG. Anything else is just a bonus.

Having a PG that doesn't consistently get hung up on screens and allow continuous penetration would go a long way to covering up Vuch's defense and make us a better team. A smart playmaker who can get Zach and Vuch (and Lauri if we keep him) easy buckets, get them the ball in their spots, recognize mismatches, etc. would help get the most out of our roster.

On paper Lonzo sounds like the answer, and while I do think he would help shore up our defensive issues, his half court playmaking is severely overrated and he doesn't offer anything offensively other than catch and shoot 3s. I don't think he would move the needle for us.

MrSparkle · Post #47 » by **MrSparkle** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:11 pm

A very scrappy 3D guard (off the bench) would do wonders for this team. Weary of overpaying and seeing a huge drop-off in a new, more difficult situation, but I'd get a pulse on McConnell and Caruso. Obviously Arci is that guy, but I just don't think he's good enough. He's a margin too weak and small to hang. He does shoot the ball better than TJ, but otherwise the defensive numbers are a world apart.

Bandit King · Post #48 » by **Bandit King** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:51 pm

One that can pass and get assists

sco · Post #49 » by **sco** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:18 am

Somebody who doens't play like Coby White.

WindyCityBorn · Post #50 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:38 am

Something Coby White will never be.

WindyCityBorn · Post #51 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:38 am

Bandit King wrote:One that can pass and get assists

They need to be able to score too.

SalmonsSuperfan · Post #52 » by **SalmonsSuperfan** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:48 am

mtron32 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
jump wrote:There must be a good PG in the Euro Leagues. I would imagine that with the weak FA market this summer, AK has people scouring other world leagues for talent.

The PG position is currently lacking in the NBA. Plenty of teams don't have one "true-starter" level PG, of those that do - many are over the age of 30. Meanwhile, it's rare for teams to have more than one such player. Of those that do:

Brooklyn has Harden, Kyrie, and Dinwiddie ... but Dinwiddie was more "passable" than anything... and that was pre-injury.

The T-Wolves have Russell and 30 year old Rubio - he may be the most "getable" non FA.

Charlotte has Rozier and Graham (and Ball), with Rozier having his best season. He or Graham might be getable, but at what cost? And, if its Graham, how much better is he than a more developed Coby?

Cleveland has Sexton and Garland - neither are gettable.

Denver has Murray (now hurt) and Morris - all indications are that Morris is not available.

Sacramento has Fox and Haliburton - not available.

Toronto has Lowry and VanVleet - Lowry will be a FA but is clearly declining, would need to be overpaid and traded for.

Portland has Lillard and McCollum (who can play point) --- I doubt that McCullom is available for what the Bulls can offer. They also have Simmons, but he has had a kind of step back, and may be more just a bench gunner).

San Antonio has Murray and Derrick White - with White somewhat more of a "much better version of Jerian Grant."

No one else really has a guy on their roster that I'd be confident can start at point guard. Brunson may not start for Dallas because they use Luka as a PG but he's their only stereo-typical "PG" type player who might be starting caliber. Indiana has McConnell and Holiday behind Brogdon... but I'm not sure either guy is an NBA starter. Memphis has Tyus Jones and DeAnthony Melton (the latter much more a SG) - don't think Jones is a starter, not sure Melton is a PG as opposed to a Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams type bench gunner. Ditto Shake Milton on the Sixers. Magic have Fultz (if he's ever healthy) and Cole Anthony --- but I'm not sold on Anthony yet. Ditto Nunn who is sometimes ahead, sometimes behind Dragic (with an unclear PG situation in Miami... de facto Jimmy?).

I'd move heaven and earth for Fox to play next to Zach and Vucc

me too. i think the less flashy version of this move, but one that is more realistic, is to get d'angelo russell. his value is presumably in the toilet dealing with injuries the past two seasons and getting paid $30mil until 2023, but i think he fills a lot of needs we would want, a guy who can put pressure on defenses with his scoring and still play the traditional point guard role.

WindyCityBorn · Post #53 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:14 am

SalmonsSuperfan wrote:
mtron32 wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
The PG position is currently lacking in the NBA. Plenty of teams don't have one "true-starter" level PG, of those that do - many are over the age of 30. Meanwhile, it's rare for teams to have more than one such player. Of those that do:

Brooklyn has Harden, Kyrie, and Dinwiddie ... but Dinwiddie was more "passable" than anything... and that was pre-injury.

The T-Wolves have Russell and 30 year old Rubio - he may be the most "getable" non FA.

Charlotte has Rozier and Graham (and Ball), with Rozier having his best season. He or Graham might be getable, but at what cost? And, if its Graham, how much better is he than a more developed Coby?

Cleveland has Sexton and Garland - neither are gettable.

Denver has Murray (now hurt) and Morris - all indications are that Morris is not available.

Sacramento has Fox and Haliburton - not available.

Toronto has Lowry and VanVleet - Lowry will be a FA but is clearly declining, would need to be overpaid and traded for.

Portland has Lillard and McCollum (who can play point) --- I doubt that McCullom is available for what the Bulls can offer. They also have Simmons, but he has had a kind of step back, and may be more just a bench gunner).

San Antonio has Murray and Derrick White - with White somewhat more of a "much better version of Jerian Grant."

No one else really has a guy on their roster that I'd be confident can start at point guard. Brunson may not start for Dallas because they use Luka as a PG but he's their only stereo-typical "PG" type player who might be starting caliber. Indiana has McConnell and Holiday behind Brogdon... but I'm not sure either guy is an NBA starter. Memphis has Tyus Jones and DeAnthony Melton (the latter much more a SG) - don't think Jones is a starter, not sure Melton is a PG as opposed to a Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams type bench gunner. Ditto Shake Milton on the Sixers. Magic have Fultz (if he's ever healthy) and Cole Anthony --- but I'm not sold on Anthony yet. Ditto Nunn who is sometimes ahead, sometimes behind Dragic (with an unclear PG situation in Miami... de facto Jimmy?).

I'd move heaven and earth for Fox to play next to Zach and Vucc

me too. i think the less flashy version of this move, but one that is more realistic, is to get d'angelo russell. his value is presumably in the toilet dealing with injuries the past two seasons and getting paid $30mil until 2023, but i think he fills a lot of needs we would want, a guy who can put pressure on defenses with his scoring and still play the traditional point guard role.

I don’t think Minnesota has given up on Russell. Definitely not to the point they would take our trash for him.

MGB8 · Post #54 » by **MGB8** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:00 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
SalmonsSuperfan wrote:
mtron32 wrote:
I'd move heaven and earth for Fox to play next to Zach and Vucc

me too. i think the less flashy version of this move, but one that is more realistic, is to get d'angelo russell. his value is presumably in the toilet dealing with injuries the past two seasons and getting paid $30mil until 2023, but i think he fills a lot of needs we would want, a guy who can put pressure on defenses with his scoring and still play the traditional point guard role.

I don’t think Minnesota has given up on Russell. Definitely not to the point they would take our trash for him.

More than that, Russell and KAT are friends, so absent a blow up, I don't think Russell is being moved.

Ricky Rubio, on the other hand, could be gettable. But there isn't "upside" there. I do wonder, though, if he might be gettable "cheap" - in the sense of a trade along the lines of Thad Young and Satoransky for Rubio and Juan Hernangomez.

That actually might make sense for Minnesota from a time-frame and team-building point of view. They desperately need a vet to help guide KAT (and McDaniels and Naz). Ed Davis doesn't seem to have added much, while Hernangomez disappointed this year.

So there's a fairly decent upgrade, there. Meanwhile, although Rubio is more talented than Sato, he's also older and more ball dominant - the Rubio-Russell experiment didn't work (although Rubio-Edwards kind of did). Sato, while more a rotation player, is younger and more of a "background" guy, and that may fit the Wolves' needs better.

You couple that with a Lauri for Derozan sign and trade and I think you could operate as an over the cap team (not renouncing much of anyone until it was time - as in immediately for Denzel, waiting for others), and your roster is now:

PG: Rubio, MLE-guy, Arch
SG: Lavine, Coby, (T.Brown), J.Green?
SF: Derozan, Pat, T.Brown/Temple?
PF: (Pat)/Theis, Aminu, (Hernangomez)
CC: Vuc, (Theis), Hernangomez

That's actually pretty nice..... not 100% sure that it was fit -- would worry about shooting --- would push hard for Alec Burks with the full MLE to get versatility (though not really a natural PG, though he has played it some) --- but he may get more...

FecesOfDeath · Post #55 » by **FecesOfDeath** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:34 pm

The next Kirk Hinrich. Mainly, a PG who can handle the minimal PG duties well while being an incredible pick and roll defender who would allow Vuc to comfortably drop defend like he should do.

Post #56 » by **coldfish** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:23 pm

The Bulls didn't lose last night because Derrick Rose and Elfrid Payton dominated them with their 6 for 22 shooting. PG continues to be wildly overrated here.

Chicago's problem is at SF and PF.

Post #57 » by **Ice Man** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:46 pm

coldfish wrote:The Bulls didn't lose last night because Derrick Rose and Elfrid Payton dominated them with their 6 for 22 shooting. PG continues to be wildly overrated here.

Chicago's problem is at SF and PF.

I don't know about PF. Theis/Lauri delivered 20/10 in 45 minutes last night. The game before Theis went crazy, and the game before that they were 18/11 in 45 minutes. That's not bad, and the defense is good when Theis is on the court. OK they're not creators but they still strike me as a pretty decent combo. The Heat would kill to get that production from its PF slot.

Now at SF ...

Post #58 » by **Michael Jackson** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:32 pm

Tetlak wrote:I'm personally a big fan of Malcolm Brogdon. I wonder if he would be attainable.

Doubt it. He seems like a guy Indiana just loves. He is the “good” players they tend to like.

Post #59 » by **Michael Jackson** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:39 pm

coldfish wrote:The Bulls didn't lose last night because Derrick Rose and Elfrid Payton dominated them with their 6 for 22 shooting. PG continues to be wildly overrated here.

Chicago's problem is at SF and PF.

It’s at PG too. The real problem is simply not enough talent beyond our two obvious spots of Zach and Vuc, and neither of those guys are players who elevate other guys games. That being said I don’t see a PG we get that solves many problems. Is Ball better than Sato? Yeah he doesn’t really change much he isn’t that much better. How many CP3 guys are out there? Someone who makes the team better. Not many. I think i am with you that we need to upgrade SF and PF and it will be more impactful.

Post #60 » by **coldfish** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:51 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:
coldfish wrote:The Bulls didn't lose last night because Derrick Rose and Elfrid Payton dominated them with their 6 for 22 shooting. PG continues to be wildly overrated here.

Chicago's problem is at SF and PF.

It’s at PG too. The real problem is simply not enough talent beyond our two obvious spots of Zach and Vuc, and neither of those guys are players who elevate other guys games. That being said I don’t see a PG we get that solves many problems. Is Ball better than Sato? Yeah he doesn’t really change much he isn’t that much better. How many CP3 guys are out there? Someone who makes the team better. Not many. I think i am with you that we need to upgrade SF and PF and it will be more impactful.

That's kind of my point. Would Chris Paul or Lillard help the team? Of course. That said, just an average SF would help the team by just as much and is probably infinitely more available.