GT - Bulls v Bucks - 4/30 7 PM CST

[Dominator83]

I think the most frustrating part about all of this, is in the offseason the nightmare will probably continue when we dont have our pick and we have Lauri and Theis go for nothing.

And honestly the frustrating part is, normally around this time, rookies and young players are actually improving around this time. Something to give you hope going into next year.

Last year it was Coby down the stretch.
Wendell was playing well before he got injured.
And we all know of Lauri's heroics in his rookie year.

Its very discouraging having Pat move backwards down the stretch.

Well Bears fans felt like this in the offseason and got sometihng to feel good about again. I hope it happens for us too.

Couldn't agree more. Even early years Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler would turn in good outings post ASB. Hell, even Tyrus Thomas would look good down the stretch. Pat hasn't improved at all.

[Andi Obst]

Just at least give Dotson a fair chance, Billy. It’s not like it matters at this point. I just don’t get how this hasn’t happened yet.

Otherwise I’d very much like a "skip to the end of the season"-button to press. Season is over.

[Dominator83]

I think you were the one who mentioned how big of a factor TOs were playing in damping our offense pre trade. If that was improved we would have had a better Orating then than we do now.

100% agreed, the main thing keeping our offense down pre-trade was turnovers. No doubt about it.

I was only pointing out that our offense has been exactly as efficient post-trade as it was pre-trade, even though it was claimed that our offense is less efficient post-trade. So saying our offense is less efficient post-trade is a 100% falsehood, plain and simple.

Holy cow, man. You rely wayyy too much on individual stats to make a conclusion for you. I don't give a rat's ass what the offensive rating says, anyone with two eyes and a basic understanding of basketball can see that our offense is noticeably worse after the trade deadline. Actually, our offensive rating pre and post trade deadline is NOT "exactly the same." Pre-trade deadline it was 110.6 and post-trade deadline it's 109.9. Sure, that's not a big difference, but it's also not "exactly the same" as you've claimed multiple times. This is almost as ridiculous as you saying Theis is a better scorer than Lauri because they have the same TS% while completely ignoring the different types of shots they take and the different roles they play.

Stats are very helpful and serve a purpose, but they're not the be-all, end-all. There's more to the game than just stats. Hell, it ain't even that. In my previous discussions with you, you simply cherry picked the stats that are important to you while completely brushing off all stats I brought up in my retort. This is the same thing. You can't just pick and choose certain stats just because they support your viewpoint while discounting the eye test and all other stats that go against your view point.

If you insist on keeping it 100% all about stats, then take a look at this:

PPG pre-trade deadline: 113 on 88.9 FGA per game
PPG post-trade deadline: 106.9 on 87.4 FGA per game

FG% pre: 47.9%
FG% post: 47.7%

3FG% pre: 37.6%
3FG% post: 34.5%

FTA pre: 18.8
FTA post: 15.6

FT% pre: 80.4%
FT% post: 78.1%

APG pre: 26.1
APG post: 28.6

TOPG pre: 16
TOPG post: 14.3

Point differential pre: -0.6
Point differential post: -3.3

Offensive rating pre: 110.6
Offensive rating post: 109.9

Defensive rating pre: 111.6
Defensive rating post: 113.3

Net rating pre: -1.0
Net rating post: -3.5

TS% pre: 58.2%
TS% post: 56.7%

PACE pre: 101
Pace post: 97.2

Despite your claims, our offense was better before the trade deadline. It is less efficient now than it was before. Actually, let me rephrase that: Our team was better before the trade deadline. In almost every category. Both the stats and they eye test back that up. If you don't like that, well, I'm sure you'll find some stat to negate all the other stats.

Well one big problem is, pre ASG we had superstar Zach. Post ASG we've had either no Zach or meh Zach. Prior to the ASG Zach was looking very much like a legit superstar. Everybody here was screaming to get him help! Well, they got him help. And at the time, it was about 80% or more positive around here. Now it's swinging to negative. We are yet to see Vuc paired up with superstar Zach.

[johnnyvann840]

......... Maybe Randle is the next Lebron?

Nobody is saying this. The point is that he makes his teammates better and elevates the play of his team. Period.

How many players in the NBA are leading their team in Points, Rebounds and Assists?

Answer: TWO. Jokic and Randle.

and Randle almost leads the Knicks in steals too. Robinson has him by .1 per game.


Lebron has done this most of his career... not this year. Almost, but Davis has him by .1 RPG.

[Stratmaster]

Glad I had a gig last night so my Friday night wasn't ruined. I can recover from an early Saturday cluster.

Bucks are obviously better without Giannis taking all the shots away from Portis and Lopez. If they can get a first round pick for the freak they should trade him.

At least with Zach out Aminu and Coby get to play and shoot more. Otherwise the Bulls likely lose by more. Did you see that ball movement?

Watching the Bucks without Giannis and the Bulls without Lavine is like watching the A team play the B team at the gym. Neither one look good but the A team has all the shooters... so...

How much longer are they going to make Zach sit?



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[Grodoboldo]

Wow, we're not even PG threads anymore?
Low point indeed.

[johnnyvann840]

Glad I had a gig last night so my Friday night wasn't ruined. I can recover from an early Saturday cluster.

Bucks are obviously better without Giannis taking all the shots away from Portis and Lopez. If they can get a first round pick for the freak they should trade him.

At least with Zach out Aminu and Coby get to play and shoot more. Otherwise the Bulls likely lose by more. Did you see that ball movement?

Watching the Bucks without Giannis and the Bulls without Lavine is like watching the A team play the B team at the gym. Neither one look good but the A team has all the shooters... so...

How much longer are they going to make Zach sit?



Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Why would any team want to trade Giannis, a player who makes his team a LOT better when he's on the floor. Bucks are over 7 pts per 100 better with Giannis.

I think Zach should sit the rest of the season. Why risk him getting hurt, Whether you want to deal him, or not, in the offseason? Bulls suck with or without him.

[WindyCityBorn]

Wow, we're not even PG threads anymore?
Low point indeed.

The end of season has been a disaster. All the enthusiasm is gone.

[WindyCityBorn]

Glad I had a gig last night so my Friday night wasn't ruined. I can recover from an early Saturday cluster.

Bucks are obviously better without Giannis taking all the shots away from Portis and Lopez. If they can get a first round pick for the freak they should trade him.

At least with Zach out Aminu and Coby get to play and shoot more. Otherwise the Bulls likely lose by more. Did you see that ball movement?

Watching the Bucks without Giannis and the Bulls without Lavine is like watching the A team play the B team at the gym. Neither one look good but the A team has all the shooters... so...

How much longer are they going to make Zach sit?



Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Why would any team want to trade Giannis, a player who makes his team a LOT better when he's on the floor. Bucks are over 7 pts per 100 better with Giannis.

I think Zach should sit the rest of the season. Why risk him getting hurt, Whether you want to deal him, or not, in the offseason? Bulls suck with or without him.

I think him playing more with Vuc now would be a good thing. His ankle is probably fine after missing all these games so I’m glad he did sit, but I’d like him back out there for final 5 games or so. No reason to completely shut him down. Anyone can be injured at any time. Even in practice and pick up games over the off-season.

[Stratmaster]

Glad I had a gig last night so my Friday night wasn't ruined. I can recover from an early Saturday cluster.

Bucks are obviously better without Giannis taking all the shots away from Portis and Lopez. If they can get a first round pick for the freak they should trade him.

At least with Zach out Aminu and Coby get to play and shoot more. Otherwise the Bulls likely lose by more. Did you see that ball movement?

Watching the Bucks without Giannis and the Bulls without Lavine is like watching the A team play the B team at the gym. Neither one look good but the A team has all the shooters... so...

How much longer are they going to make Zach sit?



Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Why would any team want to trade Giannis, a player who makes his team a LOT better when he's on the floor. Bucks are over 7 pts per 100 better with Giannis.

I think Zach should sit the rest of the season. Why risk him getting hurt, Whether you want to deal him, or not, in the offseason? Bulls suck with or without him.

Your sarcasm detector needs repair

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[FranchisePlayer]

Almost every time I look at him he is standing in one place. Just standing there. Never cutting, never moving hard off the ball. He needs a fire lit under him. He just doesn't play with any fire at all. In fact, this whole team plays without fire. It's really sickening. I hate to keep bringing up the Knicks but it's like night and day watching the two teams. The Knicks just play inspired ball and they just get after it. You never see them standing around waiting for something to happen. They make it happen.

I thought LaVine being out was supposed to make everyone one better?

I have had my share of criticizing Zach but I never said that. What I have said is that he doesn't make anyone around him better and I stand by that. He doesn't make much of a difference and doesn't really move the needle and that is one of this team's problems. I think Vuc suffers from the same issue. I didn't know it and was very pro-trade but I'm not sure if a team with both Zach and Vuc as it's two all star's is ever going to be a team where the sum is greater than it's parts.

I'm seriously worried about the construct of this team right now going into the off season and likely not having a draft pick this year. Our two best players and all stars both are defensive liabilities neither of them seem to have the leadership qualities that this team really needs. I'm willing to give it a chance... at least more of a chance than we have seen to this point which hasn't been much. I just think what this team needs is a fiery two way player who inspires his teammates and makes everyone around him better. Like a J Randle does in NYC or Jimmy does for all his teams. Like Chris Paul is doing in PHX right now.

Word.

"All-Stars". What an inflated definition, based on pure scoring prowess. And when Vuc's shot is off, in this game embarrassingly off, he has really nothing else to offer. That's like Lavine's game in a nutshell, too.

I agree, what you see on the court is so badly constructed that you really do need to be worried going ahead. Williams looks completely overwhelmed out there, yet he keeps getting free pass. Markkanen is being smoked out of the team, WTF... The key position in every team, PG, has been tried but yet to be filled by anyone. Um, IS there a plan to fill that void? We have couple of good vets who seem to be misused by the coach.

But the two core pieces, WineCola, are something to build around some think. When in fact, both of those guys should be viewed as complementary pieces in any team that wants to win.

Hate that kind of chuck fests that Vucevic produced. Frightening that we have two similar players viewed as keepers and once every problem around them is fixed we're competitive again.

[FranchisePlayer]

Glad I had a gig last night so my Friday night wasn't ruined. I can recover from an early Saturday cluster.

Bucks are obviously better without Giannis taking all the shots away from Portis and Lopez. If they can get a first round pick for the freak they should trade him.

At least with Zach out Aminu and Coby get to play and shoot more. Otherwise the Bulls likely lose by more. Did you see that ball movement?

Watching the Bucks without Giannis and the Bulls without Lavine is like watching the A team play the B team at the gym. Neither one look good but the A team has all the shooters... so...

How much longer are they going to make Zach sit?



Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Why would any team want to trade Giannis, a player who makes his team a LOT better when he's on the floor. Bucks are over 7 pts per 100 better with Giannis.

I think Zach should sit the rest of the season. Why risk him getting hurt, Whether you want to deal him, or not, in the offseason? Bulls suck with or without him.

Your sarcasm detector needs repair

His BB analysis gadget is working fine, though. Many good posts from him in this thread, previous one included.

[WindyCityBorn]

I thought LaVine being out was supposed to make everyone one better?

I have had my share of criticizing Zach but I never said that. What I have said is that he doesn't make anyone around him better and I stand by that. He doesn't make much of a difference and doesn't really move the needle and that is one of this team's problems. I think Vuc suffers from the same issue. I didn't know it and was very pro-trade but I'm not sure if a team with both Zach and Vuc as it's two all star's is ever going to be a team where the sum is greater than it's parts.

I'm seriously worried about the construct of this team right now going into the off season and likely not having a draft pick this year. Our two best players and all stars both are defensive liabilities neither of them seem to have the leadership qualities that this team really needs. I'm willing to give it a chance... at least more of a chance than we have seen to this point which hasn't been much. I just think what this team needs is a fiery two way player who inspires his teammates and makes everyone around him better. Like a J Randle does in NYC or Jimmy does for all his teams. Like Chris Paul is doing in PHX right now.

Word.

"All-Stars". What an inflated definition, based on pure scoring prowess. And when Vuc's shot is off, in this game embarrassingly off, he has really nothing else to offer. That's like Lavine's game in a nutshell, too.

I agree, what you see on the court is so badly constructed that you really do need to be worried going ahead. Williams looks completely overwhelmed out there, yet he keeps getting free pass. Markkanen is being smoked out of the team, WTF... The key position in every team, PG, has been tried but yet to be filled by anyone. Um, IS there a plan to fill that void? We have couple of good vets who seem to be misused by the coach.

But the two core pieces, WineCola, are something to build around some think. When in fact, both of those guys should be viewed as complementary pieces in any team that wants to win.

Hate that kind of chuck fests that Vucevic produced. Frightening that we have two similar players viewed as keepers and once every problem around them is fixed we're competitive again.

Yet you are a huge Lauri fan. Or were.

[Almost Retired]

Portis didn't look half bad. 16 points in 28 minutes. 14 reb. Not bad for a two time cast off. For all his faults he certainly added an element of toughness when he was on the court for us. And he certainly ain't afraid to shoot the basketball. PAW could use a few aggressiveness lessons from Bobby.

[Almost Retired]

Wow, we're not even PG threads anymore?
Low point indeed.

The end of season has been a disaster. All the enthusiasm is gone.

At this point I would not risk having Zach go down in a late season injury for no reason. I'd shut him down at this point. We might as well play the kids and see who is worth keeping. Play Mokoka, Green, Dotson, Arci, and Valentine major minutes. Hope to lose out the remainder of this miserable season and PRAY for some lottery ball love.

[weneeda2guard]

Just at least give Dotson a fair chance, Billy. It’s not like it matters at this point. I just don’t get how this hasn’t happened yet.

Otherwise I’d very much like a "skip to the end of the season"-button to press. Season is over.

It's clear at this point Dotson was a place holder and they don't want to play Dotson because they don't want to pay Dotson.

[Ice Man]

Portis didn't look half bad. 16 points in 28 minutes. 14 reb. Not bad for a two time cast off. For all his faults he certainly added an element of toughness when he was on the court for us. And he certainly ain't afraid to shoot the basketball. PAW could use a few aggressiveness lessons from Bobby.

Bobby was great. He defended well too. I'm convinced that our rookies are consistently worse than most Bulls fans believe and our 3rd year players are generally better than they believe. I would cite Bobby, Doug, Tony, and Wendell as evidence for that statement.

[Almost Retired]

Portis didn't look half bad. 16 points in 28 minutes. 14 reb. Not bad for a two time cast off. For all his faults he certainly added an element of toughness when he was on the court for us. And he certainly ain't afraid to shoot the basketball. PAW could use a few aggressiveness lessons from Bobby.

Bobby was great. He defended well too. I'm convinced that our rookies are consistently worse than most Bulls fans believe and our 3rd year players are generally better than they believe. I would cite Bobby, Doug, Tony, and Wendell as evidence for that statement.

And what did we get for Dinwiddie and E'Twan Moore....they proved to be productive players for somebody else.