THE J0KER wrote:Butler seems happy in Miami and Miami (Pat Riley, Spoelstra, and Adebayo) seems happy with Butler, so I don't see this happen. They trying to bring the 3rd star to Butler and Adebayo for the very next season not to replace one of them and already sacrifice the 2021-22 season.
The only team I see ready to offer a fair price for ACL injured Murray is Toronto IMO because he is a local Canadian star, already the best ever after Steve Nash. For example Murray+Bol for VanVleet+Anunoby but we may regret it in 2023 or 2024 if Murray reaches bubble-Murray level again.
Murray for Vanvleet, Boucher & 2022 FRP (lottery protected).
Vanvleet Barton Porter Jr. Gordon Jokic
Boucher - Morris - Green
Easy pass for me, and I doubt the Nuggets even consider it.
VanVleet is a large downgrade, and all we get out of it is a protected pick and a backup big? NO thanks.
VanVleet is a much better defender though and I think he fits well with Jokic since he's an excellent spot up shooter. If Boucher off the bench isn't seen as a huge upgrade then I'd be willing to replace him with Trent Jr.
Murray for Vanvleet & Trent Jr. I think that's the highest I'd go given the injury.
Murray has always been more of a BIG-GAME player, he rises to the occasion. Much as Reggie Jackson received the nickname Mr October, feels like Murray can garner the same type of accolades for his big game performances.
And I don't get the interest in trading him just because he tore his ACL in a freak accident, not his fault he got hurt.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose
jimmy keys wrote: Murray for Vanvleet, Boucher & 2022 FRP (lottery protected).
Vanvleet Barton Porter Jr. Gordon Jokic
Boucher - Morris - Green
Easy pass for me, and I doubt the Nuggets even consider it.
VanVleet is a large downgrade, and all we get out of it is a protected pick and a backup big? NO thanks.
VanVleet is a much better defender though and I think he fits well with Jokic since he's an excellent spot up shooter. If Boucher off the bench isn't seen as a huge upgrade then I'd be willing to replace him with Trent Jr.
Murray for Vanvleet & Trent Jr. I think that's the highest I'd go given the injury.
Vanvleet Trent Jr Porter Jr. Gordon Jokic
Barton - Morris - Green
[/quote]
I am not saying that VanVleet is a bad player, Murray has a long history of being a bug game player that can be 1 of 2 players that carry an average team to the Conference finals in the west. If he was in a big market he would be a superstar. Nobody is trading a guy like Murray for an Above average PG and a solid SG or backup big. It doesn't happen.
As for the injury, this isn't 1990, lots of guys totally recover from an acl within 18 months. There are a couple of Murray haters that do not like the media loving Murray in the bubble as it takes from Jokic in their eyes, but most real Nuggets fans have no interest in trading him. We just need a competent defensive Starting SG and Morris to get healthy and we will be fine until Murray gets back next February or March.
Alatan wrote:Ok, i might get some flack for this but what do you think about a Murray for Butler trade?
Murray is projected to miss almost the entire next season and who knows will he be ready for the next playoff run. After that the money begins to be tight and our depth might take a big hit. Murays injury might also prevent him to reach that next level.
Butler is a lot older but he has a few seasons left in him. He would give us that perimeter defense alongside scoring and playmaking. Could be the next step that brings us the chip. It would also be his contract year and he will give his 200%.
If Miami flames out in free agency this offseason Butler might want out to chase a ring. They would be willing to get a young borderline allstar player that has shown glimpses of superstar potential and is locked for years to come.
this is the type of deal that kills potential dynasties. Butler is going to be 33 by the time next season starts, there is no way to know how much he has left or when he will be done. We do know that Murray has a long time left, we have a young core, no need to make a dumb move now just because people have no patience or do not like Murray for whatever reason.
Murray is certain to miss the next season and probably wont be good for the post season. Its a question will he ever make the next step he has shown in the bubble and even will he come back on the same level as he was before the injury. Murray was never a gifted athlete compared to the rest of the league and now he will probably be even slower and worse at defense.
We are also going to be tight with cap space after the next season as MPJs extension comes up, and most of our other guys become free agents. The year after that is Jokics extension and if Murray doesnt come back at 100% its another season wasted. I doubt that Jokic would leave Denver but id rather not waste 1-2 years of his prime by waiting on Murray who might never be more than a borderline allstar.
I also dont like the fit of him and MPJ. It makes our defense too weak so if we could trade him for a two way wing that can help us now id be up for it.
As for Butler being old. Its correct, he does have a lot of mileage on him and thats why i was thinking that Miami would be willing to deal him. Ive been looking around on BBal ref for similar players to see how many minutes they played before they started to decline severely. Baring injuries I believe that Butler can play another 2 seasons at a high level after this one and 2 more seasons as a very good starter after that. I know Its not exactly science but there is a pattern there. First two seasons he would be worth a max contract and the other two he would be in a role similar to what Millsap provided to us or Iggy to the GSW. It would be an overpay but we would be capped out anyway. Nuggets are always going to need to pay more for talent that the big markets.
Two things that come to mind, Butler has literally forced his way out of two situations because he didn't feel like they were playing up to his standards, he's not a "team player" IMO. He's already started bitchin' down in MIA after going to the Finals last year. Two, he needs to be the Alpha Dog, wouldn't come close to that here, feels like he would destroy MPJ here.
Talent is there but I'm not crazy about his attitude.
As for Murray, he just turned 24, he has the drive, the talent and just needs to find the consistency. Joker needed to learn to take that next step, which he has this season, Murray is right there in line. With MPJ steppin' up in Murray's place this year, this team won't be hurting for scoring. His defense is getting better and with the addition of Gordon, should fill in a lot of the gaps there, No real need to change what we have going on
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose
Alatan wrote:Ok, i might get some flack for this but what do you think about a Murray for Butler trade?
Murray is projected to miss almost the entire next season and who knows will he be ready for the next playoff run. After that the money begins to be tight and our depth might take a big hit. Murays injury might also prevent him to reach that next level.
Butler is a lot older but he has a few seasons left in him. He would give us that perimeter defense alongside scoring and playmaking. Could be the next step that brings us the chip. It would also be his contract year and he will give his 200%.
If Miami flames out in free agency this offseason Butler might want out to chase a ring. They would be willing to get a young borderline allstar player that has shown glimpses of superstar potential and is locked for years to come.
this is the type of deal that kills potential dynasties. Butler is going to be 33 by the time next season starts, there is no way to know how much he has left or when he will be done. We do know that Murray has a long time left, we have a young core, no need to make a dumb move now just because people have no patience or do not like Murray for whatever reason.
Murray is certain to miss the next season and probably wont be good for the post season. Its a question will he ever make the next step he has shown in the bubble and even will he come back on the same level as he was before the injury. Murray was never a gifted athlete compared to the rest of the league and now he will probably be even slower and worse at defense.
The average guy is out 8.5 months with an ACL injury. Sure Murray may struggle the rest of the year, but I would easily take a gamer like Murray struggling than anybody we are likely to get for him.
Alatan wrote:We are also going to be tight with cap space after the next season as MPJs extension comes up, and most of our other guys become free agents.
Butler has 2 years remaining on his contract after this year, our cap hit in 2 years would be $3.5 million higher on Butler. As for the other players, which other players? Morris is already under contract, NNaji is under contract, leaving Gordon and MPJ as the only guys we have to resign. Gordon is likely getting a contract around what he is making now, meaning that there should be plenty of room under the tax to extend MPJ. That is the great thing about the 25% max deals.
Truth of the matter is if Kroenke is not willing to pay the tax to keep the core of this team together for the next 5 years than he may as well sell the team. Money should not be a factor in any move right now.
Alatan wrote:The year after that is Jokics extension and if Murray doesnt come back at 100% its another season wasted. I doubt that Jokic would leave Denver but id rather not waste 1-2 years of his prime by waiting on Murray who might never be more than a borderline allstar.
He tore his ACL, not his achilles. 2 years from now you will likely forget that he ever had it or realize it killed his career. This is not a hip injury, that is going to happen over and over again, he is either recovered or not. If he can come back healthy he is going to be fine. If he cannot come back healthy than no team is going to trade for him.
Fact is the only guy that came back close to as athletic as he was previous to the injury seems to have been Lavine, but the good news is that Murray has a couple of huge skills that should carry through.
Alatan wrote:I also dont like the fit of him and MPJ. It makes our defense too weak so if we could trade him for a two way wing that can help us now id be up for it.
Our best defense of the year was starting Morris next to Murray, Barton at SF, MPJ at PF, and of course Jokic. Our defense since Murray has went down is actually not better than that defense. Murray isn't a great defender, but he was not the problem. Barton cannot guard undersized guards, Campazzo cannot guard good quick shooters, for that matter neither can Dozier or Morris. It was a hole left in our roster by trade Harris and Hampton. Every team has a weakness, we just forgot it while we had so much depth 18 months ago.
The thing is that Butler is not great guarding little guards either, that job is often left to the smaller guards on the teams he is on. He is best guarding the same guys that Gordon guards. While he is better than Gordon, we still have the same weakness.
Alatan wrote:As for Butler being old. Its correct, he does have a lot of mileage on him and thats why i was thinking that Miami would be willing to deal him. Ive been looking around on BBal ref for similar players to see how many minutes they played before they started to decline severely. Baring injuries I believe that Butler can play another 2 seasons at a high level after this one and 2 more seasons as a very good starter after that. I know Its not exactly science but there is a pattern there. First two seasons he would be worth a max contract and the other two he would be in a role similar to what Millsap provided to us or Iggy to the GSW. It would be an overpay but we would be capped out anyway. Nuggets are always going to need to pay more for talent that the big markets.
While minutes play a role in it, Butler also played 4 years in college, and age plays a role in it. Butler has had a lot of minor injuries throughout his career, and has missed a lot of games this year. He is past that age where it starts taking longer to recover from injuries and what used to cause a minor injury becomes a more major injury. There is a reason a lot of guys start retired at 34 and 35 years old, and usually it is not because they can't compete anymore, it is usually injuries adding up.
The common thread between guys who have somewhat recovered from ACL injuries are that they work hard and they are smart. Guys like Gallo, Lavine, and Lowry are not quit the same athletically, but they can shoot and have high basketball IQs. I think Murray turns into a very good spot up shooter and a better defender by the time he gets fully back, he will likely be a very good player but not star at this point.
I have more faith in Murray being healthy and effective player a year from now than I do in Butler being close to the same player 2 years from now. That is when we will be losing Jokic, when we have a roster full of aging players with bad contracts.
If we are going to trade Murray than I would prefer to trade him for a good guard prospect and a bad contract, whether that prospect is a pick or a good young player I think that is the much better option long term. Our front office has actually been a lot better at finding guard talent than anything, even RJ Hampton is tearing things up in Orlando this week. They need to find another one we can develop. Adding Butler and having him decline or miss half the games due to injuries is not a good plan to me.
I personally don't think we can or will trade Murray, but I think we can find ways to get a good cheap long term SG with big potential.
The Rebel wrote: this is the type of deal that kills potential dynasties. Butler is going to be 33 by the time next season starts, there is no way to know how much he has left or when he will be done. We do know that Murray has a long time left, we have a young core, no need to make a dumb move now just because people have no patience or do not like Murray for whatever reason.
Murray is certain to miss the next season and probably wont be good for the post season. Its a question will he ever make the next step he has shown in the bubble and even will he come back on the same level as he was before the injury. Murray was never a gifted athlete compared to the rest of the league and now he will probably be even slower and worse at defense.
The average guy is out 8.5 months with an ACL injury. Sure Murray may struggle the rest of the year, but I would easily take a gamer like Murray struggling than anybody we are likely to get for him. <snip> The common thread between guys who have somewhat recovered from ACL injuries are that they work hard and they are smart. Guys like Gallo, Lavine, and Lowry are not quit the same athletically, but they can shoot and have high basketball IQs. I think Murray turns into a very good spot up shooter and a better defender by the time he gets fully back, he will likely be a very good player but not star at this point.
I have more faith in Murray being healthy and effective player a year from now than I do in Butler being close to the same player 2 years from now. That is when we will be losing Jokic, when we have a roster full of aging players with bad contracts.
If we are going to trade Murray than I would prefer to trade him for a good guard prospect and a bad contract, whether that prospect is a pick or a good young player I think that is the much better option long term. Our front office has actually been a lot better at finding guard talent than anything, even RJ Hampton is tearing things up in Orlando this week. They need to find another one we can develop. Adding Butler and having him decline or miss half the games due to injuries is not a good plan to me.
I personally don't think we can or will trade Murray, but I think we can find ways to get a good cheap long term SG with big potential.
Murray has shown he can play hurting - and I'd rather gamble on him overcoming an ACL tear than bet he doesn't.
Modern medicine has made a lot of progress since 50 years ago when I tore my ACL & Miniscus. Without all the help Murray will get, I passed my Army physical 6 months later and went through basic training without trouble.
Coeur wrote:Not a chance you trade Murray at all time low value right now while injured. The trade value that may raise the most if they can have him play through the playoffs is Monte Morris.
Posters from other forums think they can steal a star because of the ACL injury, homers at work.
Don't see many poachers on the TnT board trying to steal Porter these days. They're starting to figure out what we've known all along.
NuggetsWY wrote:Are we ready to start a new Trade thread?
Why, what's wrong with this one ?
Not much and I don't really care. Some people get tired of huge threads. I think it has to do with how they look at them. I don't really know. Some have their settings to display newest posts first, some have them set to display last. Or maybe it is people that use phones versus computers. I've never asked.
NuggetsWY wrote:Are we ready to start a new Trade thread?
Why, what's wrong with this one ?
Not much and I don't really care. Some people get tired of huge threads. I think it has to do with how they look at them. I don't really know. Some have their settings to display newest posts first, some have them set to display last. Or maybe it is people that use phones versus computers. I've never asked.
Long ago the Realgm servers would struggle to deal with threads over 100 pages long for some reason, so all mods were told to lock all threads when they hit 100 pages. Since then it has been habit, but I am also not sure if it is still an issue with the servers.
Personally I don't care either way. I doubt the discussions we will have in a few weeks after the season will be anything similar to the ones we had a year or two ago.
