Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future

[Wolveswin]

Hornets:
Hayward + Rozier
FOR
Wiggins + Wiseman + #16 (2021 Grizzlies 1st)

Grizzlies:
Jonas Val + Melton* + 2021 1st + 2024 Warriors 1st (owed)
FOR
Rozier + Looney + #4 (2021 Wolves 1st)
*I can see Griz argument for Jones instead

Warriors:
Wiggins + Wiseman + Looney + #4 (2021 Wolves 1st)
FOR
J. Val + Hayward + Melton + 2024 Warriors 1st (returned)

Hornets get off the treadmill and 2022 tank around Ball and Wiseman and 2x 2021 1sts.

Grizzlies consolidate to Green or Kuminga as starting wing next to Morant, with JJJ at C and Clarke at F.

Warriors get a starting SF, starting C, and guard depth. Now they own all of their own 1sts — let Curry and core retire at own timing.

[gswhoops]

That’s really bad for GS and way too good for Memphis.

[Wolveswin]

That’s really bad for GS and way too good for Memphis.

I wouldn’t go that far.

Hayward + Rozier for Wiggins + Wiseman has been discussed many times. And most agree Warriors need to add their 2021 1st for value. In OP they save it and by way of Grizzlies, get enough value to Hornets.

So for Warriors is #4 for #13 (keeping own 1st) + 2024 1st Returned + JVal + Melton worth it?

I think so. I do value JVal as top 10 C discussion (top 15 for sure) and Melton is a quality young piece. If one thinks by 2024 draft Curry and core will be retired or very long in the tooth — that is also acquiring a very top end value owed 1st.

Here is a GB discussion on 2020/21 top 10 centers for reference...(if I shared link correctly)
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2074082&hilit=Valanciunas#p90356171

[E S V L]

If #4 is available, you can get from Memphis whatever you want, including picks, players, drugs, sex.

[mademan]

ya i dont think Memphis has the assets to get 4 (assets theyre willing to give up at least). I think the Hayward-Rozier portion is enough and is actually decent for both teams (if Rozier is ok with being a 30 min bench guard)

[vetmin]

Hornets:
Hayward + Rozier
FOR
Wiggins + Wiseman + #16 (2021 Grizzlies 1st)

Grizzlies:
Jonas Val + Melton* + 2021 1st + 2024 Warriors 1st (owed)
FOR
Rozier + Looney + #4 (2021 Wolves 1st)
*I can see Griz argument for Jones instead

Warriors:
Wiggins + Wiseman + Looney + #4 (2021 Wolves 1st)
FOR
J. Val + Hayward + Melton + 2024 Warriors 1st (returned)

Hornets get off the treadmill and 2022 tank around Ball and Wiseman and 2x 2021 1sts.

Grizzlies consolidate to Green or Kuminga as starting wing next to Morant, with JJJ at C and Clarke at F.

Warriors get a starting SF, starting C, and guard depth. Now they own all of their own 1sts — let Curry and core retire at own timing.

The broad strokes of this are fine to me. I myself made a thread awhile back suggesting the GSW/CHA part of this simply as a two-team trade (i.e., basically Hayward + Rozier <-> Wiggins + Wiseman + I think maybe GSW 2021 FRP), but MEM would be the ideal 3rd team for GSW to expand this to, so that they can get their 2024 FRP back. Most folks think of Wiseman and the MIN pick as GSW's only two major assets, but if they got that 2024 FRP back from MEM, that would allow them to potentially offer a Jrue Holiday-ish pick platter (i.e., alternating FRPs and FRP swaps as far into the future as possible) should any stars become available. I'd argue that that's the best thing GSW could do to keep itself perpetually positioned to capitalize on any stars that seem on the verge of shaking loose, since Wiseman and the MIN pick (or the player it turns into) both have potentially short lives as top-tier trade assets.

So yeah, I like this 3-team construction, but I think it's too rich for MEM, especially if the MIN 2021 FRP lands at #4 or 5. If MEM is dying for that pick and won't do the deal unless that part of happens, then GSW needs Clarke as part of the equation and probably more. I'll tinker around with a 'counter offer' later, but my gut says that there's a deal here even without the MIN pick. For instance, if GSW is in the lottery this year, I wonder MEM might see an immediate #13 pick or so from GSW as pretty close in value to the theoretical value of the 2024 GSW FRP.

[Wolveswin]

Hornets:
Hayward + Rozier
FOR
Wiggins + Wiseman + #16 (2021 Grizzlies 1st)

Grizzlies:
Jonas Val + Melton* + 2021 1st + 2024 Warriors 1st (owed)
FOR
Rozier + Looney + #4 (2021 Wolves 1st)
*I can see Griz argument for Jones instead

Warriors:
Wiggins + Wiseman + Looney + #4 (2021 Wolves 1st)
FOR
J. Val + Hayward + Melton + 2024 Warriors 1st (returned)

Hornets get off the treadmill and 2022 tank around Ball and Wiseman and 2x 2021 1sts.

Grizzlies consolidate to Green or Kuminga as starting wing next to Morant, with JJJ at C and Clarke at F.

Warriors get a starting SF, starting C, and guard depth. Now they own all of their own 1sts — let Curry and core retire at own timing.

The broad strokes of this are fine to me. I myself made a thread awhile back suggesting the GSW/CHA part of this simply as a two-team trade (i.e., basically Hayward + Rozier <-> Wiggins + Wiseman + I think maybe GSW 2021 FRP), but MEM would be the ideal 3rd team for GSW to expand this to, so that they can get their 2024 FRP back. Most folks think of Wiseman and the MIN pick as GSW's only two major assets, but if they got that 2024 FRP back from MEM, that would allow them to potentially offer a Jrue Holiday-ish pick platter (i.e., alternating FRPs and FRP swaps as far into the future as possible) should any stars become available. I'd argue that that's the best thing GSW could do to keep itself perpetually positioned to capitalize on any stars that seem on the verge of shaking loose, since Wiseman and the MIN pick (or the player it turns into) both have potentially short lives as top-tier trade assets.

So yeah, I like this 3-team construction, but I think it's too rich for MEM, especially if the MIN 2021 FRP lands at #4 or 5. If MEM is dying for that pick and won't do the deal unless that part of happens, then GSW needs Clarke as part of the equation and probably more. I'll tinker around with a 'counter offer' later, but my gut says that there's a deal here even without the MIN pick. For instance, if GSW is in the lottery this year, I wonder MEM might see an immediate #13 pick or so from GSW as pretty close in value to the theoretical value of the 2024 GSW FRP.

I see no reason why Memphis does this deal as third team unless it is to get a premium wing at 4 or 5 (so that Wolves 1st).

If you think they need to add more in value to OP, have that take. I don’t think so, but I can see that take as reasonable.

[Lenneth]

Don't see a reason for Warriors.

Hayward for Wiggins is pretty much a wash. Hayward might be a bit better on the offensive end, but Wiggins is better on the defensive end, is younger, and has a shorter contract. And, I like Wiggin's potential fit with Curry/Klay. Hayward might be a bit better player, but I don't see Warriors going out of their ways to get him for Wiggins.

Val for Wiseman is definitely a no go for Warriors. Like Vuc, he is not a good fit for Warriors, since he will not provide a dominating defense presence, and his offense does not fit with what Warriors are doing. Warriors would rather bank on Wiseman's development.

I don't think Warriors really want to dump Looney. He knows the system and does a lot of little things. Not that Warriors will hesitate to trade him for a blockbuster trade, but I don't see him being dumped for no reason either.

And, Warriors will choose 2021's 4th pick instead of 2024's Warriors pick.

[Wolveswin]

Don't see a reason for Warriors.

Hayward for Wiggins is pretty much a wash. Hayward might be a bit better on the offensive end, but Wiggins is better on the defensive end, is younger, and has a shorter contract. And, I like Wiggin's potential fit with Curry/Klay. Hayward might be a bit better player, but I don't see Warriors going out of their ways to get him for Wiggins.

Val for Wiseman is definitely a no go for Warriors. Like Vuc, he is not a good fit for Warriors, since he will not provide a dominating defense presence, and his offense does not fit with what Warriors are doing. Warriors would rather bank on Wiseman's development.

I don't think Warriors really want to dump Looney. He knows the system and does a lot of little things. Not that Warriors will hesitate to trade him for a blockbuster trade, but I don't see him being dumped for no reason either.

And, Warriors will choose 2021's 4th pick instead of 2024's Warriors pick.

Hayward for Wiggins isn’t a wash. Starting from that standpoint sets your opinion of this off on wrong foot.

That trade has been discussed many times before. And like most Wiggins+Wiseman trades — outside of San Fran — that package is debatable positive value. And I think fairly comfortable to say Hayward has positive value.

[Lenneth]

Don't see a reason for Warriors.

Hayward for Wiggins is pretty much a wash. Hayward might be a bit better on the offensive end, but Wiggins is better on the defensive end, is younger, and has a shorter contract. And, I like Wiggin's potential fit with Curry/Klay. Hayward might be a bit better player, but I don't see Warriors going out of their ways to get him for Wiggins.

Val for Wiseman is definitely a no go for Warriors. Like Vuc, he is not a good fit for Warriors, since he will not provide a dominating defense presence, and his offense does not fit with what Warriors are doing. Warriors would rather bank on Wiseman's development.

I don't think Warriors really want to dump Looney. He knows the system and does a lot of little things. Not that Warriors will hesitate to trade him for a blockbuster trade, but I don't see him being dumped for no reason either.

And, Warriors will choose 2021's 4th pick instead of 2024's Warriors pick.

Hayward for Wiggins isn’t a wash. Starting from that standpoint sets your opinion of this off on wrong foot.

That trade has been discussed many times before. And like most Wiggins+Wiseman trades — outside of San Fran — that package is debatable positive value. And I think fairly comfortable to say Hayward has positive value.

For those who didn't watch Warriors this season, people outside of SF, will say Hayward will be a much better player than Wiggins. And, I do understand that, since Wiggins built a negative reputation in Minny for 6 years. But those who watched Wiggins with Warriors are relatively satisfied. He is shooting 47.2%/38% 3pts/56.5 TS with Warriors instead of 44.7%/33.2% 3pts/53.6% TS in Minny, and he is guarding the best wing every night. Not saying he is not overpaid or anything, but he has been a good fit for Warriors, and I expect him to be a good fit with Curry/Klay. Of course, Warriors fans understand that one good year will not overwrite 6 bad years. That's why you rarely see Wiggins trade scenario from Warriors fans. But, that doesn't mean Warriors have to pay a premium to get Hayward just to match what people outside of SF see. They would rather use those assets for something else if they need to.

[Wolveswin]

Don't see a reason for Warriors.

Hayward for Wiggins is pretty much a wash. Hayward might be a bit better on the offensive end, but Wiggins is better on the defensive end, is younger, and has a shorter contract. And, I like Wiggin's potential fit with Curry/Klay. Hayward might be a bit better player, but I don't see Warriors going out of their ways to get him for Wiggins.

Val for Wiseman is definitely a no go for Warriors. Like Vuc, he is not a good fit for Warriors, since he will not provide a dominating defense presence, and his offense does not fit with what Warriors are doing. Warriors would rather bank on Wiseman's development.

I don't think Warriors really want to dump Looney. He knows the system and does a lot of little things. Not that Warriors will hesitate to trade him for a blockbuster trade, but I don't see him being dumped for no reason either.

And, Warriors will choose 2021's 4th pick instead of 2024's Warriors pick.

Hayward for Wiggins isn’t a wash. Starting from that standpoint sets your opinion of this off on wrong foot.

That trade has been discussed many times before. And like most Wiggins+Wiseman trades — outside of San Fran — that package is debatable positive value. And I think fairly comfortable to say Hayward has positive value.

For those who didn't watch Warriors this season, people outside of SF, will say Hayward will be a much better player than Wiggins. And, I do understand that, since Wiggins built a negative reputation in Minny for 6 years. But those who watched Wiggins with Warriors are relatively satisfied. He is shooting 47.2%/38% 3pts/56.5 TS with Warriors instead of 44.7%/33.2% 3pts/53.6% TS in Minny, and he is guarding the best wing every night. Not saying he is not overpaid or anything, but he has been a good fit for Warriors, and I expect him to be a good fit with Curry/Klay. Of course, Warriors fans understand that one good year will not overwrite 6 bad years. That's why you rarely see Wiggins trade scenario from Warriors fans. But, that doesn't mean Warriors have to pay a premium to get Hayward just to match what people outside of SF see. They would rather use those assets for something else if they need to.

And here starts the never ending circle discussion.

NBA has trade rules, so if Warriors are going to do a trade (hence discussion on a trade board) they have to add salary filler. Wiggins is about only filler — other than the complicated S&T of Oubre that has even more rules and takes, a) Oubre to be willing and b) receiving team to want Oubre. These are two things out of Warriors control.

Also out of Warriors control is Wiggins value as perceived by every NBA team outside of San Fran. As a fan and maybe even an organization, sure praise the “new Wiggins” and get on your hill with he “has changed his stripes.” No doubt this is your position you are negotiating from. Just doesn’t mean automatically and unequivocally any organization has to buy what you are selling.

Plenty of no trade Wiggins threads out there for review. Like the Wiseman for Wood or Wiseman + Looney for Turner. Those and more are also realistic options for Warriors this off-season. But if trading Wiggins as in OP (because he is only major salary filler on roster) don’t expect other clubs to value Wiggins as you do.

[Domejandro]

Remove Memphis, and it is more interesting.

[Wolveswin]

Remove Memphis, and it is more interesting.

Nah, that is a rehashed trade already done. The idea is adding the third team.

What does Rozier (18M expiring) + #4 get Warriors? Using Grizzlies as third team is not a consolidation trade for 1 costly asset. Rather keeping and getting all own 1sts for Warriors and a top 10-15 center out of the deal (plus promising youth). The third team makes this interesting.

[Lenneth]

Hayward for Wiggins isn’t a wash. Starting from that standpoint sets your opinion of this off on wrong foot.

That trade has been discussed many times before. And like most Wiggins+Wiseman trades — outside of San Fran — that package is debatable positive value. And I think fairly comfortable to say Hayward has positive value.

For those who didn't watch Warriors this season, people outside of SF, will say Hayward will be a much better player than Wiggins. And, I do understand that, since Wiggins built a negative reputation in Minny for 6 years. But those who watched Wiggins with Warriors are relatively satisfied. He is shooting 47.2%/38% 3pts/56.5 TS with Warriors instead of 44.7%/33.2% 3pts/53.6% TS in Minny, and he is guarding the best wing every night. Not saying he is not overpaid or anything, but he has been a good fit for Warriors, and I expect him to be a good fit with Curry/Klay. Of course, Warriors fans understand that one good year will not overwrite 6 bad years. That's why you rarely see Wiggins trade scenario from Warriors fans. But, that doesn't mean Warriors have to pay a premium to get Hayward just to match what people outside of SF see. They would rather use those assets for something else if they need to.

And here starts the never ending circle discussion.

NBA has trade rules, so if Warriors are going to do a trade (hence discussion on a trade board) they have to add salary filler. Wiggins is about only filler — other than the complicated S&T of Oubre that has even more rules and takes, a) Oubre to be willing and b) receiving team to want Oubre. These are two things out of Warriors control.

Also out of Warriors control is Wiggins value as perceived by every NBA team outside of San Fran. As a fan and maybe even an organization, sure praise the “new Wiggins” and get on your hill with he “has changed his stripes.” No doubt this is your position you are negotiating from. Just doesn’t mean automatically and unequivocally any organization has to buy what you are selling.

Plenty of no trade Wiggins threads out there for review. Like the Wiseman for Wood or Wiseman + Looney for Turner. Those and more are also realistic options for Warriors this off-season. But if trading Wiggins as in OP (because he is only major salary filler on roster) don’t expect other clubs to value Wiggins as you do.

And how many of those trade proposals are from Warriors fans? Not that many. It's generally other team's fans making Wiggins/Wiseman/Wolves pick, not Warriors fans. As I mentioned before, Warriors fans understand Wiggins' perceived trade value to other teams. That's why you don't see a lot of Warriors fans making a trade proposal involving Wiggins.

Warriors fans understand that Wiggins' 30 mils salary filler is needed to make a big trade. But at the same time, Warriors already won 3 championships with the current core, which means being in 4th-5th seeds in the West is meaningless. Many trade proposals involving players like Hayward, Wood, Turner for Warriors' major assets like Wiseman/Wolves pick may improve Warriors marginally in short term but nowhere near the championship contender. Warriors' goal is to win the championship. If they exhaust all their assets to get to 4th seed with no asset to improve the team, what good does it do to Warriors? Warriors would only make a deal that makes sense for them. If those deals are not present, they will just use picks to build for the future.

Then there is Klay. No matter what Warriors get, if Klay is not close to what he was, Warriors' run is over. If so, they better use their assets to draft rookies instead. I don't expect any major deal until Warriors figure out what kind of Klay will return.

Despite a good season with Warriors, he will be traded in a second, if a deal can put Warriors to the championship contender. If the deal doesn't, there is no reason for Warriors to trade Wiggins or their assets. Hayward, Val, and Melton definitely doesn't.

[Wolveswin]

For those who didn't watch Warriors this season, people outside of SF, will say Hayward will be a much better player than Wiggins. And, I do understand that, since Wiggins built a negative reputation in Minny for 6 years. But those who watched Wiggins with Warriors are relatively satisfied. He is shooting 47.2%/38% 3pts/56.5 TS with Warriors instead of 44.7%/33.2% 3pts/53.6% TS in Minny, and he is guarding the best wing every night. Not saying he is not overpaid or anything, but he has been a good fit for Warriors, and I expect him to be a good fit with Curry/Klay. Of course, Warriors fans understand that one good year will not overwrite 6 bad years. That's why you rarely see Wiggins trade scenario from Warriors fans. But, that doesn't mean Warriors have to pay a premium to get Hayward just to match what people outside of SF see. They would rather use those assets for something else if they need to.

And here starts the never ending circle discussion.

NBA has trade rules, so if Warriors are going to do a trade (hence discussion on a trade board) they have to add salary filler. Wiggins is about only filler — other than the complicated S&T of Oubre that has even more rules and takes, a) Oubre to be willing and b) receiving team to want Oubre. These are two things out of Warriors control.

Also out of Warriors control is Wiggins value as perceived by every NBA team outside of San Fran. As a fan and maybe even an organization, sure praise the “new Wiggins” and get on your hill with he “has changed his stripes.” No doubt this is your position you are negotiating from. Just doesn’t mean automatically and unequivocally any organization has to buy what you are selling.

Plenty of no trade Wiggins threads out there for review. Like the Wiseman for Wood or Wiseman + Looney for Turner. Those and more are also realistic options for Warriors this off-season. But if trading Wiggins as in OP (because he is only major salary filler on roster) don’t expect other clubs to value Wiggins as you do.

And how many of those trade proposals are from Warriors fans? Not that many. It's generally other team's fans making Wiggins/Wiseman/Wolves pick, not Warriors fans. As I mentioned before, Warriors fans understand Wiggins' perceived trade value to other teams. That's why you don't see a lot of Warriors fans making a trade proposal involving Wiggins.

Warriors fans understand that Wiggins' 30 mils salary filler is needed to make a big trade. But at the same time, Warriors already won 3 championships with the current core, which means being in 4th-5th seeds in the West is meaningless. Many trade proposals involving players like Hayward, Wood, Turner for Warriors' major assets like Wiseman/Wolves pick may improve Warriors marginally in short term but nowhere near the championship contender. Warriors' goal is to win the championship. If they exhaust all their assets to get to 4th seed with no asset to improve the team, what good does it do to Warriors? Warriors would only make a deal that makes sense for them. If those deals are not present, they will just use picks to build for the future.

Then there is Klay. No matter what Warriors get, if Klay is not close to what he was, Warriors' run is over. If so, they better use their assets to draft rookies instead. I don't expect any major deal until Warriors figure out what kind of Klay will return.

Despite a good season with Warriors, he will be traded in a second, if a deal can put Warriors to the championship contender. If the deal doesn't, there is no reason for Warriors to trade Wiggins or their assets. Hayward, Val, and Melton definitely doesn't.

That is a fair take. But that last sentence you don’t know that. If KD level actuations are Warriors fan expectations — be ready to be majorly let down. Wiseman has lost considerable to all value since driving off the lot, Wiggins is negative filler around the league, and if Wolves keep their 2021 — the Wolves owed 2022 1st takes a value hit (Wolves having a healthier full season of Towns/Beasley/Russell, improved Edwards, and adding top 3 1st). All stacks up for nothing in return close to KD level (or even same ballpark).

No doubt if all-in on 1 consolidated big name asset is your take — and that might not come until Klay tested and true — wait for that. But OP isn’t that. JVal is a great center, Hayward on Warriors would be major Wiggins upgrade, and like in OP, Warriors keep/regain all their 1sts (so not a sexy all chips for a big name player). This middle path just might make them a top 2 seed (with Healthy Kaly) AND they retain some of their assets.

[gswhoops]

Remove Memphis, and it is more interesting.

Nah, that is a rehashed trade already done. The idea is adding the third team.

What does Rozier (18M expiring) + #4 get Warriors? Using Grizzlies as third team is not a consolidation trade for 1 costly asset. Rather keeping and getting all own 1sts for Warriors and a top 10-15 center out of the deal (plus promising youth). The third team makes this interesting.

Would MUCH rather have Rozier and the #4 than anything Memphis can offer (short of Ja or JJJ).

[Wolveswin]

Remove Memphis, and it is more interesting.

Nah, that is a rehashed trade already done. The idea is adding the third team.

What does Rozier (18M expiring) + #4 get Warriors? Using Grizzlies as third team is not a consolidation trade for 1 costly asset. Rather keeping and getting all own 1sts for Warriors and a top 10-15 center out of the deal (plus promising youth). The third team makes this interesting.

Would MUCH rather have Rozier and the #4 than anything Memphis can offer (short of Ja or JJJ).

That is a personal choice. Fair statement. But JVal is everything and more than Rozier on court and position of need. And don’t forget the trade in entirety: JVal + #13 (keeping their 1st) + 2024 1st back + Melton.

[vagelis]

The Wiggins trade proposals threads are very interesting.
They all conclude that Wiggins is a negative asset and other teams will not accept the trade.
The same people suggest another trade the next day in order to come to the same conclusion again. And the same discussion continues with uncountable Wiggins trade proposal threads.
And we talk about a player who reached 10 thousand points in the league at age 26(first of his class and one of the youngest in NBA history) and one of the best( if not the best) perimeter defenders in the league.

[Topofthekey]

This is one of the weaker returns for Wiseman + #4

There have been numerous trades posted that all top what the Warriors are getting here

Pascal Siakam and Domantas Sabonis have all been proposed for Wiseman + #4

But here they get Hayward? Ugh, brutal

[WAKEANT]

Hayward for Wiggins isn’t a wash. Starting from that standpoint sets your opinion of this off on wrong foot.

That trade has been discussed many times before. And like most Wiggins+Wiseman trades — outside of San Fran — that package is debatable positive value. And I think fairly comfortable to say Hayward has positive value.

For those who didn't watch Warriors this season, people outside of SF, will say Hayward will be a much better player than Wiggins. And, I do understand that, since Wiggins built a negative reputation in Minny for 6 years. But those who watched Wiggins with Warriors are relatively satisfied. He is shooting 47.2%/38% 3pts/56.5 TS with Warriors instead of 44.7%/33.2% 3pts/53.6% TS in Minny, and he is guarding the best wing every night. Not saying he is not overpaid or anything, but he has been a good fit for Warriors, and I expect him to be a good fit with Curry/Klay. Of course, Warriors fans understand that one good year will not overwrite 6 bad years. That's why you rarely see Wiggins trade scenario from Warriors fans. But, that doesn't mean Warriors have to pay a premium to get Hayward just to match what people outside of SF see. They would rather use those assets for something else if they need to.

And here starts the never ending circle discussion.

NBA has trade rules, so if Warriors are going to do a trade (hence discussion on a trade board) they have to add salary filler. Wiggins is about only filler — other than the complicated S&T of Oubre that has even more rules and takes, a) Oubre to be willing and b) receiving team to want Oubre. These are two things out of Warriors control.

Also out of Warriors control is Wiggins value as perceived by every NBA team outside of San Fran. As a fan and maybe even an organization, sure praise the “new Wiggins” and get on your hill with he “has changed his stripes.” No doubt this is your position you are negotiating from. Just doesn’t mean automatically and unequivocally any organization has to buy what you are selling.

Plenty of no trade Wiggins threads out there for review. Like the Wiseman for Wood or Wiseman + Looney for Turner. Those and more are also realistic options for Warriors this off-season. But if trading Wiggins as in OP (because he is only major salary filler on roster) don’t expect other clubs to value Wiggins as you do.

Sounds like a "No deal". ...which is cool