NBA MVP Discussion '20-'21, Part 2 (Poll created 21 March '21)

[Doctor MJ]

In loss Jokic put up 32 points 9 boards . He fouls way too much and the lakers exploited that again

Same old story. Gasol/Dwight whoever can manhandle Jokic and no call. Whilst if one dares to breathe on AD he falls down and gets a call.

If only Malone could write letters to the league with the same pizzazz that the Lakers letter writers have perfected.

89-91 and Gasol fouls Jokic at least 3 times ...

Yeah, I want to add my "I saw it too!" to this.

First, that game against the Pelicans? Jokic totally hacked Zion on the last play. Should have been called for a foul. Not alleging any explicit bias against Jokic on the part of the refs.

But I remember seeing one particular play where Gasol shoved Jokic hard enough that Jokic's whole upper body twisted violently (he kept his feet though), and glaringly, after already having some debatable fouls prior to that point on the play. Stuck me as a situation where the roughs had categorized the match up as "We're just going to let them play" and they weren't prepared to react when Gasol took the brutality a step further. That's not okay.

The key thing to me is that when a lesser player with great physical strength is going up against a better player, you have to expect that he's going to just keep up-ing the physicality until the refs call it. No shade on Gasol for doing what he needs to do in that situation, but the refs need to note be complacent. They should never be surprised when a player like Gasol escalated on a player like Jokic, and they need to be ready to blow the whistle.

[levon]

Jokic got 4 free throws awarded to him yesterday on non-shooting fouls. Without those, he'd have 28 points on 28 shots. There was also a blatant blocking foul on the AD dunk attempt where Jokic was in the restricted area that would've given him his second early in the first quarter, the same foul that was called on AG (correctly) later in the game. In the series against the Lakers, he was putting up 21 and getting in foul trouble on the regular. Maybe there's a pattern there about how the Lakers defend and attack the Nuggets, and it's not a reflection of Jokic as a player, and it's not some conspiracy against him either? Occam's razor?

It's become increasingly difficult for me to compartmentalize my player fandom with the annoying fans of other players, because the player starts to feed into the entitlement. Like I love Jokic and Doncic, but HATE it when they go too far on foul phishing. There's this toxic feedback loop with the commentators and the fans and local reporters too that makes it worse. See Denver commentators for the biggest unabashed homerism in the league.

Maybe I'm just too old for this in basketball fandom years.

Is this the "blatant" blocking foul that you're talking about?

Watch on YouTube

Jokic is in the restricted area with the back of his foot - but he's allowed to be there if the offensive player initiates contact with his foot or knee, in which case it's a charge.

I've watched the replay a few times now and I'm still not certain if it's a block or charge. Either way I don't think this was a blatant non-call by the ref.

I just don't understand what is Jokic supposed to do here? Move out of the way? Is it forbidden for defensive player to be in restricted area? He didn't move in AD's way and fall down to try to draw charge. He was there before AD tried a dunk. It was good non call. It can't be offensive foul on AD because Jokic is in restricted area, and it is not foul on Jokic because he didn't move into AD's way.

This is a blocking foul. It was called a blocking foul on I believe Aaron Gordon later in the game. It didn't look egregious because Jokic isn't a fast mover and wasn't trying to recover from a mile away. To be clear, I don't blame the refs for not calling it. It happened fast and there was a lot to parse, and he's a superstar so keep him on the floor. The product is better that way.

But I'm pointing out that Jokic gets plenty of breaks from his style of play too. This constant persecution complex that some Jokic fans exhibit is lame. As a big, you're going to both get and dish more contact and get less calls. That's just how the NBA officiates.

[levon]

The takeaway is that fouls are less correlated to contact than what you'd expect. For example, Embiid probably gets hit just as much as Jokic but draws fouls at a higher rate, and that's because the nature of Embiid's lateral game highlights the hits, and the hits are debilitating enough for him to miss shots clearly. Drawing fouls is a superstar skill, arguably the most valuable superstar skill since it's the most efficient way to score.

But you're also kidding yourself if you think Jokic isn't getting away with the same under the radar contact that he's receiving.

[FinnTheHuman]

The takeaway is that fouls are less correlated to contact than what you'd expect. For example, Embiid probably gets hit just as much as Jokic but draws fouls at a higher rate, and that's because the nature of Embiid's lateral game highlights the hits, and the hits are debilitating enough for him to miss shots clearly. Drawing fouls is a superstar skill, arguably the most valuable superstar skill since it's the most efficient way to score.

But you're also kidding yourself if you think Jokic isn't getting away with the same under the radar contact that he's receiving.

No, the takeaway is that you are gonna make up whatever bs narrative just to avoid living with the fact that your team is getting an unfair advantage, and you not responding to my reply to you is very telling of that.

[levon]

I just don't understand what is Jokic supposed to do here? Move out of the way? Is it forbidden for defensive player to be in restricted area?

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to answer. What Jokic is supposed to do is play defense with his feet. The technique is to anticipate and square up to match the foot AD takes off on so that he can take the contact on perpendicularly. And because he's in the restricted area, he has to jump and use verticality. That would be good rim protection. For examples of poor technique, look to Javale, who will often turn his hips on drives and give up layups or foul the offensive player because he's not squared up.

Instead, because Jokic is slow and groundbound, he does nothing. In this case, I think it's a foul, but if it was a shifty guard, that would be a layup or an and-1.

[levon]

The takeaway is that fouls are less correlated to contact than what you'd expect. For example, Embiid probably gets hit just as much as Jokic but draws fouls at a higher rate, and that's because the nature of Embiid's lateral game highlights the hits, and the hits are debilitating enough for him to miss shots clearly. Drawing fouls is a superstar skill, arguably the most valuable superstar skill since it's the most efficient way to score.

But you're also kidding yourself if you think Jokic isn't getting away with the same under the radar contact that he's receiving.

No, the takeaway is that you are gonna make up whatever bs narrative just to avoid living with the fact that your team is getting an unfair advantage, and you not responding to my reply to you is very telling of that.

Is your response predicated on the actual basketball, or a long slant of the big baddy Lakers cheating for the last 60 years?

[BelgradeNugget]

Is this the "blatant" blocking foul that you're talking about?

Watch on YouTube

Jokic is in the restricted area with the back of his foot - but he's allowed to be there if the offensive player initiates contact with his foot or knee, in which case it's a charge.

I've watched the replay a few times now and I'm still not certain if it's a block or charge. Either way I don't think this was a blatant non-call by the ref.

I just don't understand what is Jokic supposed to do here? Move out of the way? Is it forbidden for defensive player to be in restricted area? He didn't move in AD's way and fall down to try to draw charge. He was there before AD tried a dunk. It was good non call. It can't be offensive foul on AD because Jokic is in restricted area, and it is not foul on Jokic because he didn't move into AD's way.

This is a blocking foul. It was called a blocking foul on I believe Aaron Gordon later in the game. It didn't look egregious because Jokic isn't a fast mover and wasn't trying to recover from a mile away. To be clear, I don't blame the refs for not calling it. It happened fast and there was a lot to parse, and he's a superstar so keep him on the floor. The product is better that way.

But I'm pointing out that Jokic gets plenty of breaks from his style of play too. This constant persecution complex that some Jokic fans exhibit is lame. As a big, you're going to both get and dish more contact and get less calls. That's just how the NBA officiates.

I will ask again how is Jokic suposed to defend here, move out of the way? Is defensive player alowed to be in restricted area? If you try to draw a charge it is defensive foul by the rules, but what if you are not trying to draw a charge but be in good defensive position. By your logic whenever a defensive player is in restricted area an offensive player can jump on him and get free throws.

[levon]

I will ask again how is Jokic suposed to defend here, move out of the way? Is defensive player alowed to be in restricted area? If you try to draw a charge it is defensive foul by the rules, but what if you are not trying to draw a charge but be in good defensive position. By your logic whenever a defensive player is in restricted area an offensive player can jump on him and get free throws.

I replied in a separate post, sorry about that, please refer to that. But watch the video again honestly. Jokic isn't camped out. Jokic is backtracking and then stops in AD's path, in the restricted area, and he even shifts his upper body to brace for contact (which is instinctive). You're acting like the dude was having coffee and cigarettes down there and AD ran into him.

[levon]

Also yes, what Doctor MJ said is correct, Marc shoved him a few times in a post-up. Those were fouls. Those wouldn't have resulted in free throws unless they exceeded the limit. Conversely, 4 free throws were very obviously awarded to Jokic that were _not_ shooting fouls, by any stretch. That was 4 real points. So I ask again, in aggregate, does anyone have an unfair advantage? Where does that show up empirically? Where did it show up empirically in past matchups?

[BelgradeNugget]

I just don't understand what is Jokic supposed to do here? Move out of the way? Is it forbidden for defensive player to be in restricted area?

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to answer. What Jokic is supposed to do is play defense with his feet. The technique is to anticipate and square up to match the foot AD takes off on so that he can take the contact on perpendicularly. And because he's in the restricted area, he has to jump and use verticality. That would be good rim protection. For examples of poor technique, look to Javale, who will often turn his hips on drives and give up layups or foul the offensive player because he's not squared up.

Instead, because Jokic is slow and groundbound, he does nothing. In this case, I think it's a foul, but if it was a shifty guard, that would be a layup or an and-1.

We agree that jumping and using verticality would have been good defense, and that as you said Jokic does nothing. He didn't try to move in front of AD to draw a charge he was in his place before AD jumped for the dunk.

[FinnTheHuman]

Also yes, what Doctor MJ said is correct, Marc shoved him a few times in a post-up. Those were fouls. Those wouldn't have resulted in free throws unless they exceeded the limit. Conversely, 4 free throws were very obviously awarded to Jokic that were _not_ shooting fouls, by any stretch. That was 4 real points. So I ask again, in aggregate, does anyone have an unfair advantage? Where does that show up empirically? Where did it show up empirically in past matchups?

Marc had 4 personal fouls, and he would've had at least 8 which were all blatantly obvious from all the ones I counted. Empirically, no player has ever been on the court with 8 personal fouls, but I guess Marc could've been the 1st ever to somehow pull that off?

[levon]

I just don't understand what is Jokic supposed to do here? Move out of the way? Is it forbidden for defensive player to be in restricted area?

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to answer. What Jokic is supposed to do is play defense with his feet. The technique is to anticipate and square up to match the foot AD takes off on so that he can take the contact on perpendicularly. And because he's in the restricted area, he has to jump and use verticality. That would be good rim protection. For examples of poor technique, look to Javale, who will often turn his hips on drives and give up layups or foul the offensive player because he's not squared up.

Instead, because Jokic is slow and groundbound, he does nothing. In this case, I think it's a foul, but if it was a shifty guard, that would be a layup or an and-1.

We agree that jumping and using verticality would have been good defense, and that as you said Jokic does nothing. He didn't try to move in front of AD to draw a charge he was in his place before AD jumped for the dunk.

What you're saying is a fair interpretation. I'm interpreting it as Jokic backtracking and stopping. If you swap out Jokic with another guy trying to draw a charge by stopping in semi-transition and the player sidestepping it and drawing contact with on the side of the body instead of directly, it would 100% be called a foul. Instead, Jokic backtracks and doesn't move laterally or sideways into ADs, and doesn't react fast enough to put his arms in a "charge" position, so the ref interprets as a no-call. But I'm saying both scenarios are equivalent: player stopped, in the restricted area, not direct contact.

[BelgradeNugget]

Also yes, what Doctor MJ said is correct, Marc shoved him a few times in a post-up. Those were fouls. Those wouldn't have resulted in free throws unless they exceeded the limit. Conversely, 4 free throws were very obviously awarded to Jokic that were _not_ shooting fouls, by any stretch. That was 4 real points. So I ask again, in aggregate, does anyone have an unfair advantage? Where does that show up empirically? Where did it show up empirically in past matchups?

Ok here is a big diference. If they didn't call shooting fouls on Jokic the Nuggets would still have position of the ball and a chance to score. If they did call fouls that Gasol committed Lakers would have been in bonus so every foul on Jokic would have been free throws anyway. On the other hand reffs took 3 pts away from Denver with fantom Campazzo foul. If you don't see the difference OK.

[BelgradeNugget]

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to answer. What Jokic is supposed to do is play defense with his feet. The technique is to anticipate and square up to match the foot AD takes off on so that he can take the contact on perpendicularly. And because he's in the restricted area, he has to jump and use verticality. That would be good rim protection. For examples of poor technique, look to Javale, who will often turn his hips on drives and give up layups or foul the offensive player because he's not squared up.

Instead, because Jokic is slow and groundbound, he does nothing. In this case, I think it's a foul, but if it was a shifty guard, that would be a layup or an and-1.

We agree that jumping and using verticality would have been good defense, and that as you said Jokic does nothing. He didn't try to move in front of AD to draw a charge he was in his place before AD jumped for the dunk.

What you're saying is a fair interpretation. I'm interpreting it as Jokic backtracking and stopping. If you swap out Jokic with another guy trying to draw a charge by stopping in semi-transition and the player sidestepping it and drawing contact with on the side of the body instead of directly, it would 100% be called a foul. Instead, Jokic backtracks and doesn't move laterally or sideways into ADs, and doesn't react fast enough to put his arms in a "charge" position, so the ref interprets as a no-call. But I'm saying both scenarios are equivalent: player stopped, in the restricted area, not direct contact.

Now we are in the area were in could be called both ways. But it is not clear non call. There were two similar situations near the end of game. Nuggets fast break MPJ was stumbled non call. Lakers fastbreak similar situation Caruso falls, gets call. Too many circumstances...

[levon]

Also yes, what Doctor MJ said is correct, Marc shoved him a few times in a post-up. Those were fouls. Those wouldn't have resulted in free throws unless they exceeded the limit. Conversely, 4 free throws were very obviously awarded to Jokic that were _not_ shooting fouls, by any stretch. That was 4 real points. So I ask again, in aggregate, does anyone have an unfair advantage? Where does that show up empirically? Where did it show up empirically in past matchups?

Ok here is a big diference. If they didn't call shooting fouls on Jokic the Nuggets would still have position of the ball and a chance to score. If they did call fouls that Gasol committed Lakers would have been in bonus so every foul on Jokic would have been free throws anyway. On the other hand reffs took 3 pts away from Denver with fantom Campazzo foul. If you don't see the difference OK.

Sure, there's a chain of interdependent events. But also, if Gasol picks up his 5th, he isn't going to keep picking up fouls and putting Jokic on the line, because he'd literally run out of fouls.

Now you're gonna make me talk about the Campazzo foul? Am I going to have to hear "5 10 Campazzo vs 6 10 AD" again?
Here:



AD's ankle has bent the other way because Campazzo's run into his leg. At this point AD is changing directions and trying to close out, so he's actually planning to jump to Porter's right side and contest with his right hand. It's not like he's not low in his stance ready to absorb Campazzo on a post up.

If you don't trust the screenshots, watch the "flop" video replay in slow motion.

Watch on YouTube

You seriously going to argue that's not a foul?

[donnieme]

It's not just Jokic. For some reason physicality doesn't get foul calls in today's game, it's finesse refs reward. AD and Embiid's foul drawing style. OTOH anyone who bodies up their defender is allowed to get mauled. We should realistically be having serious conversations about modern reffing styles beyond the lazy "soft" quotes that flood threads when this is brought up

[BelgradeNugget]

Also yes, what Doctor MJ said is correct, Marc shoved him a few times in a post-up. Those were fouls. Those wouldn't have resulted in free throws unless they exceeded the limit. Conversely, 4 free throws were very obviously awarded to Jokic that were _not_ shooting fouls, by any stretch. That was 4 real points. So I ask again, in aggregate, does anyone have an unfair advantage? Where does that show up empirically? Where did it show up empirically in past matchups?

Ok here is a big diference. If they didn't call shooting fouls on Jokic the Nuggets would still have position of the ball and a chance to score. If they did call fouls that Gasol committed Lakers would have been in bonus so every foul on Jokic would have been free throws anyway. On the other hand reffs took 3 pts away from Denver with fantom Campazzo foul. If you don't see the difference OK.

Sure, there's a chain of interdependent events. But also, if Gasol picks up his 5th, he isn't going to keep picking up fouls and putting Jokic on the line, because he'd literally run out of fouls.

Now you're gonna make me talk about the Campazzo foul? Am I going to have to hear "5 10 Campazzo vs 6 10 AD" again?
Here:



AD's ankle has bent the other way because Campazzo's run into his leg. At this point AD is changing directions and trying to close out, so he's actually planning to jump to Porter's right side and contest with his right hand. It's not like he's not low in his stance ready to absorb Campazzo on a post up.

If you don't trust the screenshots, watch the "flop" video replay in slow motion.

Watch on YouTube

You seriously going to argue that's not a foul?

I'm not talking about "5 10 Campazzo vs 6 10 AD". I'm talking about two players running at each other. Was it moving screen. I don't see it. Was it AD denying Campazzo freedom of movement. No. Did one player had ball so the other runned into him and committed a foul. No. Two players colided it should't be faul on any of them.

[levon]

Ok here is a big diference. If they didn't call shooting fouls on Jokic the Nuggets would still have position of the ball and a chance to score. If they did call fouls that Gasol committed Lakers would have been in bonus so every foul on Jokic would have been free throws anyway. On the other hand reffs took 3 pts away from Denver with fantom Campazzo foul. If you don't see the difference OK.

Sure, there's a chain of interdependent events. But also, if Gasol picks up his 5th, he isn't going to keep picking up fouls and putting Jokic on the line, because he'd literally run out of fouls.

Now you're gonna make me talk about the Campazzo foul? Am I going to have to hear "5 10 Campazzo vs 6 10 AD" again?
Here:



AD's ankle has bent the other way because Campazzo's run into his leg. At this point AD is changing directions and trying to close out, so he's actually planning to jump to Porter's right side and contest with his right hand. It's not like he's not low in his stance ready to absorb Campazzo on a post up.

If you don't trust the screenshots, watch the "flop" video replay in slow motion.

Watch on YouTube

You seriously going to argue that's not a foul?

I'm not talking about "5 10 Campazzo vs 6 10 AD". I'm talking about two players running at each other. Was it moving screen. I don't see it. Was it AD denying Campazzo freedom of movement. No. Did one player had ball so the other runned into him and committed a foul. No. Two players colided it should't be faul on any of them.

Okay, well if an offensive player running into a defensive player trying to close out is not a foul in your rulebook, feel free to pen a letter to the NBA. But that's a foul in the NBA, and it has nothing to do with their jerseys or heights or backgrounds. If I ran into the side of your knee with a low center of gravity as you're putting pressure on it to take off, you'd probably feel differently.

[Ballerhogger]

Also yes, what Doctor MJ said is correct, Marc shoved him a few times in a post-up. Those were fouls. Those wouldn't have resulted in free throws unless they exceeded the limit. Conversely, 4 free throws were very obviously awarded to Jokic that were _not_ shooting fouls, by any stretch. That was 4 real points. So I ask again, in aggregate, does anyone have an unfair advantage? Where does that show up empirically? Where did it show up empirically in past matchups?

when Gasol intentional fouled him late in 4th but jokic got 2 free throws. What marc did was text book intentional foul. those were huge for nuggets

[Ballerhogger]

Sure, there's a chain of interdependent events. But also, if Gasol picks up his 5th, he isn't going to keep picking up fouls and putting Jokic on the line, because he'd literally run out of fouls.

Now you're gonna make me talk about the Campazzo foul? Am I going to have to hear "5 10 Campazzo vs 6 10 AD" again?
Here:



AD's ankle has bent the other way because Campazzo's run into his leg. At this point AD is changing directions and trying to close out, so he's actually planning to jump to Porter's right side and contest with his right hand. It's not like he's not low in his stance ready to absorb Campazzo on a post up.

If you don't trust the screenshots, watch the "flop" video replay in slow motion.

Watch on YouTube

You seriously going to argue that's not a foul?

I'm not talking about "5 10 Campazzo vs 6 10 AD". I'm talking about two players running at each other. Was it moving screen. I don't see it. Was it AD denying Campazzo freedom of movement. No. Did one player had ball so the other runned into him and committed a foul. No. Two players colided it should't be faul on any of them.

Okay, well if an offensive player running into a defensive player trying to close out is not a foul in your rulebook, feel free to pen a letter to the NBA. But that's a foul in the NBA, and it has nothing to do with their jerseys or heights or backgrounds. If I ran into the side of your knee with a low center of gravity as you're putting pressure on it to take off, you'd probably feel differently.

at :33 he sticks his leg out. Thats clear as day it wasnt a flop. Watch it in .25 speed.