OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins

[2018C3]

Brady is a once in a lifetime anomaly, and really cant be used in any argument in either direction. The guy is most likely the best nfl player ever at the most important and most difficult offensive position.

I have him in the same NFL tier of greats, that I hold MJ in within the NBA.

[Jeffster81]

Brady is a once in a lifetime anomaly, and really cant be used in any argument in either direction. The guy is most likely the best nfl player ever at the most important and most difficult offensive position.

I have him in the same NFL tier of greats, that I hold MJ in within the NBA.

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

[Hold That]

Brady is a once in a lifetime anomaly, and really cant be used in any argument in either direction. The guy is most likely the best nfl player ever at the most important and most difficult offensive position.

I have him in the same NFL tier of greats, that I hold MJ in within the NBA.

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

Bill can only get credit for making Tom Brady if he can make another perineal pro bowl QB. So far he has not, let’s see what he does with Mac Jones. Brady was underrated the early start of his career and throughout college despite looking worlds better than Drew Henson who had crazy hype behind him at Michigan. Bill wanted to trade Brady so Jimmy G can take over and we see what’s happening in SF with Jimmy and shannahan is suppose to be the QB guru. Tom has a super bowl ring without Bill.. belicheck was a failure with the browns before going to the patriots, Tom Brady made him if you ask me. Brady had so many comeback wins for Michigan and carried that into the NFL and built his legacy on being the comeback kid.

Tom has already proven he doesn’t need Bill, yet Bill hasn’t proven he doesn’t need Tom. If Bill can’t get it done with a former MVP in Cam, or with the most accurate QB in college football in Mac Jones who’s touted as Tom Brady lite, well get a clear idea on who made who.

[bearadonisdna]

Brady is a once in a lifetime anomaly, and really cant be used in any argument in either direction. The guy is most likely the best nfl player ever at the most important and most difficult offensive position.

I have him in the same NFL tier of greats, that I hold MJ in within the NBA.

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

Bill can only get credit for making Tom Brady if he can make another perineal pro bowl QB. So far he has not, let’s see what he does with Mac Jones. Brady was underrated the early start of his career and throughout college despite looking worlds better than Drew Henson who had crazy hype behind him at Michigan. Bill wanted to trade Brady so Jimmy G can take over and we see what’s happening in SF with Jimmy and shannahan is suppose to be the QB guru. Tom has a super bowl ring without Bill.. belicheck was a failure with the browns before going to the patriots, Tom Brady made him if you ask me. Brady had so many comeback wins for Michigan and carried that into the NFL and built his legacy on being the comeback kid.

Tom has already proven he doesn’t need Bill, yet Bill hasn’t proven he doesn’t need Tom. If Bill can’t get it done with a former MVP in Cam, or with the most accurate QB in college football in Mac Jones who’s touted as Tom Brady lite, well get a clear idea on who made who.

The case is closed.
1 year removed Tom got another super bowl.
Right now bill looks to be the 7-9 output that Brady elevated to super bowl champion.

[sco]

I think there is no pressure to start Fields until he is "ready". And by that I mean, they will likely assess that during camp and preseason. He doesn't need to show he's better than Dalton, but he likely needs to show that he isn't going to lose games for them. I expect a scenario where Dalton starts the first 2-5 games, depending on performance...unless the Bears are playing great, I could see Fields coming in then (ideally after the bye week if not too late so he has 2 weeks to prepare). I could see him playing week 1 on gimmick plays like Hill in NO.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

Bill can only get credit for making Tom Brady if he can make another perineal pro bowl QB. So far he has not, let’s see what he does with Mac Jones. Brady was underrated the early start of his career and throughout college despite looking worlds better than Drew Henson who had crazy hype behind him at Michigan. Bill wanted to trade Brady so Jimmy G can take over and we see what’s happening in SF with Jimmy and shannahan is suppose to be the QB guru. Tom has a super bowl ring without Bill.. belicheck was a failure with the browns before going to the patriots, Tom Brady made him if you ask me. Brady had so many comeback wins for Michigan and carried that into the NFL and built his legacy on being the comeback kid.

Tom has already proven he doesn’t need Bill, yet Bill hasn’t proven he doesn’t need Tom. If Bill can’t get it done with a former MVP in Cam, or with the most accurate QB in college football in Mac Jones who’s touted as Tom Brady lite, well get a clear idea on who made who.

The case is closed.
1 year removed Tom got another super bowl.
Right now bill looks to be the 7-9 output that Brady elevated to super bowl champion.

I'd still say it's slightly more complex than that. I was a Brady GOAT skeptic, but he proved it with TB. He's unquestioned GOAT.

The thing is I think Belicheck is probably still the coaching GOAT. But relative to a QB, a coach just doesnt have as big of an impact.

They were perfect to each other, and in the real world, absent hypotheticals, they made each other and cemented each other's legacies.

[dougthonus]

Nothing is a given or guarunteed in sports. I think most organizations go with whatever usually gives you the best results in most cases, and typically having your rookie QB sit for a couple of weeks before tossing him out there is usually garners better results than throwing him into the wolves week 1.

Without rehashing everything, because I just simply disagree that the arguments you made outweigh the arguments I made and don't want to get into a repeat loop, this ultimately is what I think is simply wrong. It is conventional wisdom that your view is correct. I agree that you will find no shortage of NFL experts espousing this view either.

I think just like conventional wisdom in the NBA was not to shoot so many 3s 20 years ago or conventional wisdom in MLB was against money ball, or all kinds of other things we've later shown to be wrong with more knowledge and study, that this is one of those things that isn't right, but people have it in their head that it is.

[dougthonus]

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

Brady is more or less viewed as the undisputed best QB ever.
Brady's Win/Loss record: 230-71
Belichick's Win/Loss record without Brady: 61-72

Given what you know about the importance of the QB in the NFL, do you think it is more likely that Brady made Belichick or Belichick made Brady. If you were to look at the success of every head coach / QB / team in the league, do you see head coaches that jump from team to team and make them elite, or do you see QBs that can move from team to team and make them elite?

We literally just saw Brady move from an elite team to an average team and his elite team became average and the average team he went to became elite. There should be no one rationally arguing that it was Belichick ever. He always got 10x the credit he deserved. If you just looked at the context of the league, it should have been obvious to everyone that having Brady was the difference maker, but for whatever reason it wasn't. I don't know how anyone fails to see how obvious it is now.

Belichick was an amazing coach when he had literally the best QB in the history of football playing on a team friendly contract his entire career and not even chewing up the cap space of a normal elite QB. How many coaches would be great in that situation? A whole heck of a lot.

[dougthonus]

I'd still say it's slightly more complex than that. I was a Brady GOAT skeptic, but he proved it with TB. He's unquestioned GOAT.

The thing is I think Belicheck is probably still the coaching GOAT. But relative to a QB, a coach just doesnt have as big of an impact.

They were perfect to each other, and in the real world, absent hypotheticals, they made each other and cemented each other's legacies.

61-72 without Tom Brady.

I believe he's had one winning season in seven tries without Brady.

How many coaches do you think would have been amazingly successful with the greatest QB of all time playing on a deal that paid him outside the top five paid QBs in the league virtually his entire career allowing the team to load up on other positions?

Maybe Belichick is the GOAT coach, but I'd love to see him having a winning record without the GOAT QB/NFL player on a team friendly deal before arguing it.

[TheStig]

Brady is a once in a lifetime anomaly, and really cant be used in any argument in either direction. The guy is most likely the best nfl player ever at the most important and most difficult offensive position.

I have him in the same NFL tier of greats, that I hold MJ in within the NBA.

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

Believe it or not, Bill coached other quarterbacks and none of them were ever as good as TB. I don't think any was ever a pro bowler under him. So I don't see how he's the king maker. But he's got mac jones. If Mac turns into a perennial probowler, I could be wrong.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Brady is a once in a lifetime anomaly, and really cant be used in any argument in either direction. The guy is most likely the best nfl player ever at the most important and most difficult offensive position.

I have him in the same NFL tier of greats, that I hold MJ in within the NBA.

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

Your opinion is the exact opposite of how things played out.

Tom Brady just won a superbowl without Belichick. Belichick has not won anything without Brady.

Phil Jackson has won a lot of championships without MJ, something MJ hasn't done without Phil.

[bearadonisdna]

Bill can only get credit for making Tom Brady if he can make another perineal pro bowl QB. So far he has not, let’s see what he does with Mac Jones. Brady was underrated the early start of his career and throughout college despite looking worlds better than Drew Henson who had crazy hype behind him at Michigan. Bill wanted to trade Brady so Jimmy G can take over and we see what’s happening in SF with Jimmy and shannahan is suppose to be the QB guru. Tom has a super bowl ring without Bill.. belicheck was a failure with the browns before going to the patriots, Tom Brady made him if you ask me. Brady had so many comeback wins for Michigan and carried that into the NFL and built his legacy on being the comeback kid.

Tom has already proven he doesn’t need Bill, yet Bill hasn’t proven he doesn’t need Tom. If Bill can’t get it done with a former MVP in Cam, or with the most accurate QB in college football in Mac Jones who’s touted as Tom Brady lite, well get a clear idea on who made who.

The case is closed.
1 year removed Tom got another super bowl.
Right now bill looks to be the 7-9 output that Brady elevated to super bowl champion.

I'd still say it's slightly more complex than that. I was a Brady GOAT skeptic, but he proved it with TB. He's unquestioned GOAT.

The thing is I think Belicheck is probably still the coaching GOAT. But relative to a QB, a coach just doesnt have as big of an impact.

They were perfect to each other, and in the real world, absent hypotheticals, they made each other and cemented each other's legacies.

Sure it’s more complex than that .
Just to be clear my response was not about a goat debate or discussion.

So regarding bills current value , sure it’s more complex than just the stated current turn of events.

But adding to that there is also the garrapolo over Brady evaluation where as football wise, bill sees Brady as not good jimmy while Tom still playing at an elite level even years later

[TheStig]

Brady is a once in a lifetime anomaly, and really cant be used in any argument in either direction. The guy is most likely the best nfl player ever at the most important and most difficult offensive position.

I have him in the same NFL tier of greats, that I hold MJ in within the NBA.

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

And BTW, many call either Tim Duncan or Karl Malone the greatest PF ever. Were they not because they were coached by Pop and Sloan their entire careers? (Yes I know Malone played one year as the 3rd option in LA, which was a disappointment).

[Dresden]

I find in hard to separate what Brady did from what Belichek did. Brady is almost without doubt the best QB ever. But Belichek was also smart enough to maximize his effectiveness by putting in a system that played to his strengths, and then building rosters that could perform in that system. It was a perfect match.

Could Belichek have won with Dan Marino or Dan Fouts or Brett Favre? We don't know. Can Brady win outside of the Pats system? Yes, although he got to cherry pick which team he went to. Put him on a random team in the NFL, and I wonder how long it would take Brady to turn them into winners.

If I had to weight it, I'd say the Pats success was more due to Brady than to Belichek. But each thrived off of being with each other, just as MJ thrived off being with PJ, and vice versa.

[dougthonus]

I find in hard to separate what Brady did from what Belichek did. Brady is almost without doubt the best QB ever. But Belichek was also smart enough to maximize his effectiveness by putting in a system that played to his strengths, and then building rosters that could perform in that system. It was a perfect match.

Or, hear me out here for a minute, if you have the greatest QB in the history of the world whom is also willing to play at a salary way below his worth for his entire career, that pretty much any somewhat competent noob could put together a good roster. It actually is pretty easy to separate these guys.

Could Belichek have won with Dan Marino or Dan Fouts or Brett Favre? We don't know.

Well we know in eight seasons he was a failure without Brady. Could he also have been solid if he had some different legendary quarterback playing on a discount contract? Yeah, I guess, but is that a special trait of his?

Can Brady win outside of the Pats system? Yes, although he got to cherry pick which team he went to. Put him on a random team in the NFL, and I wonder how long it would take Brady to turn them into winners.

The Bucs were 7-9 before he got there, and more or less the only major upgrade to the team was swapping Winston out with Brady. So yeah, he kind of did get thrown onto a "random" team. This wasn't KD joining the 73 win Warriors.

If I had to weight it, I'd say the Pats success was more due to Brady than to Belichek. But each thrived off of being with each other, just as MJ thrived off being with PJ, and vice versa.

There is a mountain of evidence that Belichick thrived due to Brady and relatively little evidence the other way. Elite QBs are shown repeatedly to make massive differences in outcomes whereas coaches are not. Before looking at their situation individually, without knowing anything about either guy, the base assumption should be Brady gets the lions share of the credit based on what we know of the NFL as a whole.

Looking at what both have done without each other could not possibly have made this any more clear either. Brady won the superbowl in one try at an age where he was still well past his prime by joining a team that was below .500 when he got there and he was the only meaningful upgrade. Tom Brady turned a non playoff team into a superbowl champion by his arrival.

Belichick has a below .500 record with one playoff appearance without Brady in 130 games played (8 seasons) which is more than enough sample size to suggest that he does not move the needle.

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

Call me crazy, and yes I've seen all the evidence, but I'm still a Brady GOAT skeptic. I don't know why but I'm just not wowed when I watch him. The smartest player? Maybe. The luckiest player? perhaps. The most talented? Eh. But what a resume.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

Brady is more or less viewed as the undisputed best QB ever.
Brady's Win/Loss record: 230-71
Belichick's Win/Loss record without Brady: 61-72

Given what you know about the importance of the QB in the NFL, do you think it is more likely that Brady made Belichick or Belichick made Brady. If you were to look at the success of every head coach / QB / team in the league, do you see head coaches that jump from team to team and make them elite, or do you see QBs that can move from team to team and make them elite?

We literally just saw Brady move from an elite team to an average team and his elite team became average and the average team he went to became elite. There should be no one rationally arguing that it was Belichick ever. He always got 10x the credit he deserved. If you just looked at the context of the league, it should have been obvious to everyone that having Brady was the difference maker, but for whatever reason it wasn't. I don't know how anyone fails to see how obvious it is now.

Belichick was an amazing coach when he had literally the best QB in the history of football playing on a team friendly contract his entire career and not even chewing up the cap space of a normal elite QB. How many coaches would be great in that situation? A whole heck of a lot.

Yes the relative importance of coaches pales in comparison to QBs, but all we have to do is look around at the relative success of QBs who were equally or more talented than Brady on pure skills and see that Bellichick did far more than his coaching contemporaries.

Not to totally dismiss his Cleveland years, but to take out his Brady years is a little disengenous based on how little is left after that. Just because his best years correlated with Brady doesnt mean it was the sole causation. He was a great coach/GM. And he got lucky. No one does it without a star QB, of course.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

Call me crazy, and yes I've seen all the evidence, but I'm still a Brady GOAT skeptic. I don't know why but I'm just not wowed when I watch him. The smartest player? Maybe. The luckiest player? perhaps. The most talented? Eh. But what a resume.

While you can argue the pure skillset, I find hypothetical discussions around GOATs a little pointless. Yes the stars have to align. If we wanted a parallel universe where Brady landed in Chicago or NYJ, would he be the Goat? Very likely not. But he did and that's the real world.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

Brady is a once in a lifetime anomaly, and really cant be used in any argument in either direction. The guy is most likely the best nfl player ever at the most important and most difficult offensive position.

I have him in the same NFL tier of greats, that I hold MJ in within the NBA.

I can never call Brady the "goat" for the simple reason NE, ie Belichick made him, where as MJ made Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Brady was basically on his way to becoming a journeyman QB had Mo Lewis not gotten stupid. I'd consider Brady one of the best to play but I can never call him GOAT.

Your opinion is the exact opposite of how things played out.

Tom Brady just won a superbowl without Belichick. Belichick has not won anything without Brady.

Phil Jackson has won a lot of championships without MJ, something MJ hasn't done without Phil.

I don't think the Jackson comparison is quite fair. What happened with Phil would be like if once Brady left NE, Bellichick also left and then went to coach Houston or Kansas City.

[Susan]

Who gives a **** about Brady or Bill?

The RInger has done quite a bit on Fields already.

Pre Draft: https://www.theringer.com/2021/4/14/22383093/justin-fields-draft-stock-narratives-pro-day

Another narrative that has stuck with Fields is that he doesn’t love football. Two weeks ago, former NFL QB and current ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky referenced NFL sources who’d expressed concerns over Fields’s work ethic, stating he’d heard Fields is “a last-guy-in, first-guy-out type of quarterback,” and there are concerns over whether he has the “desire to go be a great quarterback” or only “a desire to be a big-time athlete.”

There doesn’t seem to be any reason to think Fields lacks motivation. In fact there is plenty of evidence of the opposite. Fields was the most prominent player advocating for the Big Ten to play a fall 2020 college football season after the league initially canceled it because of the pandemic. He could have easily opted not to play since at the time he was widely considered the upcoming draft’s no. 2 QB prospect; instead, he petitioned to play. As he led Ohio State to the College Football Playoff, he shook off a huge hit that injured his ribs, necessitating pain-killing injections for him to return to the game. He went on to throw four more touchdowns (finishing with six total) and lead the Buckeyes into the national title game.

Avery called any condemnation of Fields’s work ethic “patently false.” Last year, when the pandemic upended football players’ offseason training routines in March and April, Fields joined Avery for workouts, driving an hour and a half to Avery’s QB Takeover practice fields in Atlanta.

“I don’t think anybody who’s had any real time around him would say that Justin wasn’t a hard worker or wasn’t putting in the work necessary,” Avery said.

After making his comments, Orlovsky spoke with Beck and an Ohio State assistant to learn their thoughts on Fields’s drive and issued an apology the next day. Orlovsky also told NBC Sports’ Peter King that he even reached out to Fields. But the issue with Orlovsky’s comments was that he flung them into public circulation without interrogating why his NFL sources might believe them in the first place.

Post Draft: https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2021/5/5/22420164/justin-fields-nfl-draft-bears-quarterback-redemption

“One of the best feelings in the world would be ‘Hey, we’re rolling, we’re playing really good football, we’re winning,’ and we’re looking over there and we’re seeing this guy and we all know—everyone in the building knows—that hey, we got a guy,” Pace said.

Patience in bringing Fields along, too, is a tacit admission of what went wrong with Trubisky. Chicago hired Nagy, an offense-first coach from the Andy Reid tree, in 2018 to support Trubisky and brought in a coaching staff stuffed with former quarterbacks including Lazor, John DeFilippo, Mark Helfrich, Dave Ragone, and Brad Childress. Pace invested in the offense by signing players like wide receivers Allen Robinson II and Taylor Gabriel and tight end Trey Burton and drafting ones like running back David Montgomery and wide receiver Anthony Miller. Still, Trubisky was largely considered raw and overdrafted, was still asked to start early in his rookie season, and was then denied some consistency when the Bears cycled through three offensive coordinators, three play-callers, and two quarterbacks coaches in his four seasons. There’s a different feeling surrounding the drafting of Fields, both considering the cost and because, while Trubisky was viewed as a reach, Fields was seen by many draft experts as one of the best prospects in his class, who fell mostly due to questions about processing speed that weren’t necessarily fair. The Bears also seem determined not to force things along too quickly this time.

Considering what we saw from the Bears at the end of the year last year, there's enough around Fields to be successful. Robinson/Mooney/Montgomery/Kmet, a strong inside on the o-line and Jenkins on the left side.