The Around The NBA Thread

[ZOMG]

Anyone who gives a damn about Westbrook's rebounding numbers is a fool. In the Pacers game he had 4 offensive boards and 17 (!!!) defensive ones in 40 minutes. Pure stat padding. I bet noboody else is allowed to pick up uncontested defensive rebounds when Russ is playing,

[Ice Man]

The Corpse of Iggy makes PWill look like Russ. In 22 minutes as a starter last night, the Corpse of Iggy went 0/0/2. Pat Riley will have some apologizing to do at the end of this season for the fourth-rate squad that he assembled around his strong core of Butler the two way wing, Bam the two way big, and Duncan Robinson the elite shooter.

[sco]

The Corpse of Iggy makes PWill look like Russ. In 22 minutes as a starter last night, the Corpse of Iggy went 0/0/2. Pat Riley will have some apologizing to do at the end of this season for the fourth-rate squad that he assembled around his strong core of Butler the two way wing, Bam the two way big, and Duncan Robinson the elite shooter.

I think losing Olynyk hurt them...dude has been a rich man's Lauri. Hoping he steals Lauri's spotlight in FA.

[drosestruts]

Anyone who gives a damn about Westbrook's rebounding numbers is a fool. In the Pacers game he had 4 offensive boards and 17 (!!!) defensive ones in 40 minutes. Pure stat padding. I bet noboody else is allowed to pick up uncontested defensive rebounds when Russ is playing,

There's benefit to having big men box out and allow the guard to grab the rebound, it can spark fast break opportunities. You don't get the weird 3-second pause where the big man is looking for the guard allowing the defense to get back and get set, switch if they have to, etc.

Westbrook has played with guys like Steven Adams and Robin Lopez who are great at boxing out their opponents and letting someone else grab the rebound.

I do think there's a big difference in the value of an uncontested rebound vs a contested rebound, and their are stat sites that track that.

Another thing though, 4 offensive rebounds is a lot, for anybody. Capela leads the league in offensive rebounds grabbing 4.7 a game.

So I guess, yes, Russ' rebounding numbers are inflated due to his teammates focusing on boxing out instead of grabbing the boards themselves, but their is strategy to it in that it allows Washington to attack quicker on offense, and has proven by his assist numbers, Westbrook is finding open teammates when Washington is pushing the ball and getting the defense on their heels. If he was grabbing the boards then pausing or slowly coming up court it would seem like more egregious stat padding.

I guess it's just semantics, but when it's part of a strategy that's clearly having a positive effect on the team's performance I don't like to use stat-padding has that seems like a negative phrase. But I am willing to admit that the team's strategy to rebounds does inflate Westbrook's rebounding numbers.

[Hangtime84]

The Corpse of Iggy makes PWill look like Russ. In 22 minutes as a starter last night, the Corpse of Iggy went 0/0/2. Pat Riley will have some apologizing to do at the end of this season for the fourth-rate squad that he assembled around his strong core of Butler the two way wing, Bam the two way big, and Duncan Robinson the elite shooter.

I think losing Olynyk hurt them...dude has been a rich man's Lauri. Hoping he steals Lauri's spotlight in FA.

Potential vs consistency. Olynyk got that

[Ice Man]

Good guards tend to be good rebounders. Even little Steph nabs 6 boards per 36 minutes. Meanwhile, 6' 8" Andrew Wiggins, allegedly a super-elite athlete, gets 4.5 boards per 36. Low motor, low awareness.

So yeah, I credit Russ for his boards, although of course they are inflated by how each of his teams grant him the uncontested defensive rebounds. But his greatest strength is passing. If he were to shoot less and be more defensively disciplined, man would be something. In addition to his motor and athleticism, the guy has genuinely great vision.

[Red8911]

Anyone who gives a damn about Westbrook's rebounding numbers is a fool. In the Pacers game he had 4 offensive boards and 17 (!!!) defensive ones in 40 minutes. Pure stat padding. I bet noboody else is allowed to pick up uncontested defensive rebounds when Russ is playing,

Yup it’s all about stats with that guy. Even his assists, his teammates need to shoot if he gives them the ball. That’s his goal to get triple doubles. Don’t get me wrong it’s not easy to do and he is a good player but I don’t like the fact that he cares about his personal stats before his team winning. It’s gotten old too,we get it he can get triple doubles lol.

[Am2626]

Anyone who gives a damn about Westbrook's rebounding numbers is a fool. In the Pacers game he had 4 offensive boards and 17 (!!!) defensive ones in 40 minutes. Pure stat padding. I bet noboody else is allowed to pick up uncontested defensive rebounds when Russ is playing,

Isn’t this more of an issue with Washington’s Front Court than Westbrook? I don’t know how you can fault a guy for securing rebounds. The biggest thing is that team is winning games. That really is all that matters.

[Am2626]

Anyone who gives a damn about Westbrook's rebounding numbers is a fool. In the Pacers game he had 4 offensive boards and 17 (!!!) defensive ones in 40 minutes. Pure stat padding. I bet noboody else is allowed to pick up uncontested defensive rebounds when Russ is playing,

Yup it’s all about stats with that guy. Even his assists, his teammates need to shoot if he gives them the ball. That’s his goal to get triple doubles. Don’t get me wrong it’s not easy to do and he is a good player but I don’t like the fact that he cares about his personal stats before his team winning. It’s gotten old too,we get it he can get triple doubles lol.

How do you come to that conclusion? Washington is one of the hottest teams in the league right now. Are you also questioning Beal’s scoring average?

[Am2626]

That combination is bonkers. I wonder how many times that has happened? Can’t be many. Wilt probably did it a few times.

Saw the answer to my own question on ESPN this morning. There have only been three 20/20+ rebound/assist games in NBA history.

Russ has done it twice, Wilt did it once.

Russ is the poster child for "Just because you're unique, doesn't mean you're useful", obviously an exaggeration, Russ is useful, but the uniqueness of his statistical accomplishments is eyepopping relative to the impact of them.

Not that you were making this case, and this was a totally nuts achievement.

Washington is 13-3 over the last 16 games. Only 1 bad loss in that stretch. One loss to Dallas by 1 point and an overtime loss to the Spurs. I would say that Westbrook along with Beal are having a major impact to that team. Sometimes it just takes some time to get that chemistry down. That is why people should be patient with the Bulls team and wait to see what this core does next year before writing things off as a failure.

[dougthonus]

Washington is 13-3 over the last 16 games. Only 1 bad loss in that stretch. One loss to Dallas by 1 point and an overtime loss to the Spurs. I would say that Westbrook along with Beal are having a major impact to that team. Sometimes it just takes some time to get that chemistry down. That is why people should be patient with the Bulls team and wait to see what this core does next year before writing things off as a failure.

Not saying Russ isn't impactful, just that his statistical achievement is the most unique of any player ever and would make the case for him being one of the greatest players of all time. The impact is way below that. I'm not sure he's even a top 50 player of all time.

[Am2626]

Washington is 13-3 over the last 16 games. Only 1 bad loss in that stretch. One loss to Dallas by 1 point and an overtime loss to the Spurs. I would say that Westbrook along with Beal are having a major impact to that team. Sometimes it just takes some time to get that chemistry down. That is why people should be patient with the Bulls team and wait to see what this core does next year before writing things off as a failure.

Not saying Russ isn't impactful, just that his statistical achievement is the most unique of any player ever and would make the case for him being one of the greatest players of all time. The impact is way below that. I'm not sure he's even a top 50 player of all time.

Being able to average a triple double over the course of multiple seasons is a statistical marvel. I feel you have to put him in the top 50 players of all time list. He is a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. If you put Oscar Robertson in that list you have to include Westbrook too.

[Ice Man]

Russ has never won 50 games while being his team's best player. It's pretty hard for a guy to be Top 50 All Time with that fact on his resume. Maybe Russ. Maybe Anthony Davis. No doubt there are a few other candidates. There can't be room for many of those guys on the Top 50 list, though, considering how many great players *have* led their teams to more than 50 wins.

[dougthonus]

Being able to average a triple double over the course of multiple seasons is a statistical marvel. I feel you have to put him in the top 50 players of all time list. He is a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. If you put Oscar Robertson in that list you have to include Westbrook too.

I've never watched Oscar Robertson play, and while I'm somewhat of a basketball history nerd, I'm not so nerdy about it that I have strong feelings about Oscar vs his peers.

When I think of Russ vs his peers, I don't know if I'd ever even have him in the top 10 players in the NBA relative to his peers in terms of impact. Still, you might make him top 50 in the same way you might say Pistol Pete was top 50 for just being a unique player.

If he's on the list he's probably in the 35+ range, and when you think of some of his statistical achievements, it feels like he should be in the top 5 range, but he's really a massive stat whore, and accumulating all of those stats isn't helping his team win games necessarily. If he averaged 5 less rebounds a game and was 5% higher in TS%, his teams would probably be radically better.

[kulaz3000]

Being able to average a triple double over the course of multiple seasons is a statistical marvel. I feel you have to put him in the top 50 players of all time list. He is a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. If you put Oscar Robertson in that list you have to include Westbrook too.

I've never watched Oscar Robertson play, and while I'm somewhat of a basketball history nerd, I'm not so nerdy about it that I have strong feelings about Oscar vs his peers.

When I think of Russ vs his peers, I don't know if I'd ever even have him in the top 10 players in the NBA relative to his peers in terms of impact. Still, you might make him top 50 in the same way you might say Pistol Pete was top 50 for just being a unique player.

If he's on the list he's probably in the 35+ range, and when you think of some of his statistical achievements, it feels like he should be in the top 5 range, but he's really a massive stat whore, and accumulating all of those stats isn't helping his team win games necessarily. If he averaged 5 less rebounds a game and was 5% higher in TS%, his teams would probably be radically better.

I basically agree with everything you said regarding Westbrook, and he is most definitely a stat-chaser, but it's one thing for a player to play to stat-chase, and another to have the skills and the abilities to do so the way Westbrook can. He is unique in that way, that he has the skills, the ability and the tenacity to do what he does, that many many players past and present couldn't do - that's special.

You're not wrong though, if he channelled some of that tenacity towards team play and especially defensively, his teams would of had much more success through his career.

[johnnyvann840]

Holy crap.. Jokic just scored 24 pts in the 1st Q and the Nuggets are just destroying the Knicks in Denver. 34-12 after 1. Knicks can't buy a bucket. Jokic is just unreal.

[dougthonus]

I basically agree with everything you said regarding Westbrook, and he is most definitely a stat-chaser, but it's one thing for a player to play to stat-chase, and another to have the skills and the abilities to do so the way Westbrook can. He is unique in that way, that he has the skills, the ability and the tenacity to do what he does, that many many players past and present couldn't do - that's special.

You're not wrong though, if he channelled some of that tenacity towards team play and especially defensively, his teams would of had much more success through his career.

He's obviously very unique, and I don't think that many players could do what he does. LeBron probably could if he just decided he wanted to and ordered his team to allow him to get all the rebounds instead of doing what is best for the team, but he does what helps his team win more.

An example is does Westbrook's rebounding help you? No. He just steals rebounds from his own players by design. If you had a truly elite guard rebounder that's so dominant at rebounding that he's literally 3-4x as good as a normal PG then your team should be elite at rebounding, but you look at the Wizards this year or Rockets last year and that isn't true. So he's not really conferring an advantag there despite his gaudy statistics.

Is Westbrook's elite passing helping his team move the ball more or generate easier shots? Over the past two years, his teams have had lower than league average assist rates, so no, his teams aren't actually getting more efficient looks or moving the ball better.

Is Westbrook's scoring elite and help his team? No, it's below league average in efficiency.

This isn't to say Westbrook is awful, he's obviously a physical beast that can do a ton of things and completely take over a game, but there's a reason he isn't generating tons and tons of wins despite all of the gaudy stats, when you dig into how the teams operate with a player like Westbrook, it simply isn't as good as spreading things around more.

[Andi Obst]

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Incredible defensive effort by Mo Bamba here. Got beat in slow-motion.

[Ice Man]

Not your father's NBA. Six of the nine winning teams last night scored 130+ points, none of them in overtime. Two losers did, too.

[Ice Man]

Holy crap.. Jokic just scored 24 pts in the 1st Q and the Nuggets are just destroying the Knicks in Denver. 34-12 after 1. Knicks can't buy a bucket. Jokic is just unreal.

The type of performance that upcoming MVPs deliver with late in the season, to double-cement the honor. Obviously, Jokic will win the award in a landslide.