Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2

[thedarkstark]

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When you look at 1:46 and a few seconds after, this is the type of stuff I have always seen with Lauri and why I just don't see him as a good defender. That was some terrible stuff there.

That wasn't even Lauris guy? Thad didn't guard anyone and you are blaming Lauri for it? Thad was obviously playing the 5 in there and isn't comfortable in that position. Blame Donovan for it, not Lauri.

Yeah that's definitely on thad. It's literally why I've been saying thad is a horrible defender at the 5 all this time. What defense are you looking at cold fish?

Defense is done as a team. Is Thad primarily at fault there? Absolutely but you don't just lay down and die you hustle and get your ass in the play, at the very least you give a hard foul so the guy doesn't get an easy layup.

Lauri has zero awareness of where he should be on the floor defensively and gives Boozer-esque effort.

[PaKii94]

That wasn't even Lauris guy? Thad didn't guard anyone and you are blaming Lauri for it? Thad was obviously playing the 5 in there and isn't comfortable in that position. Blame Donovan for it, not Lauri.

Yeah that's definitely on thad. It's literally why I've been saying thad is a horrible defender at the 5 all this time. What defense are you looking at cold fish?

Defense is done as a team. Is Thad primarily at fault there? Absolutely but you don't just lay down and die you hustle and get your ass in the play, at the very least you give a hard foul so the guy doesn't get an easy layup.

Lauri has zero awareness of where he should be on the floor defensively and gives Boozer-esque effort.

The help is supposed to come from the weak side... And that was a blown play anyway because thad didn't switch when he was supposed to

[coldfish]

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When you look at 1:46 and a few seconds after, this is the type of stuff I have always seen with Lauri and why I just don't see him as a good defender. That was some terrible stuff there.

That wasn't even Lauris guy? Thad didn't guard anyone and you are blaming Lauri for it? Thad was obviously playing the 5 in there and isn't comfortable in that position. Blame Donovan for it, not Lauri.

Yeah that's definitely on thad. It's literally why I've been saying thad is a horrible defender at the 5 all this time. What defense are you looking at cold fish?

Again, this is a great example of my problem with Lauri. He is a terrible help defender. He had help responsibility in those cases and didn't even try. As a result, every time someone else gets beat, its an easy layup.

Thad isn't a good defender but that's not the discussion point. In general, the NBA defense isn't about 5 people playing 1 on 1 defense. Its 5 people acting as a team and Lauri doesn't. This is a perfect example of why I think Lauri is a terrible defender.

[PaKii94]

That wasn't even Lauris guy? Thad didn't guard anyone and you are blaming Lauri for it? Thad was obviously playing the 5 in there and isn't comfortable in that position. Blame Donovan for it, not Lauri.

Yeah that's definitely on thad. It's literally why I've been saying thad is a horrible defender at the 5 all this time. What defense are you looking at cold fish?

Again, this is a great example of my problem with Lauri. He is a terrible help defender. He had help responsibility in those cases and didn't even try. As a result, every time someone else gets beat, its an easy layup.

Thad isn't a good defender but that's not the discussion point. In general, the NBA defense isn't about 5 people playing 1 on 1 defense. Its 5 people acting as a team and Lauri doesn't. This is a perfect example of why I think Lauri is a terrible defender.

Well it shows why we have a disconnect in discussing defense...because you don't know what you're talking about. All this time I've asked you for examples. You finally provide some and it's these....

That first play is an example of thad playing bad defense. Very few players can help in that situation to recover it. And that help is supposed to come from the corner I. E. Garrett. Lauri is supposed to split the two guys on the perimeter. But again, that's not a defensive collapse that happens with an average defender at the 5.

In the next play, Sato closes out too hard. Thad makes the right rotation. The next man up is the weak side corner. I.e. Lavine. If you notice Lavine tags him but doesn't stop the play. Just steps away. Lauri isn't the helper there. He's covering the strong side corner.

Like I've always said. Lauri isn't a plus defender where he will warp the game from his defense but he can play solid defense in a team concept. He's playing his role fine. Your expectations of game warping defender is too high.


"Its 5 people acting as a team and Lauri doesn't" Lauri is one of the few who does play team defense...

[Pentele]

That wasn't even Lauris guy? Thad didn't guard anyone and you are blaming Lauri for it? Thad was obviously playing the 5 in there and isn't comfortable in that position. Blame Donovan for it, not Lauri.

Yeah that's definitely on thad. It's literally why I've been saying thad is a horrible defender at the 5 all this time. What defense are you looking at cold fish?

Again, this is a great example of my problem with Lauri. He is a terrible help defender. He had help responsibility in those cases and didn't even try. As a result, every time someone else gets beat, its an easy layup.

Thad isn't a good defender but that's not the discussion point. In general, the NBA defense isn't about 5 people playing 1 on 1 defense. Its 5 people acting as a team and Lauri doesn't. This is a perfect example of why I think Lauri is a terrible defender.

This is indeed a great example. Of overblown expectations regarding everything that Lauri does. The same standard is simply not applied to other players, which is ironic because that is of what some few still seeing positives in Lauri's game are accused. Why, one might ask. Your answer is rather telling: because that is not the discussion point (I guess we now know why there are so many posts in this thread).

I have said it for some time that, as far as Lauri is concerned, people are not happy with having a good player on the roster; they are looking for savior who can bail others out both on offense and defense. And why not, people had great expectations for Lauri. The only problem is that it tends to skew the way one reacts to everything that the "disappointing" player does.

[coldfish]

Yeah that's definitely on thad. It's literally why I've been saying thad is a horrible defender at the 5 all this time. What defense are you looking at cold fish?

Again, this is a great example of my problem with Lauri. He is a terrible help defender. He had help responsibility in those cases and didn't even try. As a result, every time someone else gets beat, its an easy layup.

Thad isn't a good defender but that's not the discussion point. In general, the NBA defense isn't about 5 people playing 1 on 1 defense. Its 5 people acting as a team and Lauri doesn't. This is a perfect example of why I think Lauri is a terrible defender.

Well it shows why we have a disconnect in discussing defense...because you don't know what you're talking about. All this time I've asked you for examples. You finally provide some and it's these....

That first play is an example of thad playing bad defense. Very few players can help in that situation to recover it. And that help is supposed to come from the corner I. E. Garrett. Lauri is supposed to split the two guys on the perimeter. But again, that's not a defensive collapse that happens with an average defender at the 5.

In the next play, Sato closes out too hard. Thad makes the right rotation. The next man up is the weak side corner. I.e. Lavine. If you notice Lavine tags him but doesn't stop the play. Just steps away. Lauri isn't the helper there. He's covering the strong side corner.

Like I've always said. Lauri isn't a plus defender where he will warp the game from his defense but he can play solid defense in a team concept. He's playing his role fine. Your expectations of game warping defender is too high.


"Its 5 people acting as a team and Lauri doesn't" Lauri is one of the few who does play team defense...

You clearly don't understand defensive principles, which is why you think this.

At 1:46, Lauri helps. Well, kind of. He has, help the helper responsibility but he just kind of drifts leaving Thad 1 on 2. But then when the man right in front of him goes up for a layup, Lauri puts his hands down on the guy's hips for some inexplicable reason. He doesn't even try to contest the shot. That's terrible defense for someone who thinks they are a forward.

At 1:54 he is on the strong side. He doesn't have help responsibility there but he kind of drifts away from his man but also doesn't get into position to stop the ball. He somehow completely takes himself out of the defense despite being right in the middle of the play.

2:04 again he drifts over and stands away as a guy makes an easy layup. I'm not sure what he is even thinking at this point.

Lauri is a terrible defender. He isn't the only one on Chicago but "everyone else sucks too" isn't an acceptable excuse.

[Leslie Forman]

If Lauri is such a competent help defender, how does this supposedly athletic 7-foot tall guy have a lower block percentage than Zach freaking LaVine? Everyone complains about Zach and Coby's olé defense on the perimeter, well doesn't that mean Lauri should have even more opportunities to make a play in the paint then?

The guy is just a 7-foot tall Doug McDermott on defense. His instincts and toughness on that end are absolute trash tier. People used to say stuff like "that's not Doug's fault" or "he stayed with his man" to excuse his awful defense too.

[coldfish]

Yeah that's definitely on thad. It's literally why I've been saying thad is a horrible defender at the 5 all this time. What defense are you looking at cold fish?

Again, this is a great example of my problem with Lauri. He is a terrible help defender. He had help responsibility in those cases and didn't even try. As a result, every time someone else gets beat, its an easy layup.

Thad isn't a good defender but that's not the discussion point. In general, the NBA defense isn't about 5 people playing 1 on 1 defense. Its 5 people acting as a team and Lauri doesn't. This is a perfect example of why I think Lauri is a terrible defender.

This is indeed a great example. Of overblown expectations regarding everything that Lauri does. The same standard is simply not applied to other players, which is ironic because that is of what some few still seeing positives in Lauri's game are accused. Why, one might ask. Your answer is rather telling: because that is not the discussion point (I guess we now know why there are so many posts in this thread).

I have said it for some time that, as far as Lauri is concerned, people are not happy with having a good player on the roster; they are looking for savior who can bail others out both on offense and defense. And why not, people had great expectations for Lauri. The only problem is that it tends to skew the way one reacts to everything that the "disappointing" player does.

As I have said before, its about money. When you look around the league, $20m per year is your 3rd best player. You are asking a lot out of your 3rd best guy.

IMO, Lauri would be great to have on the team as a $10-15m per year player, which is about what AK offered him. He can be a bench big who occasionally starts and fills in at SF, PF or C. He's got strengths and weaknesses and the team can use him when the situation suits his skills or when he is just flat out hot.

Some team is going to offer Lauri big money though. It just takes 1. Its going to happen and when it does, Chicago is going to have to let him walk.

Last note for comparison: Vucevic is ALSO a terrible defender. Probably worse than Lauri. No one really debates that though so its not much of a topic of conversation.

[DuckIII]

If Lauri is such a competent help defender, how does this supposedly athletic 7-foot tall guy have a lower block percentage than Zach freaking LaVine? Everyone complains about Zach and Coby's olé defense on the perimeter, well doesn't that mean Lauri should have even more opportunities to make a play in the paint then?

The guy is just a 7-foot tall Doug McDermott on defense. His instincts and toughness on that end are absolute trash tier. People used to say stuff like "that's not Doug's fault" or "he stayed with his man" to excuse his awful defense too.

If for no other reason than his height alone, Lauri is a better defender than McDermott. Lauri has been playing adequate defense these last 2-3 weeks. I’m not all that interested in even debating it. He’s looked better in general.

The issue is, as with all things Lauri, where’s the consistency? And I’m not even talking game to game. It’s month to month and even year to year with him. What’s it worth?

This bring us to Pentele’s theory that a different standard is applied to Lauri due to the strong start to his career. Probably true. But that’s for two reasons. First, it suggests Lauri is leaving quite a bit on the table with no reasonable explanation. Second, and more importantly, his contract is up. Players entering free agency are always under greater scrutiny because we can’t just say “he’s on his cheap rookie deal, plenty of time for him to work on that.” Its 4 years and there are still significant holes, and he’s about to get a lot more expensive. These statements are being made against that backdrop.

[Senor Chang]

Lauri Markkanen is the new Jamal Crawford on this board.

[Leslie Forman]

If for no other reason than his height alone, Lauri is a better defender than McDermott.

But why? Why does that height matter if he doesn't actually play any taller than any random 4/5 that's several inches shorter than him? What is that height actually doing?

I mean, 6'8", $5million Daniel Theis plays a million times taller than him.

[DuckIII]

If for no other reason than his height alone, Lauri is a better defender than McDermott.

But why? Why does that height matter if he doesn't actually play any taller than any random 4/5 that's several inches shorter than him? What is that height actually doing?

I mean, 6'8", $5million Daniel Theis plays a million times taller than him.

No doubt Theis and many other shorter guys play taller. Williams plays taller. I’m just comparing him to McDermott. Lauri’s height bothers some shots and he gets defensive rebounds Doug could not.

He’s a better defender. When he’s playing well, which is not very often, he’s adequate. When he’s not defending with energy and physicality, he’s terrible.

[TheJordanRule]

I miss FebriLauri but, given the past two seasons, Lauri is no longer a sacred cow to me.

Expensive bigs I'd rather throw money at than Lauri:
-John Collins
-Jarrett Allen
-Richaun Holmes

Expensive guards I'd rather throw money at than Lauri:
Kawhi Leonard
Mike Conley

Cheap bigs in free agency who may be more impactful than Lauri:
-Hassan Whiteside
-Serge Ibaka
-Daniel Theis
-Nerlens Noel
-Enes Kanter

May be a better choice than Lauri at the right price:
-Andre Drummond at less than 16 million per season
-Norman Powell at less than 12 million per season
-Lonzo Ball at less than 12 million per season
-Dennis Schroeder at less than 12 million per season
-Devonte Graham at less than 10 million per season
-Talen Horton Tucker at less than 10 million per season
-Montrezl Harrell at less than 10 million per season

Cheap guards in free agency (6-7 mil per year or much less) who may be more impactful than Lauri:
-TJ McConnell
-Evan Fournier
-Goran Dragic

Intriguing cheap, low risk, high upside free agents who may soon outperform Lauri:
-Kevin Looney
-Moe Wagner
-Justice Winslow
-Gary Trent
-Dennis Smith Jr.

[TheFinishSniper]

Lauri Markkanen is the new Jamal Crawford on this board.

Best thing for Lauri would be to move on. And for rest of fanbase. Hope AK can do decent sign and trade in summer and that's it.

[sco]

I miss FebriLauri but, given the past two seasons, Lauri is no longer a sacred cow to me.

Expensive bigs I'd rather throw money at than Lauri:
-John Collins
-Jarrett Allen
-Richaun Holmes

Expensive guards I'd rather throw money at than Lauri:
Kawhi Leonard
Mike Conley

Cheap bigs in free agency who may be more impactful than Lauri:
-Hassan Whiteside
-Serge Ibaka
-Daniel Theis
-Nerlens Noel
-Enes Kanter

May be a better choice than Lauri at the right price:
-Andre Drummond at less than 16 million per season
-Norman Powell at less than 12 million per season
-Lonzo Ball at less than 12 million per season
-Dennis Schroeder at less than 12 million per season
-Devonte Graham at less than 10 million per season
-Talen Horton Tucker at less than 10 million per season
-Montrezl Harrell at less than 10 million per season

Cheap guards in free agency (6-7 mil per year or much less) who may be more impactful than Lauri:
-TJ McConnell
-Evan Fournier
-Goran Dragic

Intriguing cheap, low risk, high upside free agents who may soon outperform Lauri:
-Kevin Looney
-Moe Wagner
-Justice Winslow
-Gary Trent
-Dennis Smith Jr.

Fournier is a $15M+ guy, he'd absolutely be my first choice at any price. I'd be trilled with Dragic, but think someone else gets him. McConnell is an interesting guy to consider. His defense is crazy good...esp against those small quick guys.

[ZOMG]

If for no other reason than his height alone, Lauri is a better defender than McDermott.

But why? Why does that height matter if he doesn't actually play any taller than any random 4/5 that's several inches shorter than him? What is that height actually doing?

I mean, 6'8", $5million Daniel Theis plays a million times taller than him.

Except for his much quicker second jump, Theis is not more athletic than Markkanen, nor does he play "better" defense (as in, he's more skilled at it or tries harder) but he has Go-Go gadget arms compared to Lauri. The difference is ridiculous. It's completely true that Theis "plays bigger".

For a 7ft NBA player, Markkanen has short arms (same wingspan as height) AND low, narrow shoulders, which is the real killer here. He simply has terrible reach. He always challenges shots but people keep shooting over him like he's not there. Nothing you can do about that.

Sometimes a few missing inches in your wingspan make a huge difference. If Markkanen had those inches, the "almost-poster-dunks" he keeps trying would be actual poster dunks. He'd be getting more blocks, more rebounds, more deflections, more steals.

This is one more reason why it was the height of insanity to make Lauri bulk up. He's a guy who needs every single inch of his vertical.

[GoBlue72391]

If for no other reason than his height alone, Lauri is a better defender than McDermott.

But why? Why does that height matter if he doesn't actually play any taller than any random 4/5 that's several inches shorter than him? What is that height actually doing?

I mean, 6'8", $5million Daniel Theis plays a million times taller than him.

Except for his much quicker second jump, Theis is not more athletic than Markkanen, nor does he play "better" defense (as in, he's [i]more skilled at it or tries harder)[/i] but he has Go-Go gadget arms compared to Lauri. The difference is ridiculous. It's completely true that Theis "plays bigger".

That's an...interesting take...

Sometimes a few missing inches in your wingspan make a huge difference. If Markkanen had those inches, the "almost-poster-dunks" he keeps trying would be actual poster dunks. He'd be getting more blocks, more rebounds, more deflections, more steals.

The reason for all those "almost-poster-dunks" is because the ball slips out of his hand at the last second. Maybe he has small hands for his size or a poor grip, but if he was able to retain possession of the ball the whole way through he would make most of them. Even the ones he has made (the poster on Vuch a few years ago, the poster on Moses Brown a few months ago) the ball slipped out of his hand at the last second and was more of a very hard layup than a true dunk. I don't think it's a lack of athleticism or even a lack of length (although he is lacking length for his size), I think it's simply an inability to keep control of the ball. FWIW, that seems much easier to correct than lacking athleticism/length.

This is one more reason why it was the height of insanity to make Lauri bulk up. He's a guy who needs every single inch of his vertical.

I agree with that. Lauri is at his best around 225 pounds or so.

[ZOMG]

But why? Why does that height matter if he doesn't actually play any taller than any random 4/5 that's several inches shorter than him? What is that height actually doing?

I mean, 6'8", $5million Daniel Theis plays a million times taller than him.

Except for his much quicker second jump, Theis is not more athletic than Markkanen, nor does he play "better" defense (as in, he's [i]more skilled at it or tries harder)[/i] but he has Go-Go gadget arms compared to Lauri. The difference is ridiculous. It's completely true that Theis "plays bigger".

That's an...interesting take...

To paraphrase Bill Simmons - defensively, Theis is so underrated that he's become a bit overrated. People have a tendency to equate the shaved head, the tats, the hustle and the physical play with incredible D, but the truth is that even at 6'8'', he can't defend wings at all and is simply too small (despite his length) to guard true centers. He's definitely not bad, but he's also not some second coming of Rodman. There's a reason he's only making $5 mil per year.

It has to be said, though, that Theis suffers from having to play with defensive non-entities like Vuc, Zach, and Coby in the starting lineup.

Sometimes a few missing inches in your wingspan make a huge difference. If Markkanen had those inches, the "almost-poster-dunks" he keeps trying would be actual poster dunks. He'd be getting more blocks, more rebounds, more deflections, more steals.

The reason for all those "almost-poster-dunks" is because the ball slips out of his hand at the last second. Maybe he has small hands for his size or a poor grip, but if he was able to retain possession of the ball the whole way through he would make most of them. Even the ones he has made (the poster on Vuch a few years ago, the poster on Moses Brown a few months ago) the ball slipped out of his hand at the last second and was more of a very hard layup than a true dunk. I don't think it's a lack of athleticism or even a lack of length (although he is lacking length for his size), I think it's simply an inability to keep control of the ball. FWIW, that seems much easier to correct than lacking athleticism/length.

Sure, Lauri might have small hands as well. But on those poster dunk attempts, he simply doesn't get high enough or close enough to the basket, and ends up trying to make up for it by whipping the ball towards the rim way too hard, losing control in the process. He always hits the back of the iron.

[Leslie Forman]

No doubt Theis and many other shorter guys play taller. Williams plays taller. I’m just comparing him to McDermott. Lauri’s height bothers some shots and he gets defensive rebounds Doug could not.

Doug isn't a big man. This is like saying Vuc is a better defender than Zach (which he obviously is not) because he gets more rebounds and bothers more shots.

Relative to their positions and similar types of players around the league, they are at about the same level.

Olynyk/Markkanen/Kaminsky - this is simply not a player archetype that adds much, if any, value to an NBA team.

[Taikuri]

So what do you guys think that Lauri's next season's salary or cap hit will look like? How much would another team have to offer where Bulls wouldn't match the offer?