Triple Double King Russell Westbrook Appreciation Thread.

tontoz · Post #201 » by **tontoz** » Thu May 6, 2021 4:41 pm

Kidd's weak scoring eliminates him from the discussion for top pgs all time for me. He didnt have a jumper although he did develop a set shot from 3. He wasn't good at getting to the basket and finishing.

Career TS of 50.7% is actually 2% worse than Westbrook.

Post #202 » by **nate33** » Thu May 6, 2021 4:58 pm

tontoz wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Magic, Big O, Stef, Zeke. Aside from these few has any top tier PG ever carried a team to a championship?

Zeke in a way is the most impressive, considering he beat MJ, Magic, Bird to do it. Stef has LeBJ as a nemesis, but what other generational player has been in the league in his era?

Sorry but i can't buy this. At all. Zeke didn't even remotely carry that team. He wasn't a good shooter from anywhere outside 3 feet.

That team was defined by their defense and that wasnt because of Zeke. They had DPOY Rodman to guard Bird and 1st team All NBA defense Dumars to guard Jordan. Not to mention Mahorn, Laimbeer, and Salley to guard the paint.

Mark Aguirre had back to back 25 ppg seasons in Dallas. Detroit had him coming off the bench.

I would argue that Zeke wasn't even the best guard on his own team during their title years. He couldn't even make 3rd team All-NBA.

There is a lot of revisionist history about Isiah. Early in his career, he averaged insane numbers on a losing team. Later in his career, he posted rather ordinary numbers for a winning team. People have fused those memories so that they think Isiah was posting insane numbers while leading his team to victory. It didn't really happen that way.

Isiah was certainly good when he was on those title teams, but he was not best-of-all-time good. Dumars was probably the better player when factoring his efficiency and defense. Isiah was pretty clutch though. Can't deny that.

If we are going to argue that winning a title is what separates the wheat from the chaff, then we must argue that Chauncey Billups is also in the conversation for best PG of all time.

Post #203 » by **Ruzious** » Thu May 6, 2021 5:27 pm

I'd put Billups at the top of the 3rd tier - along with Gary Payton and the surprisingly overlooked Clyde Frazier. All 3 could arguably be put at the bottom of the 2nd tier. I think sometimes people discount older players like Clyde because they didn't have the 3 point shot back then, and the 3 pointer added a lot to players' stats - at least the one's who were good at making them - not to mention the rules prohibiting hand-checking and defensive 3 seconds. Clyde was also arguably the model for today's hybrid guard. Before the Knicks got Monroe from the Bullets, he was strictly a PG, but after that trade - he seamlessly adjusted to sharing the PG duties with Earl.

payitforward · Post #204 » by **payitforward** » Thu May 6, 2021 5:45 pm

Wandering minds, glizzy, never to worry.

Something else emerges from looking at Mathews' 18 games since the start of April:

In the first 5 games in April, he went 6-13 on three point attempts. He averaged 20 minutes a game.
In the last 5 games (4 in April & 1 last night), he has gone 4-12 on three point shots. He's averaged 13 minutes/game in 4 of them & only played 1 minute the 5th of them.

IOW, in those 10 games, Mathews shot the 3-ball at 40% on 23 attempts. 157 minutes total.

But, in between, in the 9 games from 4/10 (vs Phoenix) to 4/23 (vs OKC), Mathews went 2-16 shooting the 3-ball. 12.5%.

In other words, Garrison Mathews had about a 2-week slump shooting the 3-ball.

DCZards · Post #205 » by **DCZards** » Thu May 6, 2021 5:51 pm

Walt "Clyde" Frazier deserves to be in the top 10 PG discussion.

Everybody remembers the 7th game of the 1970 NBA Finals as the "Willis Reed Game" after Reed limped on the court to inspire the Knicks and their fans in the first few minutes of that game. What most don't remember is that Frazier had 36 points, 19 assists, seven rebounds and four steals in that game.

Clyde could dominate a game with his defensive skills.

dobrojim · Post #206 » by **dobrojim** » Thu May 6, 2021 7:35 pm

doclinkin wrote:
dobrojim wrote:At the risk of thread hijack, anyone want to weigh in on GoaT PGs.
Lots of defendable choices. I like Stockton due to his efficiency
A:TO, shooting percentages at all three levels, defense and screens.
Hard to argue with Magic. IMO, despite size, Steph is a SG. I remember (sorta)
Maravich was amazing Sg/pg but had a brief career. CP3 is in conversation.
Steph has changed the game and was also best player on a championship team.

Watch on YouTube

Is Jerry West considered a PG?

Post #207 » by **Ruzious** » Thu May 6, 2021 7:52 pm

dobrojim wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
dobrojim wrote:At the risk of thread hijack, anyone want to weigh in on GoaT PGs.
Lots of defendable choices. I like Stockton due to his efficiency
A:TO, shooting percentages at all three levels, defense and screens.
Hard to argue with Magic. IMO, despite size, Steph is a SG. I remember (sorta)
Maravich was amazing Sg/pg but had a brief career. CP3 is in conversation.
Steph has changed the game and was also best player on a championship team.

Watch on YouTube

Is Jerry West considered a PG?

West was labelled a shooting guard, but Lakers offense was usually run through him - though for a couple years, they ran it through Wilt. When I was a kid, West played with Gail Goodrich in the Lakers' backcourt, and I think Goodrich was labelled as the PG - probably because he was only 6'1.

Kanyewest · Post #208 » by **Kanyewest** » Thu May 6, 2021 8:26 pm

tontoz wrote:Kidd's weak scoring eliminates him from the discussion for top pgs all time for me. He didnt have a jumper although he did develop a set shot from 3. He wasn't good at getting to the basket and finishing.

Career TS of 50.7% is actually 2% worse than Westbrook.

Kidd doesn't cracks my top 5 either, although I still may put him over Westbrook because of the defense he played.

Also if I had to guess the average TS% when Kidd played was lower- although it may be closer than what I initially thought https://aminoapps.com/c/nba/page/item/year-by-year-league-average-ts/wKgr_EQQspIBPl0l71boaZNMVpbqLvabKb0

payitforward · Post #209 » by **payitforward** » Thu May 6, 2021 8:27 pm

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/where_russell_westbrook_stacks_up_among_the_greatest_point_guards_of_all_time/s1_12680_34821998

They have the 2 best as Magic & CP3, which I think is probably correct -- although I notice that no one has mentioned Bob Cousy in this thread. Yet, really, all that indicates is the extreme difficulty in such comparisons across decades in which the game has changed enormously & so have the players.

As to Russ -- what can you say except WOW.

tontoz · Post #210 » by **tontoz** » Thu May 6, 2021 8:35 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
tontoz wrote:Kidd's weak scoring eliminates him from the discussion for top pgs all time for me. He didnt have a jumper although he did develop a set shot from 3. He wasn't good at getting to the basket and finishing.

Career TS of 50.7% is actually 2% worse than Westbrook.

Kidd doesn't cracks my top 5 either, although I still may put him over Westbrook because of the defense he played.

Also if I had to guess the average TS% when Kidd played was lower- although it may be closer than what I initially thought https://aminoapps.com/c/nba/page/item/year-by-year-league-average-ts/wKgr_EQQspIBPl0l71boaZNMVpbqLvabKb0

Average TS was lower in the past but remember Kidd retired in 2013. That wasn't long ago.

Mark Price had 3 straight 60%+ TS seasons before Kidd was drafted and he never dunked lol. Magic's career TS was 61%. Ditto Stockton.

Kanyewest · Post #211 » by **Kanyewest** » Fri May 7, 2021 1:15 am

tontoz wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
tontoz wrote:Kidd's weak scoring eliminates him from the discussion for top pgs all time for me. He didnt have a jumper although he did develop a set shot from 3. He wasn't good at getting to the basket and finishing.

Career TS of 50.7% is actually 2% worse than Westbrook.

Kidd doesn't cracks my top 5 either, although I still may put him over Westbrook because of the defense he played.

Also if I had to guess the average TS% when Kidd played was lower- although it may be closer than what I initially thought https://aminoapps.com/c/nba/page/item/year-by-year-league-average-ts/wKgr_EQQspIBPl0l71boaZNMVpbqLvabKb0

Average TS was lower in the past but remember Kidd retired in 2013. That wasn't long ago.

Mark Price had 3 straight 60%+ TS seasons before Kidd was drafted and he never dunked lol. Magic's career TS was 61%. Ditto Stockton.

Yup, Magic and Stockton are ahead of Kidd.

Of course Kidd made 9 defensive teams in his career. Up to this point no point guard has made more - 4 more than Stockon- 9 more than Price, Westbrook, and Magic combined.

pancakes3 · Post #212 » by **pancakes3** » Sat May 8, 2021 8:38 pm

The RealGM Player Comparison Board is ranking individual players and the PGs shake out to be:

Magic (7th)
West (13th)
O (14th)
CP3 (23rd)
Steph (24th)
Stockton (26th)
Nash (27th)
Frazier (30th)
Harden (31st)
Kidd (36th)
Zeke (43rd)
Westbrook (44th)
Billups (46th)
GP (48th)
Cousy (63rd)
Iverson (66th)
Tony Parker (71st)
Dame (85th)
Terry Porter (93rd)

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2079164

but this is about the greatest players and i suppose that while it's a similar conversation, not the same conversation as greatest point guards (how these guys played the PG role specifically)

Post #213 » by **Ruzious** » Sat May 8, 2021 8:55 pm

I always thought West was considered a 2 more than a 1, but ok. Pretty good list. I'd put Arenas ahead of Terry Porter.

Post #214 » by **nate33** » Sat May 8, 2021 9:24 pm

I think Parker is way too high. He was never as good as Dame Lillard, or Arenas for that matter.

pancakes3 · Post #215 » by **pancakes3** » Sat May 8, 2021 9:58 pm

I agree. Arenas is overlooked by a lot of ppl but when he was at the height of his powers, he was somewhere between Lillard and Harden of the league right now.

And speaking of Harden, I think he's better than Step as a player. Curry can obviously cook and is probably the best shooter this game will ever know but Harden can do so much more.

dobrojim · Post #216 » by **dobrojim** » Sat May 8, 2021 11:13 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
tontoz wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
Kidd doesn't cracks my top 5 either, although I still may put him over Westbrook because of the defense he played.

Also if I had to guess the average TS% when Kidd played was lower- although it may be closer than what I initially thought https://aminoapps.com/c/nba/page/item/year-by-year-league-average-ts/wKgr_EQQspIBPl0l71boaZNMVpbqLvabKb0

Average TS was lower in the past but remember Kidd retired in 2013. That wasn't long ago.

Mark Price had 3 straight 60%+ TS seasons before Kidd was drafted and he never dunked lol. Magic's career TS was 61%. Ditto Stockton.

Yup, Magic and Stockton are ahead of Kidd.

Of course Kidd made 9 defensive teams in his career. Up to this point no point guard has made more - 4 more than Stockon- 9 more than Price, Westbrook, and Magic combined.

Stockton was a perennial all-D guy who retired as AT assist and steals career leader.
The fact that he had to compete vs Magic’s laker dynasty shouldn’t diminish his
consideration. Great shooter, great defender, great floor general. Magic has made
some very complimentary remarks about Stockton. I’m surprised that you say he
only made four all-D teams. He’s in my first tier. Cousy would be the GoAT if history
stopped in 1962.

dobrojim · Post #217 » by **dobrojim** » Sat May 8, 2021 11:32 pm

pancakes3 wrote:The RealGM Player Comparison Board is ranking individual players and the PGs shake out to be:

Magic (7th)
West (13th)
O (14th)
CP3 (23rd)
Steph (24th)
Stockton (26th)
Nash (27th)
Frazier (30th)
Harden (31st)
Kidd (36th)
Zeke (43rd)
Westbrook (44th)
Billups (46th)
GP (48th)
Cousy (63rd)
Iverson (66th)
Tony Parker (71st)
Dame (85th)
Terry Porter (93rd)

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2079164

but this is about the greatest players and i suppose that while it's a similar conversation, not the same conversation as greatest point guards (how these guys played the PG role specifically)

It would be interesting as well to add their respective draft positions to the above list.
Many very high, some not quite so much.

Kanyewest · Post #218 » by **Kanyewest** » Sun May 9, 2021 2:13 am

dobrojim wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
tontoz wrote:
Average TS was lower in the past but remember Kidd retired in 2013. That wasn't long ago.

Mark Price had 3 straight 60%+ TS seasons before Kidd was drafted and he never dunked lol. Magic's career TS was 61%. Ditto Stockton.

Yup, Magic and Stockton are ahead of Kidd.

Of course Kidd made 9 defensive teams in his career. Up to this point no point guard has made more - 4 more than Stockon- 9 more than Price, Westbrook, and Magic combined.

Stockton was a perennial all-D guy who retired as AT assist and steals career leader.
The fact that he had to compete vs Magic’s laker dynasty shouldn’t diminish his
consideration. Great shooter, great defender, great floor general. Magic has made
some very complimentary remarks about Stockton. I’m surprised that you say he
only made four all-D teams. He’s in my first tier. Cousy would be the GoAT if history
stopped in 1962.

Stockton made 5- which is impressive.

Kidd made 9 - which is more impressive.

Again, I have Stockton ahead of Kidd (probably at least 6-8 guys separate them in my hypothetical list) but just saying that Kidd is still one of the better point guards despite his low TS%.

dobrojim · Post #219 » by **dobrojim** » Sun May 9, 2021 2:33 am

Dupe post

payitforward · Post #220 » by **payitforward** » Sun May 9, 2021 2:44 am

Didn't know where to put this factoid, but this might be the place since Russ is driving this team's performance.

On the season overall, all our 68 games so far, the Wizards are down a total of 150 points to our opponents.

OTOH, in our last 16 games, the Wizards are up a total of 133 points over our opponents.

That is quite a turnaround.