NBA MVP Discussion '20-'21, Part 2 (Poll created 21 March '21)

[eminence]

Utah up to 5-2 without Mitchell/Conley in the lineup (5-1 when Gobert plays), Gobert needs to be top 2 and I'm not sure it's #2.

[kuclas]

Embiid will be 2nd assuming he plays 50 games. He’s had a terrific season but games missed is a huge negative.

I think it would be a huge fight on these message boards between all the European fans rooting for Jokic on this message board and Embiid fans. The Europeans on here seem to be much more vocal. The vote would be a lot closer had Embiid played more games. But he didn’t. So it’s Jokic the mvp.

But Embiid team is going to finish 1 in the east. And frankly had he been healthy Sixers would likely have the best record in the nba. I lost count. But Sixers are something like 25-4 with their starting lineup. 32-6 with Embiid and Simmons. 38-10 with Embiid and no Simmons. (Or something like that)

[FinnTheHuman]

1. Jokic
2. CP3
3. Embiid
4. Doncic
5. Giannis

I have a feeling that their is going to be a big push to give CP3 the MVP. Don't get me wrong, Paul is awesome, is one of my favorite players, and seeing a 36 year old Chris Paul win MVP after being written off as a top player for years would be incredible. But Jokic is the clear MVP and him not winning would be highway robbery.

I agree with this top 5, with Jokic as a clear #1. I would drop Embiid though. I know the Sixers have been great, and he’s been awesome, but he’s just missed way too much time.

I can see Jokic being in the lead right now, but surely Giannis has to be closer to 1st than 5th, right? 28/11/6/1/1, with the obvious two way impact. MIL is 43-24 (2nd in the East), DEN 44-23 (4th in the West).

Voter fatigue aside, I think Giannis has a more legitimate case than he’s been being given credit for this season.

Giannis missed like 10 games, and his team did just fine without him, and Giannis tops Jokic only in ppg and blocks per game, so even if you observe it in that simplistic box score way, it’s super hard to make a case for him for number 1.

Now, I know you weren’t arguing for him over Jokic, but I’d say anybody who’s number two is closer to 5th than to 1st this year. I can see a lot of 2nd and 3rd place votes for him, but idk if anybody votes him 1st. Pretty much every guy fighting for that number 2 spot has some holes in his case.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

I agree with this top 5, with Jokic as a clear #1. I would drop Embiid though. I know the Sixers have been great, and he’s been awesome, but he’s just missed way too much time.

I can see Jokic being in the lead right now, but surely Giannis has to be closer to 1st than 5th, right? 28/11/6/1/1, with the obvious two way impact. MIL is 43-24 (2nd in the East), DEN 44-23 (4th in the West).

Voter fatigue aside, I think Giannis has a more legitimate case than he’s been being given credit for this season.

Giannis missed like 10 games, and his team did just fine without him, and Giannis tops Jokic only in ppg and blocks per game, so even if you observe it in that simplistic box score way, it’s super hard to make a case for him for number 1.

Now, I know you weren’t arguing for him over Jokic, but I’d say anybody who’s number two is closer to 5th than to 1st this year. I can see a lot of 2nd and 3rd place votes for him, but idk if anybody votes him 1st. Pretty much every guy fighting for that number 2 spot has some holes in his case.

10 games isn’t an insignificant amount of games to have missed, but it’s not so many that he can’t win the award either. Harden and Giannis won MVP in back to back years with both guys missing 10 games. Also, the Bucks were 6-4 without him, with the 6 wins coming against non playoff teams and the 4 losses coming against playoff teams — so I don’t think their performance without him hurts his case any.

But anyway, no gripes from me if/when Jokic wins it. Just seems like Giannis’ season is flying a little under the radar.

[The Rebel]

Utah up to 5-2 without Mitchell/Conley in the lineup (5-1 when Gobert plays), Gobert needs to be top 2 and I'm not sure it's #2.

You realize that the Nuggets are without their top 5 guards they started the season with don't you?

[eminence]

Utah up to 5-2 without Mitchell/Conley in the lineup (5-1 when Gobert plays), Gobert needs to be top 2 and I'm not sure it's #2.

You realize that the Nuggets are without their top 5 guards they started the season with don't you?

I am aware yes.

[KGtabake]

1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Embiid
4. CP
5. Gobert

[KqWIN]

I don't think it's crazy to have all 5 players on the ballot as international players. Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Gobert, and Luka. I'd probably have CP3 in there instead of Luka, but it's not egregious to have those 5 imo.

[Sharkboy242]

Gobert just beat Jokic. Gobert MVP.

[kuclas]

1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Embiid
4. CP
5. Gobert

If Embiid plays 70% (51 games) he will finish a distance 2nd to Jokic.

Jokic



Embiid
Giannis
Cp3
Curry
Gobert

Gobert finishing 6th will probably be the highest defensive minded player to finish in the top 6 ever.

Guys like dikembe mutombo didn’t average more than 10-11 points. But that’s another era. So Rudy average 14 points is equivalent to a 10/11 point average for dikembe. Slower pace of play in his era.

[FinnTheHuman]

1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Embiid
4. CP
5. Gobert

If Embiid plays 70% (51 games) he will finish a distance 2nd to Jokic.

Jokic



Embiid
Giannis
Cp3
Curry
Gobert

Gobert finishing 6th will probably be the highest defensive minded player to finish in the top 6 ever.

Guys like dikembe mutombo didn’t average more than 10-11 points. But that’s another era. So Rudy average 14 points is equivalent to a 10/11 point average for dikembe. Slower pace of play in his era.

[eminence]

Gobert finishing 6th will probably be the highest defensive minded player to finish in the top 6 ever.

Guys like dikembe mutombo didn’t average more than 10-11 points. But that’s another era. So Rudy average 14 points is equivalent to a 10/11 point average for dikembe. Slower pace of play in his era.

Joakim Noah finished 4th back in '14.

[Kobe187]

Curry just wow, best offensive assassin and gifted scorer since Kobe, probably won’t get the MVP but man am I impressed.

[VDT]

Games played is something to consider, but people here (and possibly those that actually vote for the MVP) are going over the top.

Why would it matter how many games someone has played when he has won more games than someone that has played more games? Of course there are other things to consider like team strength etc, but putting so much importance on games played seems a bit misguided to me.

[Taikuri]

Curry just wow, best offensive assassin and gifted pure scorer since Kobe, probably won’t get the MVP but man am I impressed.

Only Michael Jordan has been better offensively than Curry IMO. I'm not even a GSW fan but a Curry fan for sure. How can you not be. He's magical.

As far as this season's MVP goes, Curry or Jokic.

[kazyv]

Games played is something to consider, but people here (and possibly those that actually vote for the MVP) are going over the top.

Why would it matter how many games someone has played when he has won more games than someone that has played more games? Of course there are other things to consider like team strength etc, but putting so much importance on games played seems a bit misguided to me.

who do you have in mind for mvp then?

[Inspektor1312]

Games played is something to consider, but people here (and possibly those that actually vote for the MVP) are going over the top.

Why would it matter how many games someone has played when he has won more games than someone that has played more games? Of course there are other things to consider like team strength etc, but putting so much importance on games played seems a bit misguided to me.

It's not just about "games played", it's about the accumulated value that a player brings over the course of a season.

[BelgradeNugget]

Games played is something to consider, but people here (and possibly those that actually vote for the MVP) are going over the top.

Why would it matter how many games someone has played when he has won more games than someone that has played more games? Of course there are other things to consider like team strength etc, but putting so much importance on games played seems a bit misguided to me.

who do you have in mind for mvp then?

Well here is short list of significant players that won most games this year

1. Rudy Gobert - 50
2. Chris Paul - 48
3. Devin Booker - 46
4. Nikola Jokic - 44

Probably somebody from that list

[Doctor MJ]

Games played is something to consider, but people here (and possibly those that actually vote for the MVP) are going over the top.

Why would it matter how many games someone has played when he has won more games than someone that has played more games? Of course there are other things to consider like team strength etc, but putting so much importance on games played seems a bit misguided to me.

who do you have in mind for mvp then?

Well here is short list of significant players that won most games this year

1. Rudy Gobert - 50
2. Chris Paul - 48
3. Devin Booker - 46
4. Nikola Jokic - 44

Probably somebody from that list

He may have meant those players, but it’s something I’ve heard from Embiid supporters who don’t realize that he’s actually won considerably less than that.

One thing I’ll say is that Walton won the MVP despite other players winning more games, and while arguments Walton certainly exist, I think Walton deserved the MVP while Embiid does not. Why? Because Walton was indeed way more valuable than anyone else in the league when he played in a way Embiid just isn’t. Per minute Embiid would be in the MVP debate but it really is debatable, and it really wasn’t for Walton.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Outside]

Games played is something to consider, but people here (and possibly those that actually vote for the MVP) are going over the top.

Why would it matter how many games someone has played when he has won more games than someone that has played more games? Of course there are other things to consider like team strength etc, but putting so much importance on games played seems a bit misguided to me.

Let's take the example of Jokic and Embiid and why considering games played is more than reasonable when the difference is significant.

Looking at it with per-game stats makes them look really close. When one player has an advantage in that category over the other, I put the advantage in blue.

Jokic
35.0 min 3.6
26.4 pts
10.8 reb
8.5 ast 5.4
0.7 blk
1.4 stl 0.4
2.6 tov 0.5

Embiid
31.4 min
29.2 pts 2.8
11.3 reb 0.5
3.1 ast
1.4 blk 0.7
1.0 stl
3.1 tov

The numbers are close enough, with Embiid ahead in points, rebounds, and blocks, that you can argue that Embiid deserves the MVP because he is a better defensive player.

Now look at season totals in those categories.

Jokic
2380 min 843
1796 pts 364
737 reb 211
576 ast 434
47 blk
93 stl 46
216 tov

Embiid
1537 min
1432 pts
526 reb
142 ast
68 blk 21
47 stl
151 tov 65

Looked at this way, Jokic dominates Embiid in basic stats, and by a sizeable margin for minutes and the most basic stats of points, rebounds, and assists.

If the margins were close, then you could make a case for Embiid. The margins aren't close.

Then look at metrics. I put the line in bold italics if the player leads the league in that category.

Jokic
64.7 TS% 0.7
31.0 PER
14.7 WS 5.8
.297 WS/48 0.018
11.6 BPM 3.8
8.1 VORP 4.3
6.33 LEBRON 0.85
12.30 LEBRON wins added 5.20

Embiid
64.0 TS%
31.1 PER 0.1
8.9 WS
.279 WS/48
7.8 BPM
3.8 VORP
5.48 LEBRON
7.10 LEBRON wins added

The case for Embiid (or LeBron, or anyone who has missed significant time) over Jokic doesn't hold up. Jokic is the MVP.