[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Grizzlies

[Djoker]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim should be considered IMO. Not saying he will make my list but maybe...

[Colbinii]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim should be considered IMO. Not saying he will make my list but maybe...

He played on garbage teams and his teams were mostly better without him than with him. Mediocre scorer, poor to terrible playmaker for a player with a high usage (26.7 USG% over his 5 year stint with Vancouver) and bad defender (showed flashes but wildly inconsistent).

[Djoker]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim should be considered IMO. Not saying he will make my list but maybe...

He played on garbage teams and his teams were mostly better without him than with him. Mediocre scorer, poor to terrible playmaker for a player with a high usage (26.7 USG% over his 5 year stint with Vancouver) and bad defender (showed flashes but wildly inconsistent).

I agree but IMO he still has a good case over guys like Battier and Tony Allen who were role players. Abdur-Rahim was a 20/10 big man at his peak who actually shot a bit over league average despite garbage teammates.

[Colbinii]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim should be considered IMO. Not saying he will make my list but maybe...

He played on garbage teams and his teams were mostly better without him than with him. Mediocre scorer, poor to terrible playmaker for a player with a high usage (26.7 USG% over his 5 year stint with Vancouver) and bad defender (showed flashes but wildly inconsistent).

I agree but IMO he still has a good case over guys like Battier and Tony Allen who were role players. Abdur-Rahim was a 20/10 big man at his peak who actually shot a bit over league average despite garbage teammates.

He is not close to as good of a basketball player as Shane Battier.

Whats next, Anthony Edwards as a rookie is better than Shane Battier since ANT can score 40?

[Dr Positivity]

He played on garbage teams and his teams were mostly better without him than with him. Mediocre scorer, poor to terrible playmaker for a player with a high usage (26.7 USG% over his 5 year stint with Vancouver) and bad defender (showed flashes but wildly inconsistent).

I agree but IMO he still has a good case over guys like Battier and Tony Allen who were role players. Abdur-Rahim was a 20/10 big man at his peak who actually shot a bit over league average despite garbage teammates.

He is not close to as good of a basketball player as Shane Battier.

Whats next, Anthony Edwards as a rookie is better than Shane Battier since ANT can score 40?

Tbf Shareef has some decent seasons boxscore wise. 20/10/3 with .132 WS/48, 2.2 BPM is worth considering at 5 with this field.

Edwards is just a bad player right now.

[Colbinii]

I agree but IMO he still has a good case over guys like Battier and Tony Allen who were role players. Abdur-Rahim was a 20/10 big man at his peak who actually shot a bit over league average despite garbage teammates.

He is not close to as good of a basketball player as Shane Battier.

Whats next, Anthony Edwards as a rookie is better than Shane Battier since ANT can score 40?

Tbf Shareef has some decent seasons boxscore wise. 20/10/3 with .132 WS/48, 2.2 BPM is worth considering at 5 with this field.

Edwards is just a bad player right now.

The argument would be vs Z-Bo, not Battier though.

[Odinn21]

Well, I started by comparing Pau and Gasol. Then moved on from there as those 2 are anchoring points.

1. 2006 Pau Gasol
With the Grizzlies, there's not many glaring individual postseason runs and in terms of regular season. In regular season, 2006 team (49 wins & 5th in NRtg with +4.3) is only 2nd to 2013 team (56 wins & 7th in NRtg with +4.6) in the franchise history. Considering roster structure and quality, 2006 Pau is more impressive than 2013 Marc to me. I'm aware of Battier's massive impact. Between Pau and Battier, that's more about the fundamental difference between floor raising and ceiling raising.
Also worth noting that, even though the Grizzlies made it WCF in 2013, if we compare Pau's and Marc's performances against the Spurs in 2006 and 2013, when the Grizzlies were utterly outclassed, Pau definitely performed better.

2. 2017 Mike Conley
I might sound too hung up in games played and total playtime, but in here, feeling like having Conley over Pau is having an MVP that missed 10+ games in the season. Quality and impact wise, they are definitely on the same level for me. Maybe a slight edge to Conley with his per poss value on offense, but not enough.

3. 2011 Zach Randolph
With this offense vs. defense comparison, I think the neutral aspect of the game, rebounding is overlooked. Randolph definitely rebounded better than Gasols. The difference is quite meaningful. Randolph's rebounding rate is higher by more than 7%. His direct rebounding in postseason was lower than his regular season performance but he battled and boxed out Duncan insanely hard. He was like Steven Adams. I don't think Marc's edge on defense is big enough to make up for offensive and rebounding gaps.

4. 2013 Marc Gasol
Well, not much to say about him at this point. Looking at the votes, I'd expect many to disagree with Marc being the last of these 4 in fact.

5. 2006 Shane Battier
The most obvious pick in here.

[homecourtloss]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim should be considered IMO. Not saying he will make my list but maybe...

He played on garbage teams and his teams were mostly better without him than with him. Mediocre scorer, poor to terrible playmaker for a player with a high usage (26.7 USG% over his 5 year stint with Vancouver) and bad defender (showed flashes but wildly inconsistent).

I agree but IMO he still has a good case over guys like Battier and Tony Allen who were role players. Abdur-Rahim was a 20/10 big man at his peak who actually shot a bit over league average despite garbage teammates.

Battier’s and Allen’s respective peak play led more directly to winning than did Abdur-Rahim’s play. Yes, he had a terrible team, but he never made that terrible team better as Vancouver was better on court without him and that’s with a terrible expansion roster.

[Doctor MJ]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim should be considered IMO. Not saying he will make my list but maybe...

He played on garbage teams and his teams were mostly better without him than with him. Mediocre scorer, poor to terrible playmaker for a player with a high usage (26.7 USG% over his 5 year stint with Vancouver) and bad defender (showed flashes but wildly inconsistent).

I agree but IMO he still has a good case over guys like Battier and Tony Allen who were role players. Abdur-Rahim was a 20/10 big man at his peak who actually shot a bit over league average despite garbage teammates.

Well, this gets into major difference in how players are valued that the PC boarders in this thread (myself included) have crossed the Rubicon on.

The perspective you're bringing up - which I think you're bringing up because you know it's the elephant in the room, and I'm glad you did - is the assumed pecking order of "best players" being something like this:

1. Good "Stars" - (where the Star role is defined by high minute and high primacy play)
2. Bad "Stars"
3. Good "Role Players"
4. Bad Players

And what I and others would say is that being an effective role player isn't just more valuable than an ineffective star, it requires a set of skills that are often harder to learn than star skills. Why? It has a lot to do with awareness. When you know your job is to find ways to support the Stars you play with, you look for different things than when you're just waiting for a teammate to pass it to you so you can do what you've been doing since you were a kid.

And the proof in the pudding here for me are the guys who can't quite make it as Stars, who then can't seem to catch on as role players. I think of Michael Beasley as a classic example here. At the college level, he was an exceptional offensive star. He goes to the pros, can't quite do his thing any more, and since that's literally what he was good at, he circles the drain.

Now, I will also say that for some failed stars, much of the question of whether they'll succeed in transforming into good role players has to do non-physical concerns. When you're OJ Mayo or Austin Rivers and you've been devoting yourself to becoming the next LeBron or Kobe, can you get yourself enthused about learning to play the game like a pawn? But this only makes clear why becoming a successful NBA role player should be given much respect.

Shane Battier was a master role player, and particularly early in his career, a real defensive force. If I were looking to put together a team - for a year or whatever - and I wanted the team to have a chance to be great, I take Battier over Abdur-Rahim without hesitation.

[Colbinii]

Well, I started by comparing Pau and Gasol. Then moved on from there as those 2 are anchoring points.

1. 2006 Pau Gasol
With the Grizzlies, there's not many glaring individual postseason runs and in terms of regular season. In regular season, 2006 team (49 wins & 5th in NRtg with +4.3) is only 2nd to 2013 team (56 wins & 7th in NRtg with +4.6) in the franchise history. Considering roster structure and quality, 2006 Pau is more impressive than 2013 Marc to me. I'm aware of Battier's massive impact. Between Pau and Battier, that's more about the fundamental difference between floor raising and ceiling raising.
Also worth noting that, even though the Grizzlies made it WCF in 2013, if we compare Pau's and Marc's performances against the Spurs in 2006 and 2013, when the Grizzlies were utterly outclassed, Pau definitely performed better.

RE Bolded: Whats the difference between Gasol and Battier in this regard?

Memphis was better both in 2005 and 2006 with Battier in comparison to Gasol.

We see Battier leave in 2007 and Memphis completely fall apart while Houston improves defensively with the addition of Battier (From 6th to 3rd, an increase of ~3 Drtg) even with Ming missing more time than he did in 2006.

Whats interesting is every season from 2002-2006, the Grizzles are better with Battier compared to Gasol. In fact, what supports Battier's claim even more-so is the fact in 2005, when Gasol missed time (26 games), the Grizzles performed better in the 80 game sample of Battier in comparison to 56 games of Gasol.

Logically speaking, if a team has 2 stars, Gasol and Battier, and one of them gets hurt, the hurt players on-court rating should be higher since that player spent all their time with the other while the player who played without the hurt player should have a lower on-court rating. This doesn't appear to be true, which makes me want to conclude, including other data, Battier and Gasol were not equals and one player was simply a better, more impactful player.

[Odinn21]

...

I read +/- driven data with offensive load and volume in mind. Battier is one of the best complementary pieces ever, when he's playing next to an impactful 20+ ppg scorer. That's what I meant by floor and ceiling raising in my comment.

In your example; Battier's offensive duties did not change drastically. He was still a one-way player who got to specialize at the one aspect he was good at it as he'd like. That's the issue with one-way players.

Also, I think you forgot that Gasol was injured at the beginning of the season in 2006-07? He missed the first 22 games (5-17) and he couldn't play 30+ minutes for 8 more games (1-7). By the time Gasol was in shape to play properly, the team was 6-24, they were literally sitting at the bottom of the league. They were 9 games behind of the last playoff spot with 52 games to go. It was a true tanking season due to Gasol missing that many games. Your comparison to the next season is not contextual to draw those conclusions.

[Colbinii]

...

I read +/- driven data with offensive load and volume in mind. Battier is one of the best complementary pieces ever, when he's playing next to an impactful 20+ ppg scorer. That's what I meant by floor and ceiling raising in my comment.

In your example; Battier's offensive duties did not change drastically. He was still a one-way player who got to specialize at the one aspect he was good at it as he'd like. That's the issue with one-way players.

Also, I think you forgot that Gasol was injured at the beginning of the season in 2006-07? He missed the first 22 games (5-17) and he couldn't play 30+ minutes for 8 more games (1-7). By the time Gasol was in shape to play properly, the team was 6-24, they were literally sitting at the bottom of the league. They were 9 games behind of the last playoff spot with 52 games to go. It was a true tanking season due to Gasol missing that many games. Your comparison to the next season is not contextual to draw those conclusions.

You're right, my mistake on 2007.

Nothing I have read or seen makes Gasol a better player than Battier though. In fact, it only reinforces the evidence for Battier. 20 PPG scorers grow on trees, players like Battier are far more unique and valuable.

[Odinn21]

You're right, my mistake on 2007.

Nothing I have read or seen makes Gasol a better player than Battier though. In fact, it only reinforces the evidence for Battier. 20 PPG scorers grow on trees, players like Battier are far more unique and valuable.

Gasol was a positive impact on offense with decently high volume scoring and also a positive impact on defense too. We're not talking about Tyreke Evans a 20 ppg scorer with direct negative impact on offense or Michael Redd who was a positive impact on offense but a bigger negative impact on defense.

Your closing statement is like "marginal value" argument which I tend to disagree with fwiw.

[Doctor MJ]

...

I read +/- driven data with offensive load and volume in mind. Battier is one of the best complementary pieces ever, when he's playing next to an impactful 20+ ppg scorer. That's what I meant by floor and ceiling raising in my comment.

In your example; Battier's offensive duties did not change drastically. He was still a one-way player who got to specialize at the one aspect he was good at it as he'd like. That's the issue with one-way players.

I'd really object to Battier being called a one-way player. The fact that Battier adapted to a role with less ball-primacy as the team settled upon a Gasol-focused offense was him doing what was most valuable in the context of that teammate.

While I'm fine with rating Gasol's offense above Battier's, the whole thing with Battier was that he found ways to impact in the openings availed to him in the context of whatever stars he played with.

Re: floor and ceiling raising. I think we just diverge here philosophically. While I don't want to talk as if floor-raising as if it doesn't matter, the reason why the Grizzlies & Gasol parted ways was that Gasol himself was dissatisfied with how things were going and of course legendary found his true NBA groove as the #2 on the Lakers.

Now I'll say: I rank Gasol ahead of Battier on my GOAT list by a good margin, and the Grizzly years certainly factor in a good deal on top of the signature Laker years. I'm not looking to bash Gasol for what he did in Memphis. Never the less, Battier was playing in a role that he could more easily scale onto better teams and shows +/- indicators of being impactful than Gasol while they were teammates. I respect what Battier was doing enough that I don't think feel right moving Gasol ahead in this year-by-year context simply because I consider Gasol as the more impressive overall package, because it feels like I'm fudging.

[Odinn21]

...

I'm not so sure if Battier could ever reach to 18-20 ppg territory because even in his rookie season, his scoring was dependant on others to create for him. His go-to moves were almost non-existent, (either way, scoring or creating for others). If I recall correctly, the reason Battier transitioned into a lesser offensive load was Hubie Brown's evaluation of him. I'd say Brown got it right.
The way I see it, Battier's defense was enabled by Gasol's offense because Gasol being a more valuable offensive piece helped Battier's motor and focus on defense more than the vice versa. (Wonder if I'd ever said this to you, I'm having a massive deja vu right now.)

Unrelated; one of the what if's I have is built on Battier and Hubie Brown. That what if is Andre Iguodala. What if Iggy had a teammate that could provide a 18+ ppg offensive hub with more impact and had a coach that could see how to utilize him properly. He could've found his groove way earlier in his career.

[LA Bird]

1. 2013 Marc Gasol
2. 2017 Mike Conley
Conley would have been #1 if he had combined his 13 defense with his 17 offense but the little tradeoff between the two versions made him slip behind Gasol here IMO. Marc is one of the best passing and mid-range shooting centers and a DPOY level defender.

3. 2006 Shane Battier
4. 2006 Pau Gasol
But he is a role player though. People always say defense wins championships and basketball is played on both ends but when it comes to actually giving credit where it's due, the role player argument gets brought out to belittle defenders who aren't scorers. The Grizzlies were the #2 defense and with Duncan having a down year, Battier actually had a stronger case for DPOY than a lot of people realize. Pau is great on offense but his defense was always mediocre and I think the team success during his Lakers years make people view his Grizzlies years more favorably in retrospect than they otherwise would.

5. 2015 Tony Allen
This spot should probably go to ZBo because of the difference in minutes played but I love Allen so I am going to be biased here and pick him instead. The greatest defensive season ever per possession by a guard.

Re: Shareef Abdur-Rahim. He had good box scores but he was a poor defender. The go to argument for volume scorers over role players is that they are better at carrying poor teams but how much floor raising was Shareef actually providing if the Grizzlies was only winning 20 games with him anyway?

[Doctor MJ]

...

I'm not so sure if Battier could ever reach to 18-20 ppg territory because even in his rookie season, his scoring was dependant on others to create for him. His go-to moves were almost non-existent, (either way, scoring or creating for others). If I recall correctly, the reason Battier transitioned into a lesser offensive load was Hubie Brown's evaluation of him. I'd say Brown got it right.
The way I see it, Battier's defense was enabled by Gasol's offense because Gasol being a more valuable offensive piece helped Battier's motor and focus on defense more than the vice versa. (Wonder if I'd ever said this to you, I'm having a massive deja vu right now.)

Unrelated; one of the what if's I have is built on Battier and Hubie Brown. That what if is Andre Iguodala. What if Iggy had a teammate that could provide a 18+ ppg offensive hub with more impact and had a coach that could see how to utilize him properly. He could've found his groove way earlier in his career.

I didn't mean to imply that Battier was a 20 ppg guy who sacrificed for others. I think he was used close to optimally.

Re: Battier's defense enabled by Gasol's offense. Eh, seems like you're using the reasoning, "If Gasol wasn't there, Battier would have had to score like Gasol, he'd be a lot worse at it and it would pull away from his defense." But by that reasoning, you could dismiss a team's defensive MVP every time he wasn't also the team's offensive MVP. "Russell's defense was great, but he's just lucky Cousy was jacking so many shots...".

I think Battier more than proved he was able to play his game in a variety of settings.

[Odinn21]

I didn't mean to imply that Battier was a 20 ppg guy who sacrificed for others. I think he was used close to optimally.

Re: Battier's defense enabled by Gasol's offense. Eh, seems like you're using the reasoning, "If Gasol wasn't there, Battier would have had to score like Gasol, he'd be a lot worse at it and it would pull away from his defense." But by that reasoning, you could dismiss a team's defensive MVP every time he wasn't also the team's offensive MVP. "Russell's defense was great, but he's just lucky Cousy was jacking so many shots...".

I think Battier more than proved he was able to play his game in a variety of settings.

I disagreed with Colbinii for his comment as "20 ppg scorers grow on a tree" because Gasol was proved to be an impactful offensive hub. Not many 20 ppg scorers are impactful. I disagree once again with your example of Russell and Cousy because, again, Gasol was an impactful offensive force.
Both counter arguments were made in a sense that to show off importance of quality defense, they also used negative offensive impact which was not the case with Gasol.

---

By the way, we have 3 and a half hours left on the clock for this one. I know that the Grizzlies is not a popular franchise but let's not drop below 10 votes per thread please. A couple or few more is definitely welcomed.

[70sFan]

1. 2014/15 Marc Gasol - elite defensive player and very smart passer. Combined that with his shooting and screening, he became clear positive offensive player as well despite not being elite scorer. One of the best post defenders ever as well, always gave the best bigmen rough time (Duncan, Embiid, Cousins, even Jokic now...).

2. 2005/06 Pau Gasol - I don't agree that Pau was less impactful than Battier, I always find Pau to be highly underappreciated player. He didn't become notably better in LA and he had to carry some very weak offensive rosters in Memphis.

3. 2016/17 Mike Conley - excellent PG who did everything well (still does), but I don't think he peaked higher than Gasol brothers.

4. 2005/06 Shane Battier - monstrous defensive impact for a wing defender, one of the smartest defenders ever.

5. 2010/11 Zach Randolph - I have to include him for what he did to the Spurs in 2011. He was tough competitor and very physical player which made him tough opponent for anyone.

I wanted to include Tony Allen, but he never stayed long enough on the court.

[jptremblay]

1. 2013 Marc Gasol
2. 2017 Mike Conley
Conley would have been #1 if he had combined his 13 defense with his 17 offense but the little tradeoff between the two versions made him slip behind Gasol here IMO. Marc is one of the best passing and mid-range shooting centers and a DPOY level defender.

3. 2006 Shane Battier
4. 2006 Pau Gasol
But he is a role player though. People always say defense wins championships and basketball is played on both ends but when it comes to actually giving credit where it's due, the role player argument gets brought out to belittle defenders who aren't scorers. The Grizzlies were the #2 defense and with Duncan having a down year, Battier actually had a stronger case for DPOY than a lot of people realize. Pau is great on offense but his defense was always mediocre and I think the team success during his Lakers years make people view his Grizzlies years more favorably in retrospect than they otherwise would.

5. 2015 Tony Allen
This spot should probably go to ZBo because of the difference in minutes played but I love Allen so I am going to be biased here and pick him instead. The greatest defensive season ever per possession by a guard.

Re: Shareef Abdur-Rahim. He had good box scores but he was a poor defender. The go to argument for volume scorers over role players is that they are better at carrying poor teams but how much floor raising was Shareef actually providing if the Grizzlies was only winning 20 games with him anyway?

Pau Gasol in his prime was a good defender, he only sucked in that category in his rookie/sophomore years and in his last years. About his Grizzlies days, those rosters were Philadelphia Iverson level of disgusting offensive talent, so except some bad performances in postseason, Grizzlies were overachieving those years considering the quality on the roster.