2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[Doctor MJ]

My description of Durant is it's as if he developed a game to the best one on one or pick up basketball player ever, then entered the NBA.

Completely agree, though I'll say I see a lot of guys like this. To me this is Wilt, this is Jordan, this is Kobe, and yes, this is KD.

It's a perspective where in the end "Who's better?" gets decided based on what you can do without any help that's really antithetical to traditional basketball philosophy.

I'd say among the players listed, this is where I see KD as being a lot like Wilt while Kobe is more like Jordan. In particular I'll note that Wilt & KD have gotten really, really frustrated at being told what they're not doing right, which is really quite natural when a) your talent allows you to do so much right, but b) you're forever missing stuff because you don't understand the gestalt of team basketball, and c) you dwell on the critical things people say of you.

[Strepbacter]

This doesn't change the fact that he often missed open passes for easy buckets when he wasn't in pass-mode, which was how he played the vast majority of the time.

No, this is just more hyperbole. Perimeter players with the type of offensive impact that Bryant had don't miss "open" passes often. You are simply vastly overstating things.

The best passers are the guys who consistently see, throw, and make the passes we don't see coming.

He threw these type of passes all the time.

The next group down are the guys who consistently see, throw, and make the passes we can see.

Again, he threw these type of passes all the time.

Again, you don't have the type of offensive impact that Bryant did without consistently punishing teams for sending help.

Kobe's in a group below them.

He's really not. You really need to step back and try to look at things with more nuance.

Re: "you accuse...appealing to authority...then build strawmen". Dude, I just gave my opinion, and you responded by mocking me for daring to be critical of a basketball player as if I were some inferior being.

Nah. Just pointing how comically over-the-top your critisms are.

It's important not to confuse the brevity of a single post about a player for the entirety of the author's understanding of the player in question.

You went for brevity and ended up with statement that was comically hyperbolic, reductive, and totally lacking in nuance. It it what it is.

Okay, so now you're simply saying "Nuh uh" to my observations while using the phrase "offensive impact" as proof that a guy is hitting passes as well as the very best passers. If you want to go into more specific data, please do so, but as things stand you seem like you're pushing back away from concrete events to point to an abstraction that doesn't say what you think it says.

But I'll also say this: Surely you're aware of the on-going trope of Kobe taking shots with 3+ defenders around him. Most Kobe fans I know - and I know a lot being born & raised here - specifically love this about Kobe. They imagine it demonstrating his determination and his unstoppability. Leaving aside the problems with lionizing shots that are low percentage makes, whenever you see a situation where there's that much attention on Kobe, there were teammates open, and he wasn't looking for them.

This sort of "tunnel vision" isn't a Kobe-thing. It's a looking-to-score thing. Some guys have it whenever they have the ball, others have it at various stages of their shot-creation process - and even guys who are generally seen as pass-first get to looking-to-score mode, else they'd never score.

And guys from volume scoring backgrounds are specifically known for reacting to the coach saying "Hey, you know you've got teammates open to pass to in that spot", with a huff of "Fine, you want me to pass, I'll be the best passer you've ever seen!". Wilt was the original, and Kobe's got more than a little in common with him in his mindset.

This whole post is nothing more than sweeping generalizations, overblown narratives, reductive nonsense, and some truly painful attempts at armchair psychology. Oh, and your method for evaluating passing is just YOUR method. It's not some perfect criteria. It's not even close.

Your original statement is as comically over-the-top as ever and it's honestly amazing that you don't see why.

Again, you need to step back and try to look at things with more nuance.

[Texas Chuck]

repeatedly asking someone else to use nuance while using none yourself is certainly a strategy to take, but not one likely to lead anywhere positive.

We get it. You love Kobe and don't like hearing that he's not an elite passer. The problem is, despite you really not wanting to hear anything that isn't positive, Kobe like every other player wasn't perfect. And he definitely isn't on one of the top tiers of passers/playmakers in NBA history and no about of "nuance" is ever going to make that so.

[Strepbacter]

Yeah, barging in with a bunch of flimsy straw-men is a much better strategy. Great job, buddy.

[Peregrine01]

I don't think there's been another year when the probable 7 and 8 seeds had a greater chance to upset the 1st and 2nd than this year. Neither the Lakers or Warriors are typical 7 and 8 seeds. For the Lakers, they missed Bron and AD for long stretches and are going to be back for the playoffs. For the Warriors, they are 12-5 since the Wiseman injury and rank near the top in net rating since then. The matchups won't look good either: Suns match up poorly with the Lakers and so do the Jazz with the Warriors.

[eminence]

Oh yeah, for sure a pair of the more dangerous 7/8 seeds in my memory. I'm hoping the Jazz can get healthy by the time the series starts.

Dray's very quietly put together a fringe allstar regular season.

[Statlanta]

If the Warriors and Lakers remain where they are and upset the 1st and 2nd seeds, wouldn't that prove the regular season to be even more worthless than it is?

[NinjaSheppard]

If they remain where they are and lose in the first round wouldn't that prove the regular season is more meaningful than it is?

[parsnips33]

Oh yeah, for sure a pair of the more dangerous 7/8 seeds in my memory. I'm hoping the Jazz can get healthy by the time the series starts.

Dray's very quietly put together a fringe allstar regular season.

Draymond has been so good this year. Can't help but think where this team would be if the goal this whole year had been winning

[Bidofo]

A Warriors-Lakers play-in game leading to a Warriors-Lakers WCF would be absurd and amazing for ratings, I'm sure the league is praying for it.

[falcolombardi]

A Warriors-Lakers play-in game leading to a Warriors-Lakers WCF would be absurd and amazing for ratings, I'm sure the league is praying for it.

the single game rstings would be great and maybe drive some extra interest for the rest of the playoffs

but it also means one of curry and lebron is playing only 1 game

not a 5 or 6 game series (worst case scenario) but only 1 game

[parsnips33]

As a Warriors fan, I really hope Lakers get back to the 6th seed. Lakers scare me in a way the Blazers simply do not

As a basketball fan, single elimination game between Steph and Lebron is just too juicy

[Colbinii]

A Warriors-Lakers play-in game leading to a Warriors-Lakers WCF would be absurd and amazing for ratings, I'm sure the league is praying for it.

the single game rstings would be great and maybe drive some extra interest for the rest of the playoffs

but it also means one of curry and lebron is playing only 1 game

not a 5 or 6 game series (worst case scenario) but only 1 game

I dont think you understand the play-in.

7 seed plays 8 and then the loser plays the winner of 9-10.

[falcolombardi]

A Warriors-Lakers play-in game leading to a Warriors-Lakers WCF would be absurd and amazing for ratings, I'm sure the league is praying for it.

the single game rstings would be great and maybe drive some extra interest for the rest of the playoffs

but it also means one of curry and lebron is playing only 1 game

not a 5 or 6 game series (worst case scenario) but only 1 game

I dont think you understand the play-in.

7 seed plays 8 and then the loser plays the winner of 9-10.

that is still a risk that curry or lebron play only 2 play in games compared to 4-7 in a series + whatever more after that first round if they advance

even a first round loss would still be 5 or 6 games

is a small risk but is there

[Peregrine01]

Haven't been this excited for the playoffs in a while. The West is crazy. Lakers and Warriors look like the most likely 7th and 8th seeds and IMO there's never been a bigger chance of an upset of the 1st and 2nd seeds. Warriors just beat the Jazz and Suns in a back to back on an 8-man rotation lol.

[Lakers LeBron]

I've always considered the 2010 Thunder to be the best 8th seed ever. Young and absurdly athletic, they were only the 8th seed because they played around .500 for the first half of the season. But they improved massively over the course of the season and played at close to a 60 win pace over the second half of the season. By the time the playoffs rolled around, they were not your average 50 win team, and they ended up giving the Lakers their closest series that year by point differential.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2010-nba-western-conference-first-round-thunder-vs-lakers.html

But this Warriors team might be even better. I've never seen one player have the kind of negative impact on a team as James Wiseman has had. Its just night and day without him. Wiseman not playing is probably worth more wins than your average superstar actually playing for a team

[CKRT]

I've always considered the 2010 Thunder to be the best 8th seed ever. Young and absurdly athletic, they were only the 8th seed because they played around .500 for the first half of the season. But they improved massively over the course of the season and played at close to a 60 win pace over the second half of the season. By the time the playoffs rolled around, they were not your average 50 win team, and they ended up giving the Lakers their closest series that year by point differential.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2010-nba-western-conference-first-round-thunder-vs-lakers.html

But this Warriors team might be even better. I've never seen one player have the kind of negative impact on a team as James Wiseman has had. Its just night and day without him. Wiseman not playing is probably worth more wins than your average superstar actually playing for a team

Warriors certainly have an advantage of the 2010 Thunder by virtue of having Steph/Dray in their primes but people forget how bad Jeff Green was for them and how much he absolutely tanked them. Brooks had a weird love affair with giving Green minutes over Harden, I think you could certainly make an argument that the 2010 Thunder were better if Jeff Green was benched or just played spot minutes instead of eating 38 minutes a game.

[parsnips33]

Cool to see Steph, CP3, and Russ all put their stamp on this season. The age of the point guard is not over yet

[Colbinii]

Cool to see Steph, CP3, and Russ all put their stamp on this season. The age of the point guard is not over yet

Curry, Kyrie, CP3, Harden, Russ, Lillard, LeBron, Luka, Trae, Jrue and Simmons are all top 40-ish players. Definitely a deep list.

[frica]

Jokic still has more OREBs per game than Embiid.