Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM

[JonFromVA]

But I don't understand the thought process behind extending Sexton at starter money before you've determined whether he can start on a good team.

The Cavs will pay Collin based on how they project his performance in the future, not based on the present. He's too young for that.

Which does not mean they'll ignore how the Sexland experiment has gone, but they will also need to consider the opportunity cost.

What would they do with the cap space if Collin wasn't on the books?

What can they get for him if they wanted to trade him?

What are the repercussions if they play "hardball" with Collin in negotiations?

The Sexland experiment hasn't exactly gone well. Neither player has shown the ability to drive the team to wins, let alone together; but it's not hard to toss them a mulligan based on circumstances/injuries/Covid/lineups/etc.

If they extend Collin this Summer, it just means the Cavs believe they've seen enough already. If they don't, they can continue to evaluate next season.

[jbk1234]

But I don't understand the thought process behind extending Sexton at starter money before you've determined whether he can start on a good team.

The Cavs will pay Collin based on how they project his performance in the future, not based on the present. He's too young for that.

Which does not mean they'll ignore how the Sexland experiment has gone, but they will also need to consider the opportunity cost.

What would they do with the cap space if Collin wasn't on the books?

What can they get for him if they wanted to trade him?

What are the repercussions if they play "hardball" with Collin in negotiations?

The Sexland experiment hasn't exactly gone well. Neither player has shown the ability to drive the team to wins, let alone together; but it's not hard to toss them a mulligan based on circumstances/injuries/Covid/lineups/etc.

If they extend Collin this Summer, it just means the Cavs believe they've seen enough already. If they don't, they can continue to evaluate next season.

As to the last paragraph, I'd seriously question their judgment if they extended him early.

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[JonFromVA]

But I don't understand the thought process behind extending Sexton at starter money before you've determined whether he can start on a good team.

The Cavs will pay Collin based on how they project his performance in the future, not based on the present. He's too young for that.

Which does not mean they'll ignore how the Sexland experiment has gone, but they will also need to consider the opportunity cost.

What would they do with the cap space if Collin wasn't on the books?

What can they get for him if they wanted to trade him?

What are the repercussions if they play "hardball" with Collin in negotiations?

The Sexland experiment hasn't exactly gone well. Neither player has shown the ability to drive the team to wins, let alone together; but it's not hard to toss them a mulligan based on circumstances/injuries/Covid/lineups/etc.

If they extend Collin this Summer, it just means the Cavs believe they've seen enough already. If they don't, they can continue to evaluate next season.

As to the last paragraph, I'd seriously question their judgment if they extended him early.

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Wouldn't that depend on the number?

IMO, its all about projection, and I'd expect the Cavs are optimistic about a player they've drafted and developed The proof might still be years away

[jbk1234]

The Cavs will pay Collin based on how they project his performance in the future, not based on the present. He's too young for that.

Which does not mean they'll ignore how the Sexland experiment has gone, but they will also need to consider the opportunity cost.

What would they do with the cap space if Collin wasn't on the books?

What can they get for him if they wanted to trade him?

What are the repercussions if they play "hardball" with Collin in negotiations?

The Sexland experiment hasn't exactly gone well. Neither player has shown the ability to drive the team to wins, let alone together; but it's not hard to toss them a mulligan based on circumstances/injuries/Covid/lineups/etc.

If they extend Collin this Summer, it just means the Cavs believe they've seen enough already. If they don't, they can continue to evaluate next season.

As to the last paragraph, I'd seriously question their judgment if they extended him early.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Wouldn't that depend on the number?

IMO, its all about projection, and I'd expect the Cavs are optimistic about a player they've drafted and developed The proof might still be years away

I question their judgment if they extended him early in anticipation of his defense taking the leap it needs to for him to remain a starter alongside a traditional sized PG.

[Harper4Ferry?]

It would be shocking if Sexton didn't get an extension. I'd venture to say that productive, healthy 3 year starters with the team they were drafted by are nearly a 100% proposition to be extended. If they don't extend him, they'll need to to trade him this summer. Only real question is whether we'd offer a 5 year max(which will push Garland out the door) or a 4 year max.

[toooskies]

As to the last paragraph, I'd seriously question their judgment if they extended him early.

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Wouldn't that depend on the number?

IMO, its all about projection, and I'd expect the Cavs are optimistic about a player they've drafted and developed The proof might still be years away

I question their judgment if they extended him early in anticipation of his defense taking the leap it needs to for him to remain a starter alongside a traditional sized PG.

Or, his offense continues to improve to make up for his defensive shortcomings. Sexton's a hard worker by all accounts, I don't expect him to stall out where he is.

[JonFromVA]

As to the last paragraph, I'd seriously question their judgment if they extended him early.

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Wouldn't that depend on the number?

IMO, its all about projection, and I'd expect the Cavs are optimistic about a player they've drafted and developed The proof might still be years away

I question their judgment if they extended him early in anticipation of his defense taking the leap it needs to for him to remain a starter alongside a traditional sized PG.

I like to assume the coaching staff and front office understand the potential and limitations of these players far better than we do. They have after all millions of dollars of resources at their disposal, and we just do this as a hobby.

Whether the right people are allowed to act on their knowledge is sometimes a concern with the organization, but only time (which they may or may not have) will actually prove out their choices.

Thanks to the lack of communication from the FO, I'm not even sure what they're looking for from their players and how they are gauging progress. After the season is over, they may at least talk more openly about things like injuries and coping with the restraints due to the pandemic.

Media/fans are going to judge of course, but personally, I'm more interested in the process and why they're doing what they're doing and I suspect I'm just not going to get the kind of information I need to tell if they have a coherent plan in place to build a team that will eventually make sense and win games.

Sam Hinkie never should have opened his mouth to the extent he did, but he sure made it very clear what the Sixers were trying to do and how they were going about it and as a result he got the fan base on board.

[jbk1234]

It would be shocking if Sexton didn't get an extension. I'd venture to say that productive, healthy 3 year starters with the team they were drafted by are nearly a 100% proposition to be extended. If they don't extend him, they'll need to to trade him this summer. Only real question is whether we'd offer a 5 year max(which will push Garland out the door) or a 4 year max.

He'll be untradeable on either deal. I don't understand how so may fans can watch three years of 20 point losses and think any type of extension in that range is a good idea. I really don't get it.

[jbk1234]

The Cavs will pay Collin based on how they project his performance in the future, not based on the present. He's too young for that.

Which does not mean they'll ignore how the Sexland experiment has gone, but they will also need to consider the opportunity cost.

What would they do with the cap space if Collin wasn't on the books?

What can they get for him if they wanted to trade him?

What are the repercussions if they play "hardball" with Collin in negotiations?

The Sexland experiment hasn't exactly gone well. Neither player has shown the ability to drive the team to wins, let alone together; but it's not hard to toss them a mulligan based on circumstances/injuries/Covid/lineups/etc.

If they extend Collin this Summer, it just means the Cavs believe they've seen enough already. If they don't, they can continue to evaluate next season.

As to the last paragraph, I'd seriously question their judgment if they extended him early.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Wouldn't that depend on the number?

IMO, its all about projection, and I'd expect the Cavs are optimistic about a player they've drafted and developed The proof might still be years away

Projecting improvement upon players, and then paying them before you have to based on those projections, is how teams end up extending guys like Wiggins and Buddy Heild on contracts that cost twice as much as they would've if they only waited a year. People are being way too dismissive of the long-term consequences of Sexton not living up to such a contract. If you're not sure, you don't pay the guy before you have to. If the player is angry about it, he can go out and prove to you that he's worth the money in his fourth year.

[JonFromVA]

As to the last paragraph, I'd seriously question their judgment if they extended him early.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Wouldn't that depend on the number?

IMO, its all about projection, and I'd expect the Cavs are optimistic about a player they've drafted and developed The proof might still be years away

Projecting improvement upon players, and then paying them before you have to based on those projections, is how teams end up extending guys like Wiggins and Buddy Heild on contracts that cost twice as much as they would've if they only waited a year. People are being way too dismissive of the long-term consequences of Sexton not living up to such a contract. If you're not sure, you don't pay the guy before you have to. If the player is angry about it, he can go out and prove to you that he's worth the money in his fourth year.

Altman isn't getting paid the big bucks to manage risk. He's supposed to get out in front of it.

[jbk1234]

Wouldn't that depend on the number?

IMO, its all about projection, and I'd expect the Cavs are optimistic about a player they've drafted and developed The proof might still be years away

Projecting improvement upon players, and then paying them before you have to based on those projections, is how teams end up extending guys like Wiggins and Buddy Heild on contracts that cost twice as much as they would've if they only waited a year. People are being way too dismissive of the long-term consequences of Sexton not living up to such a contract. If you're not sure, you don't pay the guy before you have to. If the player is angry about it, he can go out and prove to you that he's worth the money in his fourth year.

Altman isn't getting paid the big bucks to manage risk. He's supposed to get out in front of it.

Part of risk management is NOT taking risks you're uncomfortable taking. We haven't seen enough and we're not convinced by what we've seen is a perfectly acceptable conclusion.

[JonFromVA]

Projecting improvement upon players, and then paying them before you have to based on those projections, is how teams end up extending guys like Wiggins and Buddy Heild on contracts that cost twice as much as they would've if they only waited a year. People are being way too dismissive of the long-term consequences of Sexton not living up to such a contract. If you're not sure, you don't pay the guy before you have to. If the player is angry about it, he can go out and prove to you that he's worth the money in his fourth year.

Altman isn't getting paid the big bucks to manage risk. He's supposed to get out in front of it.

Part of risk management is NOT taking risks you're uncomfortable taking. We haven't seen enough and we're not convinced by what we've seen is a perfectly acceptable conclusion.

I think you mean you haven't seen enough. If Koby hasn't seen enough to know how much he does or doesn't value a player, that's likely just another reason Dan would be considering firing him.

[jbk1234]

Altman isn't getting paid the big bucks to manage risk. He's supposed to get out in front of it.

Part of risk management is NOT taking risks you're uncomfortable taking. We haven't seen enough and we're not convinced by what we've seen is a perfectly acceptable conclusion.

I think you mean you haven't seen enough. If Koby hasn't seen enough to know how much he does or doesn't value a player, that's likely just another reason Dan would be considering firing him.

I've seen enough to know that handing Sexton a big contract is not good risk management. I'd straight up tell him he hasn't shown enough on the defensive end of the floor to justify that type of commitment, but that if he's able to change that next season, we're willing to revisit the following summer. The Cavs are free to tell him whatever they like. Just don't make a mistake you won't be able to unwind for years.

[Harper4Ferry?]

It would be shocking if Sexton didn't get an extension. I'd venture to say that productive, healthy 3 year starters with the team they were drafted by are nearly a 100% proposition to be extended. If they don't extend him, they'll need to to trade him this summer. Only real question is whether we'd offer a 5 year max(which will push Garland out the door) or a 4 year max.

He'll be untradeable on either deal. I don't understand how so may fans can watch three years of 20 point losses and think any type of extension in that range is a good idea. I really don't get it.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's a horrible deal. But looking at years of history, guys like Sexton(high volume scorers who are on the team they're drafted by) are almost always overpaid and maxed after their 3rd season. Only player really comparable might be Jaylen Brown who took 25million a season instead of the max and that was coming off only scoring 13ppg.

My personal opinion is that I would trade Sexton before I'd max him. And I'd probably consider the same with Garland(too small, unless he wants to shoot 10 3's a game he's a liability). I'd only really keep Okoro(who might also suck, but is worth keeping to find out), Allen(at 4/100ish), Hartenstein, maybe Prince and Nance(even though he's always hurt) on the current roster. And I'd find another coach.

[JonFromVA]

Part of risk management is NOT taking risks you're uncomfortable taking. We haven't seen enough and we're not convinced by what we've seen is a perfectly acceptable conclusion.

I think you mean you haven't seen enough. If Koby hasn't seen enough to know how much he does or doesn't value a player, that's likely just another reason Dan would be considering firing him.

I've seen enough to know that handing Sexton a big contract is not good risk management. I'd straight up tell him he hasn't shown enough on the defensive end of the floor to justify that type of commitment, but that if he's able to change that next season, we're willing to revisit the following summer. The Cavs are free to tell him whatever they like. Just don't make a mistake you won't be able to unwind for years.

Heh, if Altman had to follow your rules of risk management, he would have traded all of his first round picks for players at a salary commiserate with their production.

Rebuilding through the draft is messy and risky.

[Stillwater]

Part of risk management is NOT taking risks you're uncomfortable taking. We haven't seen enough and we're not convinced by what we've seen is a perfectly acceptable conclusion.

I think you mean you haven't seen enough. If Koby hasn't seen enough to know how much he does or doesn't value a player, that's likely just another reason Dan would be considering firing him.

I've seen enough to know that handing Sexton a big contract is not good risk management. I'd straight up tell him he hasn't shown enough on the defensive end of the floor to justify that type of commitment, but that if he's able to change that next season, we're willing to revisit the following summer. The Cavs are free to tell him whatever they like. Just don't make a mistake you won't be able to unwind for years.

I get the concerns of overpaying someone and having it hold the org hostage like KLove is. However Sexton is not a injury liability and despite your claims about not doing enough defensively you give a pass to DG despite being a meh defender as well. You can argue until blue in the cheeks about it and DG being better but neither one is a + defender and never will be so if that is important in the final determination of contract valuations so be it, but offensive only players are always paid more than 2 way role players CLE is a small market that has to overpay etc. It is the sad realty and if anything I would hope that Sexton would prefer to be a part of this org enough to take a discount , but as is the odds are better he and the org are growing farther apart if they continue to put garbage around him and he continues to get **** from a delusional fan base that expects him to pass like a 1 guard playing next to a guard who cant do anything but pass and has the keys etc.

[JonFromVA]

It would be shocking if Sexton didn't get an extension. I'd venture to say that productive, healthy 3 year starters with the team they were drafted by are nearly a 100% proposition to be extended. If they don't extend him, they'll need to to trade him this summer. Only real question is whether we'd offer a 5 year max(which will push Garland out the door) or a 4 year max.

He'll be untradeable on either deal. I don't understand how so may fans can watch three years of 20 point losses and think any type of extension in that range is a good idea. I really don't get it.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's a horrible deal. But looking at years of history, guys like Sexton(high volume scorers who are on the team they're drafted by) are almost always overpaid and maxed after their 3rd season. Only player really comparable might be Jaylen Brown who took 25million a season instead of the max and that was coming off only scoring 13ppg.

My personal opinion is that I would trade Sexton before I'd max him. And I'd probably consider the same with Garland(too small, unless he wants to shoot 10 3's a game he's a liability). I'd only really keep Okoro(who might also suck, but is worth keeping to find out), Allen(at 4/100ish), Hartenstein, maybe Prince and Nance(even though he's always hurt) on the current roster. And I'd find another coach.

If we're going down that rabbit hole, the first move has got to be to fire Koby Altman and let the new GM worry about the coach.

Because basically you're saying there's a fairly high chance he just wasted the past 4 seasons.

[jbk1234]

I think you mean you haven't seen enough. If Koby hasn't seen enough to know how much he does or doesn't value a player, that's likely just another reason Dan would be considering firing him.

I've seen enough to know that handing Sexton a big contract is not good risk management. I'd straight up tell him he hasn't shown enough on the defensive end of the floor to justify that type of commitment, but that if he's able to change that next season, we're willing to revisit the following summer. The Cavs are free to tell him whatever they like. Just don't make a mistake you won't be able to unwind for years.

I get the concerns of overpaying someone and having it hold the org hostage like KLove is. However Sexton is not a injury liability and despite your claims about not doing enough defensively you give a pass to DG despite being a meh defender as well. You can argue until blue in the cheeks about it and DG being better but neither one is a + defender and never will be so if that is important in the final determination of contract valuations so be it, but offensive only players are always paid more than 2 way role players CLE is a small market that has to overpay etc. It is the sad realty and if anything I would hope that Sexton would prefer to be a part of this org enough to take a discount , but as is the odds are better he and the org are growing farther apart if they continue to put garbage around him and he continues to get **** from a delusional fan base that expects him to pass like a 1 guard playing next to a guard who cant do anything but pass and has the keys etc.

Let me be clear, the only time it's smart for a team to extend a young player on a rookie contract is if 1) it's a team friendly deal; or 2) the guy is a no brainer max player and you don't want him anywhere near the RFA market.

This applies to Garland as well as Sexton. You can always match an offer later or even offer the player a max deal on day one of F.A.like the Cavs did with Kyrie. What you can't do is get out a time machine and unextend a player after a disappointing fourth year as the Wolves found out with Wiggins and the Kings found out Buddy.

Just don't do it and don't let an agent convince you that hurt feelings are a good reason to make that type of commitment because they're not.

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[JonFromVA]

I've seen enough to know that handing Sexton a big contract is not good risk management. I'd straight up tell him he hasn't shown enough on the defensive end of the floor to justify that type of commitment, but that if he's able to change that next season, we're willing to revisit the following summer. The Cavs are free to tell him whatever they like. Just don't make a mistake you won't be able to unwind for years.

I get the concerns of overpaying someone and having it hold the org hostage like KLove is. However Sexton is not a injury liability and despite your claims about not doing enough defensively you give a pass to DG despite being a meh defender as well. You can argue until blue in the cheeks about it and DG being better but neither one is a + defender and never will be so if that is important in the final determination of contract valuations so be it, but offensive only players are always paid more than 2 way role players CLE is a small market that has to overpay etc. It is the sad realty and if anything I would hope that Sexton would prefer to be a part of this org enough to take a discount , but as is the odds are better he and the org are growing farther apart if they continue to put garbage around him and he continues to get **** from a delusional fan base that expects him to pass like a 1 guard playing next to a guard who cant do anything but pass and has the keys etc.

Let me be clear, the only time it's smart for a team to extend a young player on a rookie contract is if 1) it's a team friendly deal; or 2) the guy is a no brainer max player and you don't want him anywhere near the RFA market.

This applies to Garland as well as Sexton. You can always match an offer later or even offer the player a max deal on day one of F.A.like the Cavs did with Kyrie. What you can't do is get out a time machine and unextend a player after a disappointing fourth year as the Wolves found out with Wiggins and the Kings found out Buddy.

Just don't do it and don't let an agent convince you that hurt feelings are a good reason to make that type of commitment because they're not.

Either hurt feelings are a bigger problem than you think, or team's have some other reasons you're not considering; because they're constantly dishing out guaranteed money to players who haven't proven they deserve it.

[jbk1234]

I get the concerns of overpaying someone and having it hold the org hostage like KLove is. However Sexton is not a injury liability and despite your claims about not doing enough defensively you give a pass to DG despite being a meh defender as well. You can argue until blue in the cheeks about it and DG being better but neither one is a + defender and never will be so if that is important in the final determination of contract valuations so be it, but offensive only players are always paid more than 2 way role players CLE is a small market that has to overpay etc. It is the sad realty and if anything I would hope that Sexton would prefer to be a part of this org enough to take a discount , but as is the odds are better he and the org are growing farther apart if they continue to put garbage around him and he continues to get **** from a delusional fan base that expects him to pass like a 1 guard playing next to a guard who cant do anything but pass and has the keys etc.

Let me be clear, the only time it's smart for a team to extend a young player on a rookie contract is if 1) it's a team friendly deal; or 2) the guy is a no brainer max player and you don't want him anywhere near the RFA market.

This applies to Garland as well as Sexton. You can always match an offer later or even offer the player a max deal on day one of F.A.like the Cavs did with Kyrie. What you can't do is get out a time machine and unextend a player after a disappointing fourth year as the Wolves found out with Wiggins and the Kings found out Buddy.

Just don't do it and don't let an agent convince you that hurt feelings are a good reason to make that type of commitment because they're not.

Either hurt feelings are a bigger problem than you think, or team's have some other reasons you're not considering; because they're constantly dishing out guaranteed money to players who haven't proven they deserve it.

And regretting having done so when those extensions aren't team friendly far too often.

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