[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Heat

[Djoker]

Flash might be the greatest nickname ever too.

Since the we've had The Big Penguin and The Time Lord.

The newer generation shall always surpass the old.

Big Penguin is great. How about The Big Aristotle though... that one always makes me chuckle.

[Colbinii]

I think having both of 2020 Butler and Adebayo in the top 5 is a bit too generous because 2020 Heat were considerably deeper than the previous iterations those had Mourning&Hardaway and Wade&O'Neal as core.
2005 Heat were one of the frontrunners for the best team title in a very competitive season with Spurs, Suns, Pistons, Mavs. Wade's improvement from the previous season and Shaq made them so. The amount of extra wins Shaq brought were so obvious in that season.
Shaq had some problems in the playoffs but I just don't see 2005 Heat being that competitive with 2020 Adebayo instead of 2005 Shaq.

I agree--having both seems to be some sort of recency bias.

Did people forget Bam was injured for the Finals?

[Doctor MJ]

LeBron with two franchise peaks. Anyone else? Kareem? (Bucks and 1977 Kareem?) CP3 with New Orleans and Clippers?

Definitely expecting to put CP3 in my #1 slot for NO, so him, though I didn't put him in the number one spot for the Clips.

Don't think Kareem will get the #1 spot for the Lakers.

Wilt may get the #1 spot for the Warriors to add to his #1 for the 76ers, but I'll be voting for Curry there with zero hesitation.

[Doctor MJ]

Flash might be the greatest nickname ever too.

Since the we've had The Big Penguin and The Time Lord.

The newer generation shall always surpass the old.

Big Penguin is fun, but to me it's a problem when it's applied to a man who understands the game about as well as I'd expect a penguin to.

I'm a bit confused by Time Lord. Doctor Who reference obvs, but what's the significance to the player?

I still think Magic is the best nickname ever, and it sets a clear level to meet. 1) Did it become better known that the guy's actual name? 2) Does it suit him in a way that speaks to what is special about the player.

[Colbinii]

Flash might be the greatest nickname ever too.

Since the we've had The Big Penguin and The Time Lord.

The newer generation shall always surpass the old.

Big Penguin is fun, but to me it's a problem when it's applied to a man who understands the game about as well as I'd expect a penguin to.

I'm a bit confused by Time Lord. Doctor Who reference obvs, but what's the significance to the player?

I still think Magic is the best nickname ever, and it sets a clear level to meet. 1) Did it become better known that the guy's actual name? 2) Does it suit him in a way that speaks to what is special about the player.

Time Lord because his time keeping was terrible.

Well, in reality it is a big sign of immaturity to have poor time management but the City of Boston likes to look at things from a...well...they like to ignore some truths about their own.

[Dr Positivity]

Robert Williams overslept his introductory conference the day after he got drafted IIRC

[HeartBreakKid]

I think having both of 2020 Butler and Adebayo in the top 5 is a bit too generous because 2020 Heat were considerably deeper than the previous iterations those had Mourning&Hardaway and Wade&O'Neal as core.
2005 Heat were one of the frontrunners for the best team title in a very competitive season with Spurs, Suns, Pistons, Mavs. Wade's improvement from the previous season and Shaq made them so. The amount of extra wins Shaq brought were so obvious in that season.
Shaq had some problems in the playoffs but I just don't see 2005 Heat being that competitive with 2020 Adebayo instead of 2005 Shaq.

I mean yeah because Wade hit his prime. A lot of the credit was attributed to Shaq because Wade wasn't a name yet. Shaq really wasn't that good in 2005, the media just didn't know how good Wade was yet. Shaq joins and the story is that he made the Heat great - this type of stuff happens basically every season before people catch on. Not saying Shaq didn't make an impact, but the MVP narrative was mainly based on him joining the Heat and the Heat becoming contenders, it wasn't really a particularly strong MVP season.

There were other good players on the Heat. It's not like Tyler Herro would destroy everyone on there outside of Wade/Shaq. They had decent players for a two man punch team.

Butler and Adebayo are way better than everyone else on the 2020 Heat.

[HeartBreakKid]

I think having both of 2020 Butler and Adebayo in the top 5 is a bit too generous because 2020 Heat were considerably deeper than the previous iterations those had Mourning&Hardaway and Wade&O'Neal as core.
2005 Heat were one of the frontrunners for the best team title in a very competitive season with Spurs, Suns, Pistons, Mavs. Wade's improvement from the previous season and Shaq made them so. The amount of extra wins Shaq brought were so obvious in that season.
Shaq had some problems in the playoffs but I just don't see 2005 Heat being that competitive with 2020 Adebayo instead of 2005 Shaq.

I agree--having both seems to be some sort of recency bias.

Did people forget Bam was injured for the Finals?

If we have recency bias why would we forget Bam was injured?!

Also, Shaq didn't even make it to the finals and was injured himself.

The Heat haven't had many superstars, I don't think it's crazy to have Butler on there. He's a perennial top ten player. We could just as easily tear down Tim Hardaway.

[Odinn21]

I mean yeah because Wade hit his prime. A lot of the credit was attributed to Shaq because Wade wasn't a name yet. Shaq really wasn't that good in 2005, the media just didn't know how good Wade was yet. Shaq joins and the story is that he made the Heat great - this type of stuff happens basically every season before people catch on. Not saying Shaq didn't make an impact, but the MVP narrative was mainly based on him joining the Heat and the Heat becoming contenders, it wasn't really a particularly strong MVP season.

There were other good players on the Heat. It's not like Tyler Herro would destroy everyone on there outside of Wade/Shaq. They had decent players for a two man punch team.

Butler and Adebayo are way better than everyone else on the 2020 Heat.

I never said "Shaq should be in there because he was in the MVP race". You're arguing against something I did not say. Shaq ended up as the runner-up because reigning MVP's team was in no situation to compete for a top seed, Duncan was injured near to end of the season. Shaq spent most of the season at #4 and #5 on MVP ladder until Duncan's injury.
Shaq was in the top 1% in overall RAPM numbers. For comparison, Wade was barely in the top 15%. Wade was behind of Eddie Jones in regular season impact numbers. Not just Shaq. You're interpolating stuff that was not there. Wade was not regarded highly because he was yet to do an impact to earn a name. I was around at the time and Wade became a name and the MVP of the team in the playoffs.
All of the things there is; impact metrics, box metrics, eye test, etc, have Shaq quite high. He was actually better than himself in the previous season. At least for regular season.

Main rotations;
2005 Heat; Shaq, Haslem, EJ, Wade, Damon Jones - Rasual Butler, Shandon Anderson, Christian Laettner, Alonzo Mourning, Keyon Dooling, Michael Doleac
Keyon Dooling was the 6th player in total playtime in the playoffs...
2020 Heat; Adebayo, M. Leonard, Butler, Duncan Robinson, Nunn - Dragic, Herro, Olynyk, Crowder, D. Jones

All 2005 Heat had Shaq, Wade, EJ and Haslem. That's not deep. Just look at the rest beyond top 3 or 4 players and realize the massive gap between depths. Please.

[Colbinii]

I think having both of 2020 Butler and Adebayo in the top 5 is a bit too generous because 2020 Heat were considerably deeper than the previous iterations those had Mourning&Hardaway and Wade&O'Neal as core.
2005 Heat were one of the frontrunners for the best team title in a very competitive season with Spurs, Suns, Pistons, Mavs. Wade's improvement from the previous season and Shaq made them so. The amount of extra wins Shaq brought were so obvious in that season.
Shaq had some problems in the playoffs but I just don't see 2005 Heat being that competitive with 2020 Adebayo instead of 2005 Shaq.

I agree--having both seems to be some sort of recency bias.

Did people forget Bam was injured for the Finals?

If we have recency bias why would we forget Bam was injured?!

Also, Shaq didn't even make it to the finals and was injured himself.

The Heat haven't had many superstars, I don't think it's crazy to have Butler on there. He's a perennial top ten player. We could just as easily tear down Tim Hardaway.

Here are some points against Shaq.

1) It wasn't just the addition of Shaq which resulted in the 2005 Heat winning 59 games.

The Heat team from 2004 and 2005 was very different. The 2004 Heat top 8 in Minutes were Lamar Odom (3003), Eddie Jones (2998), Rafer Alston (2581), Brian Grant (2303), Dwyane Wade (2126), Caron Butler (2030), Udonis Haslem (1795) and Rasual Butler (675). The 2005 Heat top 8 in minutes were Dwyane Wade (2974), Eddie Jones (2839), Udonis Haslem (2675), Damon Jones (2576), Shaquille O'Neal (2492), Rasual Butler (1203), Keyon Dooling (1184) and Michael Doleac (1175).

I think it is important to note in these teams that Dwyane Wade took a major step forward (25.0 USG%, 4.6 WS, 1.4 BPM to 30.9 USG%, 11 WS, 4.6 BPM) as did Udonis Haslem (52.1 TS%, -2.0 BPM to 58.8 TS%, 0.4 BPM) and the career year of Damon Jones (146.2 TS ADD, 42% from corner 3) helped immensely from 2004 to 2005. Yes, Shaquille O'Neal was a big part of this, but it is clear the team made notable improvements from Wade taking on a major offensive role (which he was not ready for as a rookie) and the same can be said for Udonis Haslem going from a rookie to a sophomore. Brian Grant went to 16 MPG role player in 2005 and was out the league by 2007 while Rafer Alston was a stop-gap point guard--completing middling career as a decent role player.

2. The Heat were significantly better in the post-season with Wade in comparison to Shaq. In 2005 and 2006, a 1530 Minute Sample of Wade, the Heat were +7.3 with Wade on the court and +19.2 On/Off. Shaq, over this same period, in a 1190 Minute Sample, was +2.9 while on the court and -5.0 On/Off. Shaq and Wade were +9.1 while on the court together in 2005 in 319 minutes and +6.0 in 670 minutes in 2006. The minute totals equate to Shaq playing 989 of his 1190 minutes (83%) of his minutes with Wade but Wade only playing 64% of his minutes with Shaq.

Context needs to be applied to these numbers, notably in 2006 the Heat had a superstar level impact backup center in 2006 Zo who really did his best 2001-2003 David Robinson impersonation.

[Bklynborn682]

I agree--having both seems to be some sort of recency bias.

Did people forget Bam was injured for the Finals?

If we have recency bias why would we forget Bam was injured?!

Also, Shaq didn't even make it to the finals and was injured himself.

The Heat haven't had many superstars, I don't think it's crazy to have Butler on there. He's a perennial top ten player. We could just as easily tear down Tim Hardaway.

Here are some points against Shaq.

1) It wasn't just the addition of Shaq which resulted in the 2005 Heat winning 59 games.

The Heat team from 2004 and 2005 was very different. The 2004 Heat top 8 in Minutes were Lamar Odom (3003), Eddie Jones (2998), Rafer Alston (2581), Brian Grant (2303), Dwyane Wade (2126), Caron Butler (2030), Udonis Haslem (1795) and Rasual Butler (675). The 2005 Heat top 8 in minutes were Dwyane Wade (2974), Eddie Jones (2839), Udonis Haslem (2675), Damon Jones (2576), Shaquille O'Neal (2492), Rasual Butler (1203), Keyon Dooling (1184) and Michael Doleac (1175).

I think it is important to note in these teams that Dwyane Wade took a major step forward (25.0 USG%, 4.6 WS, 1.4 BPM to 30.9 USG%, 11 WS, 4.6 BPM) as did Udonis Haslem (52.1 TS%, -2.0 BPM to 58.8 TS%, 0.4 BPM) and the career year of Damon Jones (146.2 TS ADD, 42% from corner 3) helped immensely from 2004 to 2005. Yes, Shaquille O'Neal was a big part of this, but it is clear the team made notable improvements from Wade taking on a major offensive role (which he was not ready for as a rookie) and the same can be said for Udonis Haslem going from a rookie to a sophomore. Brian Grant went to 16 MPG role player in 2005 and was out the league by 2007 while Rafer Alston was a stop-gap point guard--completing middling career as a decent role player.

2. The Heat were significantly better in the post-season with Wade in comparison to Shaq. In 2005 and 2006, a 1530 Minute Sample of Wade, the Heat were +7.3 with Wade on the court and +19.2 On/Off. Shaq, over this same period, in a 1190 Minute Sample, was +2.9 while on the court and -5.0 On/Off. Shaq and Wade were +9.1 while on the court together in 2005 in 319 minutes and +6.0 in 670 minutes in 2006. The minute totals equate to Shaq playing 989 of his 1190 minutes (83%) of his minutes with Wade but Wade only playing 64% of his minutes with Shaq.

Context needs to be applied to these numbers, notably in 2006 the Heat had a superstar level impact backup center in 2006 Zo who really did his best 2001-2003 David Robinson impersonation.

I’ve always felt that shaqs +/- numbers post 04 truly don’t appreciate his impact because he often put the opposing team in foul trouble then he would pick up fouls that weren’t called against him in Orlando or LA and while he was on the bench his team still benefitted from the fact that they were already in the bonus thanks in large part to shaq (obviously Wade as well) but unlike in LA or Orlando his on/off numbers don’t look so Robust due to the fact that the team was benefiting from his fouls drawn far more than he was. And obviously this is somewhat irrelevant but I’ve yet to see anyone point it out, the biggest reason for Shaq’s regression in the 05 playoffs was the 2nd to last game of the season suffering a severe thigh contusion that would force shaq to miss the only playoff games in his career (not including his time in Boston lol) and both Van Gundy as well as the training staff saying that shaq was at best 75% and wouldn’t even be playing if it wasn’t the playoffs.

[HeartBreakKid]

If we have recency bias why would we forget Bam was injured?!

Also, Shaq didn't even make it to the finals and was injured himself.

The Heat haven't had many superstars, I don't think it's crazy to have Butler on there. He's a perennial top ten player. We could just as easily tear down Tim Hardaway.

Here are some points against Shaq.

1) It wasn't just the addition of Shaq which resulted in the 2005 Heat winning 59 games.

The Heat team from 2004 and 2005 was very different. The 2004 Heat top 8 in Minutes were Lamar Odom (3003), Eddie Jones (2998), Rafer Alston (2581), Brian Grant (2303), Dwyane Wade (2126), Caron Butler (2030), Udonis Haslem (1795) and Rasual Butler (675). The 2005 Heat top 8 in minutes were Dwyane Wade (2974), Eddie Jones (2839), Udonis Haslem (2675), Damon Jones (2576), Shaquille O'Neal (2492), Rasual Butler (1203), Keyon Dooling (1184) and Michael Doleac (1175).

I think it is important to note in these teams that Dwyane Wade took a major step forward (25.0 USG%, 4.6 WS, 1.4 BPM to 30.9 USG%, 11 WS, 4.6 BPM) as did Udonis Haslem (52.1 TS%, -2.0 BPM to 58.8 TS%, 0.4 BPM) and the career year of Damon Jones (146.2 TS ADD, 42% from corner 3) helped immensely from 2004 to 2005. Yes, Shaquille O'Neal was a big part of this, but it is clear the team made notable improvements from Wade taking on a major offensive role (which he was not ready for as a rookie) and the same can be said for Udonis Haslem going from a rookie to a sophomore. Brian Grant went to 16 MPG role player in 2005 and was out the league by 2007 while Rafer Alston was a stop-gap point guard--completing middling career as a decent role player.

2. The Heat were significantly better in the post-season with Wade in comparison to Shaq. In 2005 and 2006, a 1530 Minute Sample of Wade, the Heat were +7.3 with Wade on the court and +19.2 On/Off. Shaq, over this same period, in a 1190 Minute Sample, was +2.9 while on the court and -5.0 On/Off. Shaq and Wade were +9.1 while on the court together in 2005 in 319 minutes and +6.0 in 670 minutes in 2006. The minute totals equate to Shaq playing 989 of his 1190 minutes (83%) of his minutes with Wade but Wade only playing 64% of his minutes with Shaq.

Context needs to be applied to these numbers, notably in 2006 the Heat had a superstar level impact backup center in 2006 Zo who really did his best 2001-2003 David Robinson impersonation.

I’ve always felt that shaqs +/- numbers post 04 truly don’t appreciate his impact because he often put the opposing team in foul trouble then he would pick up fouls that weren’t called against him in Orlando or LA and while he was on the bench his team still benefitted from the fact that they were already in the bonus thanks in large part to shaq (obviously Wade as well) but unlike in LA or Orlando his on/off numbers don’t look so Robust due to the fact that the team was benefiting from his fouls drawn far more than he was. And obviously this is somewhat irrelevant but I’ve yet to see anyone point it out, the biggest reason for Shaq’s regression in the 05 playoffs was the 2nd to last game of the season suffering a severe thigh contusion that would force shaq to miss the only playoff games in his career (not including his time in Boston lol) and both Van Gundy as well as the training staff saying that shaq was at best 75% and wouldn’t even be playing if it wasn’t the playoffs.

I pointed out he was injured!

[Bklynborn682]

Here are some points against Shaq.

1) It wasn't just the addition of Shaq which resulted in the 2005 Heat winning 59 games.

The Heat team from 2004 and 2005 was very different. The 2004 Heat top 8 in Minutes were Lamar Odom (3003), Eddie Jones (2998), Rafer Alston (2581), Brian Grant (2303), Dwyane Wade (2126), Caron Butler (2030), Udonis Haslem (1795) and Rasual Butler (675). The 2005 Heat top 8 in minutes were Dwyane Wade (2974), Eddie Jones (2839), Udonis Haslem (2675), Damon Jones (2576), Shaquille O'Neal (2492), Rasual Butler (1203), Keyon Dooling (1184) and Michael Doleac (1175).

I think it is important to note in these teams that Dwyane Wade took a major step forward (25.0 USG%, 4.6 WS, 1.4 BPM to 30.9 USG%, 11 WS, 4.6 BPM) as did Udonis Haslem (52.1 TS%, -2.0 BPM to 58.8 TS%, 0.4 BPM) and the career year of Damon Jones (146.2 TS ADD, 42% from corner 3) helped immensely from 2004 to 2005. Yes, Shaquille O'Neal was a big part of this, but it is clear the team made notable improvements from Wade taking on a major offensive role (which he was not ready for as a rookie) and the same can be said for Udonis Haslem going from a rookie to a sophomore. Brian Grant went to 16 MPG role player in 2005 and was out the league by 2007 while Rafer Alston was a stop-gap point guard--completing middling career as a decent role player.

2. The Heat were significantly better in the post-season with Wade in comparison to Shaq. In 2005 and 2006, a 1530 Minute Sample of Wade, the Heat were +7.3 with Wade on the court and +19.2 On/Off. Shaq, over this same period, in a 1190 Minute Sample, was +2.9 while on the court and -5.0 On/Off. Shaq and Wade were +9.1 while on the court together in 2005 in 319 minutes and +6.0 in 670 minutes in 2006. The minute totals equate to Shaq playing 989 of his 1190 minutes (83%) of his minutes with Wade but Wade only playing 64% of his minutes with Shaq.

Context needs to be applied to these numbers, notably in 2006 the Heat had a superstar level impact backup center in 2006 Zo who really did his best 2001-2003 David Robinson impersonation.

I’ve always felt that shaqs +/- numbers post 04 truly don’t appreciate his impact because he often put the opposing team in foul trouble then he would pick up fouls that weren’t called against him in Orlando or LA and while he was on the bench his team still benefitted from the fact that they were already in the bonus thanks in large part to shaq (obviously Wade as well) but unlike in LA or Orlando his on/off numbers don’t look so Robust due to the fact that the team was benefiting from his fouls drawn far more than he was. And obviously this is somewhat irrelevant but I’ve yet to see anyone point it out, the biggest reason for Shaq’s regression in the 05 playoffs was the 2nd to last game of the season suffering a severe thigh contusion that would force shaq to miss the only playoff games in his career (not including his time in Boston lol) and both Van Gundy as well as the training staff saying that shaq was at best 75% and wouldn’t even be playing if it wasn’t the playoffs.

I pointed out he was injured!

You are right you did mention it. I didn’t see that. But I also think it’s important to note that shaq was injured for the entirety of the playoffs which is why there is such a significant drop off. Bam wasn’t injured throughout. Though I may be unaware of a earlier injury for him.

[70sFan]

1. 2011/12 LeBron James - I picked 2012 version over 2013 because of better postseason run. HM to 2014, one of his best offensive seasons.

2. 2008/09 Dwyane Wade - clear choice, Wade peaked during that period and I can't blame him for short playoffs run - his team was terrible.

3. 1999/00 Alonzo Mourning - very strong all-around season, monster defender and very strong finisher. His offensive game lacked polish and he was undersized, but it's an easy choice for me anyway.

4. 2019/20 Jimmy Butler - solid, but not great RS backed up by outstanding postseason run. Very good all-around player who didn't have any notable weaknesses. His finals performance cannot be overstated.

5. 2004/05 Shaquille O'Neal - I'll give Shaq the benefit of doubt, he was surprisingly consistent defensively throughout the season and although his injury in postseason didn't help, I don't think we have better candidate for the last spot. He was clearly better in RS than 2020 Bam and Adebayo also got injured in playoffs.

[Odinn21]

The Heat results;

Code: Select all

1. 10- 0-0-0-0 / 100 points / 1.000 share / '13 LeBron James
2.  0-10-0-0-0 /  70 points / 0.700 share / '09 Dwyane Wade
3.  0- 0-8-2-0 /  46 points / 0.460 share / '00 Alonzo Mourning
4.  0- 0-1-4-4 /  21 points / 0.210 share / '20 Jimmy Butler
5.  0- 0-0-2-4 /  10 points / 0.100 share / '05 Shaquille O'Neal

6.  0- 0-1-1-1 /   9 points / 0.090 share / '98 Tim Hardaway
7.  0- 0-0-1-1 /   4 points / 0.040 share / '20 Bam Adebayo

Results on Google Sheet

[durantbird]

LeBron with two franchise peaks. Anyone else? Kareem? (Bucks and 1977 Kareem?) CP3 with New Orleans and Clippers?

Definitely expecting to put CP3 in my #1 slot for NO, so him, though I didn't put him in the number one spot for the Clips.

Don't think Kareem will get the #1 spot for the Lakers.

Wilt may get the #1 spot for the Warriors to add to his #1 for the 76ers, but I'll be voting for Curry there with zero hesitation.

If Shaq gets the first spot for Lakers, he'd expected to also be it for Magic.

[homecourtloss]

LeBron with two franchise peaks. Anyone else? Kareem? (Bucks and 1977 Kareem?) CP3 with New Orleans and Clippers?

Definitely expecting to put CP3 in my #1 slot for NO, so him, though I didn't put him in the number one spot for the Clips.

Don't think Kareem will get the #1 spot for the Lakers.

Wilt may get the #1 spot for the Warriors to add to his #1 for the 76ers, but I'll be voting for Curry there with zero hesitation.

If Shaq gets the first spot for Lakers, he'd expected to also be it for Magic.

Shaq, 2000 and Kareem 1977 will be a great battle. TMac 2003 and Shaq 1995 will also be one, but I think TMac wins that.

[HeartBreakKid]

LeBron with two franchise peaks. Anyone else? Kareem? (Bucks and 1977 Kareem?) CP3 with New Orleans and Clippers?

If we do a "defunct" franchise then Dr.J has a chance.

[Doctor MJ]

LeBron with two franchise peaks. Anyone else? Kareem? (Bucks and 1977 Kareem?) CP3 with New Orleans and Clippers?

If we do a "defunct" franchise then Dr.J has a chance.

True, Erving's the GOAT Net and GOAT Squire.

[Doctor MJ]

Definitely expecting to put CP3 in my #1 slot for NO, so him, though I didn't put him in the number one spot for the Clips.

Don't think Kareem will get the #1 spot for the Lakers.

Wilt may get the #1 spot for the Warriors to add to his #1 for the 76ers, but I'll be voting for Curry there with zero hesitation.

If Shaq gets the first spot for Lakers, he'd expected to also be it for Magic.

Shaq, 2000 and Kareem 1977 will be a great battle. TMac 2003 and Shaq 1995 will also be one, but I think TMac wins that.

Not much of a debate for me, but to each their own.