Official Trade Thread -- Part XL

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Anyone wanna kick the tires on Cam Reddish this offseason? I killed him during the draft process and he's been just as bad as I thought he might be but he does have all the tools to be high end 3&D guy and is still very young. I don't think he'd cost too much to aquire and could be a good reclamation project for Russ & Brad on the cheap.

If I could get Reddish on the cheap I’d be all over it. He was getting some quality playing time early in the season where you could see flashes of his potential…but has been inactive with an Achilles issue since late February.

ATL might consider Cam expendable given that he seems stuck behind guys like Bogdan, Hunter, Danilo, Huerter. But I’m guessing the Hawks would want at least a promising young player who fills a need or a late first round pick for Reddish given that he was the 10th pick in the draft just two years ago and is only 21.

Augh, no! Dat, trust your instincts and pre-draft analysis. Or post draft analysis. Cam is exactly what we thought he would be - a guy who looks the part but can't actually play.

Zards, he's stuck behind other players because he's not as good as them. He wasn't very good in college, and he's even worse in the NBA. Some key things to consider:
- He's a "shooter" who can't shoot. He only managed 33% from range in his rookie here. He's down to a sizzling 26% in his sophomore, on nearly 5 attempts a game. This is not a fluke.
- He makes the team offense worse. His TO:A ratio sucks. He doesn't provide spacing. He doesn't draw many fouls.
- He's a young player, but not as young as people think. He's actually a full year or more older than most other freshmen from his draft class. That's not a huge thing by itself, but when you combine it with how ineffective he is as a player...

Aside from "youth" and the elusive promise of potential, there is just nothing about Cam Reddish to indicate he can be a starting player on a dangerous team. If he was a 2-4m/year contract that cost nothing to acquire? Sure. But sending out assets to get him? Don't do it!

I'm with Illuminaire on this.

[gambitx777]

So if the market in oladipo is ice cold with Brad playing more three and all if they best offer he's given is full mid level from us ? Is he worth the commitment at this point.

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[Ruzious]

Memphis phans on the trade board are saying that there's some concern there about JJJ being fragile and not having star potential. I'm a big believer in his potential and recall Anthony Davis having similar issues - not saying JJJ is the next AD - but I think he can develop into the next best PF/C in the NBA and would be a tremendous complement to the Gafford/Bryant combo we have - if... they'd all stay healthy. JJJ will be an RFA after next season. Anyway, so I figured we should make an offer if Memphis is up for trading him.

JJJ, Melton, Winslow (filler), and Bane for Beal and Hachimura. Beal gives Memphis that 2nd star they're presumably looking for to take the next step - a perfect fit for Ja. We get a real up and comer in Melton to start at the 2 plus a great shooter in swingman Bane. Rui gets reunited with Clarke, and we take advantage of the fact that Rui is higher valued than his production warrants. Memphis moves Brooks to the 3 or swingman. Personally, i don't think Memphis would agree to include Melton, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[pcbothwel]

So if the market in oladipo is ice cold with Brad playing more three and all if they best offer he's given is full mid level from us ? Is he worth the commitment at this point.

No... Dipo is going to resign with the Heat for a prove it deal. Riley has that in the bag.

Say it with me. Otto Porter.
- He needs a 1-2 year deal to prove his health
- He needs to start and play with high caliber creators
- He needs comfort and familiarity

We can provide all 3. He starts nest to Rui is the perfect sharp shooting, high IQ, high rebounding, team defender that this team needs.

Ruz... I LOVED JJJ in 2018 and had him 2/3 along with Ayton just behind Doncic... But no.
Thomas Bryant and Gafford will be the perfect recipe (And salary) for the big man spot next year.

Sure, I would trade 15, Rui, and Hutch for him and the chance to strike gold on a KP/Myles Turner hybrid... but I think they can get more and I wouldnt budge.

The fact that we can go to the playoffs and play meaningful basketball while also getting a chance to draft Springer/Butler/Giddey should make everyone ecstatic.

For god sakes guys.. could you imagine a coach like Thibs with this group plus Butler (And Otto )
We'd be a 3rd seed and laughing off the idea of trading Beal.

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The Otto of 2016 - 2018 on this team would be transformative. But, is there enough reason to believe that his body will hold up that we pay the opportunity cost to bring him on? I guess it will depend on how little he costs.

As to JJJ, he was not a good player as a rookie, & he followed that up by getting a little worse his second year. Now he's coming off a knee injury. Not only would I not give Brad for him, I see no reason to want him at all. Certainly not in return for major assets.

As to Melton, I've liked him since the run-up to the '18 draft, where he was taken right after we nabbed Justa Sayno. Memphis signed him to a multi-year contract. He isn't going anywhere.

The Grizzlies have the best FO in the league. & the youngest. Just look at how they managed the 2020 draft! Zach Kleiman is the GM. They would be happy to get rid of JJJ, I'm sure, but not Melton. Likely not Bane either. & I doubt they would have much interest in Rui -- tho I'm sure they'd love to get Beal.

[mhd]

Would the Bulls be potentially interested in trading Sato back here? Sato would be perfect here as a backup who can play alongside Russ and handle 1-3. Our cap filler would be Bryant (and they don't need a center). It would have to be a 3-team deal, but Sato on this team would be a boon to the bench.

[9 and 20]

Would the Bulls be potentially interested in trading Sato back here? Sato would be perfect here as a backup who can play alongside Russ and handle 1-3. Our cap filler would be Bryant (and they don't need a center). It would have to be a 3-team deal, but Sato on this team would be a boon to the bench.

I don't think Sato would want to come back here, but you never know. Definitely wouldn't if Brooks is still here.

I also don't think I'd trade Beal for JJJ. He might have AD potential, but I think I'd want either more certainty or more shots at potential, like multiple high picks.

Also, with the last two games against the Hawks - Collins is a pretty good player, but I don't think he's good enough to warrant both a trade for him and paying him a max contract.

On Otto Porter - the costco champagne thing was almost as ridiculous as Kwame and his cake throwing incident.

[Ruzious]

The Otto of 2016 - 2018 on this team would be transformative. But, is there enough reason to believe that his body will hold up that we pay the opportunity cost to bring him on? I guess it will depend on how little he costs.

As to JJJ, he was not a good player as a rookie, & he followed that up by getting a little worse his second year. Now he's coming off a knee injury. Not only would I not give Brad for him, I see no reason to want him at all. Certainly not in return for major assets.

As to Melton, I've liked him since the run-up to the '18 draft, where he was taken right after we nabbed Justa Sayno. Memphis signed him to a multi-year contract. He isn't going anywhere.

The Grizzlies have the best FO in the league. & the youngest. Just look at how they managed the 2020 draft! Zach Kleiman is the GM. They would be happy to get rid of JJJ, I'm sure, but not Melton. Likely not Bane either. & I doubt they would have much interest in Rui -- tho I'm sure they'd love to get Beal.

Justa Sayno instead of Issuf Sanon... I guess that was intended to be funny?

I'd say that anyone who doesn't want JJJ would make an awful GM. Anyone who doesn't want JJJ would make an awful GM. Saying they'd be happy to get rid of JJJ is absurd at best.

This reminds me of our discussions of Zach LaVine and Brandon Ingram in past years - when they were at similar stages of their careers. I suggested trades that included both of them, and you said you wouldn't even want them on your team - same thing as here. I expect you'll be even more wrong on JJJ than you were on them.

Btw, nobody's arguing against Memphis' front office. It's clear Zach Kleiman's done a great job.

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I'd say that anyone who doesn't want JJJ would make an awful GM. Anyone who doesn't want JJJ would make an awful GM. Saying they'd be happy to get rid of JJJ is absurd at best....

You might be altogether right. I might be altogether wrong. I've been wrong before -- as have we all. But, you're not denying the 3 simple facts I cited, are you?

1. JJJ wasn't good as a rookie. You're not differing with that, are you?
2. JJJ wasn't good his second year. You aren't saying that he was good his second year, are you?
3. JJJ is coming off a knee injury. Obviously, that's true.

Those 3 facts are why "I see no reason to want him at all" -- although that's an enormous over-statement on my part. I should have said that I didn't see a reason to make him a target. Obviously, if we got JJJ for a minimal outlay, I'd be delighted to get him.

In fact, however, the heart of my objection was to your proposal to trade Bradley Beal for him -- Brad plus a bunch more, though I'll have to go check what that was exactly.

Now, in fairness, your trade also garnered DeAnthony Melton & Desmond Bane, two guys we both like -- you were particularly high on Bane in discussions prior to the 2020 draft. That makes a difference.

But, I'd still call JJJ way too big a risk to be a target in a trade costing Bradley Beal. I see him as a major roll of the dice. He has tremendous upside -- ala AD, I think you wrote. But, here's the thing: Anthony Davis was tremendous his first year. & he was tremendous his second year too.

...This reminds me of our discussions of Zach LaVine and Brandon Ingram in past years - when they were at similar stages of their careers. I suggested trades that included both of them, and you said you wouldn't even want them on your team - same thing as here....

I don't remember the Ingram discussion. But, you are correct that I didn't want to trade Bradley Beal for Zach Lavine: that was your proposal at the time.

Did I really write that I wouldn't want LaVine on my team? If so, that makes no sense. Even back then, he would have been a perfectly good addition to the team, any team, if acquired at the right price. I didn't think Brad was the right price.

But, where you turned out to be totally correct, & I was wrong, was in predicting that Zach Lavine would break out & become outstanding. & this year he has certainly done that.

So, if Zach LaVine's 2020-21 season is the measure, then it makes me wrong -- it would make perfect sense to trade Bradley Beal straight up for Zach Lavine.

If it's the sole metric, that is. Because, before this year, Zach LaVine had never had an overall above average season (though he did score a lot of points).

I assume you would trade Brad straight up for JJJ. Would you also trade Zach Lavine straight up for JJJ -- i.e. if you were the Bulls' GM?

[Ruzious]

Pif, JJJ is 21 years old. He's a tremendously talented player. To look past that is silly.

To answer your questions:
"1. JJJ wasn't good as a rookie. You're not differing with that, are you?" He was good as a 19 year old rookie - better than Kevin Garnett was. Per 36 minutes, he averaged 19 points, 6.5 rebounds, 1.9 blocks, 1.2 steals, with a TS% of 59.1 - while playing mainly PF. That is good. It's not great, but he was 19 years old the entire season. Feel free to compare KG's stats at the same age.

"2. JJJ wasn't good his second year. You aren't saying that he was good his second year, are you?" He was good - again not great and fell off in some stats, but he was still at least arguably... better than KG at the same age. Per 36, he averaged 22 points with a TS% of 59.3. His rebounding wasn't where I'd like it, but he was still developing physically at... 20 YEARS OLD.

"Those 3 facts are why "I see no reason to want him at all" -- although that's an enormous over-statement on my part. I should have said that I didn't see a reason to make him a target. Obviously, if we got JJJ for a minimal outlay, I'd be delighted to get him."

I appreciate you acknowledging the over-statement, but I don't get why you said it in the first place. With both LaVine and Ingram, you said the exact same thing - that you didn't want them at all - not just that you didn't like the trade. And that's why I feel good about not letting that slide - the 3rd time was the charm. It was time to blast you.

And you know this - Any competent GM - when making a trade - has to project what the players are going to do. They can't just look at their total stats from the last season and assume they're going to have the same stats every year. A talented skinny 19/20 year old with the frame to get bigger will likely get bigger, stronger, smarter, better. As far as JJJ's injury, it happens. Beal was injury prone throughout his 1st 4 season, and he's been very durable since then. Maybe he'll be as injury-prone as Anthony Davis, and maybe he'll be very durable. We shall see.

[Dat2U]

JJJ for Beal? No. And while I like some of their young role players. No.

I was one of JJJ's biggest supporters during his draft but No. He's not proven to me that he's a transformative big just possibly a very good one. I don't think he's lived up to his potential and he's in a great situation.

[Ruzious]

JJJ for Beal? No. And while I like some of their young role players. No.

I was one of JJJ's biggest supporters during his draft but No. He's not proven to me that he's a transformative big just possibly a very good one. I don't think he's lived up to his potential and he's in a great situation.

Correct me if I'm right, but didn't you said the opposite of that about a year ago when I suggested a Beal/JJJ trade - saying there's no way Memphis will trade JJJ? The only thing that's changed since then about him is he got injured. Granted, Beal has improved.

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Pif, JJJ is 21 years old. He's a tremendously talented player. To look past that is silly.

To answer your questions:
"1. JJJ wasn't good as a rookie. You're not differing with that, are you?" He was good as a 19 year old rookie - better than Kevin Garnett was. Per 36 minutes, he averaged 19 points, 6.5 rebounds, 1.9 blocks, 1.2 steals, with a TS% of 59.1 - while playing mainly PF. That is good. It's not great, but he was 19 years old the entire season. Feel free to compare KG's stats at the same age.

"2. JJJ wasn't good his second year. You aren't saying that he was good his second year, are you?" He was good - again not great and fell off in some stats, but he was still at least arguably... better than KG at the same age. Per 36, he averaged 22 points with a TS% of 59.3. His rebounding wasn't where I'd like it, but he was still developing physically at... 20 YEARS OLD.

"Those 3 facts are why "I see no reason to want him at all" -- although that's an enormous over-statement on my part. I should have said that I didn't see a reason to make him a target. Obviously, if we got JJJ for a minimal outlay, I'd be delighted to get him."

I appreciate you acknowledging the over-statement, but I don't get why you said it in the first place. With both LaVine and Ingram, you said the exact same thing - that you didn't want them at all - not just that you didn't like the trade. And that's why I feel good about not letting that slide - the 3rd time was the charm. It was time to blast you.

And you know this - Any competent GM - when making a trade - has to project what the players are going to do. They can't just look at their total stats from the last season and assume they're going to have the same stats every year. A talented skinny 19/20 year old with the frame to get bigger will likely get bigger, stronger, smarter, better. As far as JJJ's injury, it happens. Beal was injury prone throughout his 1st 4 season, and he's been very durable since then. Maybe he'll be as injury-prone as Anthony Davis, and maybe he'll be very durable. We shall see.

There's no doubt JJJ is extremely talented. The problems around trading for him have to do with estimating how much he'll realize of that potential. That involves risk. You're suggesting trading Beal for him. I can't go there.

Garnett was far better than JJJ both as a rookie & his 2d year. Jackson was a better scorer. Otherwise it isn't close. More important: it's irrelevant how good/bad Garnett was. It's not predictive of JJJ in any way.

My "overstatement" was 50% sloppy writing: "I see no reason to want him at all" should be "I see no reason at all to want him in particular" & should also include "...given what we're talking about trading to get him." More or less the same in the cases of LaVine & Ingram (I still wouldn't trade Beal for Ingram, btw).

No problem for you to call me on any overstatement -- or in any instance where the facts have proved me wrong. Bound to happen. & I didn't take you as "blast"ing me -- not at all. Anyway, you're a good-humored guy, & we have a solid understanding. All good.

Of course you have to project a player -- but, obviously, "potential" doesn't get the same value as "actual." JJJ may turn out to be a dominant NBA player, but of course that's not how to value him in a trade right now.

Btw, I would not be surprised to see Memphis move JJJ, especially for future-oriented assets (i.e. picks). Wexler/Kleiman didn't acquire him; Chris Wallace, the previous GM, picked him.

[Ruzious]

Pif, I'm not sure how you come up with KG being better than JJJ as rookies. It's not even close - statistically. JJJ produced considerably more and was far more efficient. The 2nd year, they were very close.

[prime1time]

Trading Beal for JJJ would be a disaster. Once JJJ’s extension comes up then what? If I’m trading Beal it’s for a top 4 pick in this draft and additional draft capital. JJJ doesn’t move the needle at all.

[gesa2]

So if the market in oladipo is ice cold with Brad playing more three and all if they best offer he's given is full mid level from us ? Is he worth the commitment at this point.

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No thank you. Brad’s a short 2, our defense has enough issues. And Oladipo has been jacking up inefficient shots since his last quad surgery trying to justify a payday. Not worth more than a make good contract IMO, but seemingly someone will disagree

[gambitx777]

I kind of agree with you.

So if the market in oladipo is ice cold with Brad playing more three and all if they best offer he's given is full mid level from us ? Is he worth the commitment at this point.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

No thank you. Brad’s a short 2, our defense has enough issues. And Oladipo has been jacking up inefficient shots since his last quad surgery trying to justify a payday. Not worth more than a make good contract IMO, but seemingly someone will disagree

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

[payitforward]

Pif, I'm not sure how you come up with KG being better than JJJ as rookies. It's not even close - statistically. JJJ produced considerably more and was far more efficient. The 2nd year, they were very close.

It's not all about scoring, right...?

Per 40 minutes: Garnett got more defensive boards, 60% more offensive boards, 50% more assists, while Jackson turned the ball over about 35% more frequently & Garnett had 12.5% more steals. Jackson also committed 75% more fouls than Garnett. As well, KG had slightly more blocks.

The difference in Garnett's favor was even greater his second year. & of course, over the years, Garnett went up & up & up. That's not a reason to think Jackson will do the same.

[queridiculo]

So if the market in oladipo is ice cold with Brad playing more three and all if they best offer he's given is full mid level from us ? Is he worth the commitment at this point.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

No thank you. Brad’s a short 2, our defense has enough issues. And Oladipo has been jacking up inefficient shots since his last quad surgery trying to justify a payday. Not worth more than a make good contract IMO, but seemingly someone will disagree

Oladipo had exactly one good season worth talking about as a pro, and there's not a chance in hell that Oladipo isn't going to fetch more than a MLE deal in free agency.

Tons of teams with crazy money this offseason.

[Ruzious]

Pif, I'm not sure how you come up with KG being better than JJJ as rookies. It's not even close - statistically. JJJ produced considerably more and was far more efficient. The 2nd year, they were very close.

It's not all about scoring, right...?

Per 40 minutes: Garnett got more defensive boards, 60% more offensive boards, 50% more assists, while Jackson turned the ball over about 35% more frequently & Garnett had 12.5% more steals. Jackson also committed 75% more fouls than Garnett. As well, KG had slightly more blocks.

The difference in Garnett's favor was even greater his second year. & of course, over the years, Garnett went up & up & up. That's not a reason to think Jackson will do the same.

It's not that hard. Just look at total production and efficiency - PER and TS%. In their rookie years - both at 19: KG had a PER of 15.8 and a TS% of .522. JJJ had 16.4 and .591. That's a huge difference, and you really can't get around it by picking and choosing individual stats just because they fit your pre-determined position.

In their second year, KG took over the lead in production, but JJJ still had a huge advantage in efficiency. KG had a PER of 18.2 and a TS% OF .537. JJJ had a PER of 16.3 and a TS% OF .593.

Why would you completely ignore scoring and scoring efficiency?