Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

Post #981 » by **luciano-davidwesley** » Wed May 12, 2021 3:01 am

We would have got an asset of some description trading Batum at the deadline or at the very least significant buyout relief ala Blake Griffin if we glued Batum's ass to the bench all season and threatened not to let him join a contender unless he agreed a healthy buyout. There was definitely significant opportunity cost involved in the Batum stretch as well as the 3 year hamstring of the stretch.

Roll Tide 09 · Post #982 » by **Roll Tide 09** » Wed May 12, 2021 5:55 am

Chapelchilla wrote:
Braggins wrote:
Chapelchilla wrote:He was playing to the level of his contract prior to the injury. Borderline All Star level.

I don't really agree with this. We essentially tied up nearly 40 million in cap for him (37.5/38.9/39.9/31.5) and thats more than what a borderline all-star is worth. You can't really separate the Batum stretch from his contract because that was part of the cost of signing him. It looks a little better once the Batum stretch comes off the books for his final year, but by that point he'll be 34 years old and still making over 30 million, while likely not being as productive as he currently is, even assuming good health.

Its a bit of a tricky situation to talk about, because he has absolutely played well. Its hard to nitpick a guy putting up 20/6/4 on good efficiency while playing winning basketball, but he also missed 40% of the season, which seems to be the norm for him, and he still is costing the team considerably more than his production is worth imo.

I also don't really agree with that cap gymnastics argument. He didn't cost us 40 mill this year in a vacuum. Batum was going to cost us 30 million or so regardless. In year 4 he costs what will likely be a fairly normal number with wage growth. It's only the next 2 years that he actually costs us a full 39/40. There re a lot of reasons why bringing a vet FA with some stature was way way more important then the $ last year. We have covered them plenty.
We have the flexibility to still add a center this year and our own young FAs can be resigned regardless, if they are worth the deal they want. On that note, I would jettison Monk, Devonte and the twins with no qualms. If they want to stay here on a team friendly deal, that's fine. None of them are special. Ball, Terry, Bridges, PJ we can still keep or trade for assets. If Jordan wants to build a winner while he has a shot he will need to dip into the piggy bank in 2 years for a year or two. I think he is getting older and starting to see that his window is getting shorter and he may well be willing to spend to win here while we have a real star.

I read those potential trade pieces correctly, with Ball and Bridges? Also, Rozier is on a great trajectory, I wouldn't trade him either...by the time he is 30, he MIGHT be one of the most clutch players in the NBA. All teams need that type of player.

Chapelchilla · Post #983 » by **Chapelchilla** » Wed May 12, 2021 4:51 pm

Roll Tide 09 wrote:
Chapelchilla wrote:
Braggins wrote:I don't really agree with this. We essentially tied up nearly 40 million in cap for him (37.5/38.9/39.9/31.5) and thats more than what a borderline all-star is worth. You can't really separate the Batum stretch from his contract because that was part of the cost of signing him. It looks a little better once the Batum stretch comes off the books for his final year, but by that point he'll be 34 years old and still making over 30 million, while likely not being as productive as he currently is, even assuming good health.

Its a bit of a tricky situation to talk about, because he has absolutely played well. Its hard to nitpick a guy putting up 20/6/4 on good efficiency while playing winning basketball, but he also missed 40% of the season, which seems to be the norm for him, and he still is costing the team considerably more than his production is worth imo.

I also don't really agree with that cap gymnastics argument. He didn't cost us 40 mill this year in a vacuum. Batum was going to cost us 30 million or so regardless. In year 4 he costs what will likely be a fairly normal number with wage growth. It's only the next 2 years that he actually costs us a full 39/40. There re a lot of reasons why bringing a vet FA with some stature was way way more important then the $ last year. We have covered them plenty.
We have the flexibility to still add a center this year and our own young FAs can be resigned regardless, if they are worth the deal they want. On that note, I would jettison Monk, Devonte and the twins with no qualms. If they want to stay here on a team friendly deal, that's fine. None of them are special. Ball, Terry, Bridges, PJ we can still keep or trade for assets. If Jordan wants to build a winner while he has a shot he will need to dip into the piggy bank in 2 years for a year or two. I think he is getting older and starting to see that his window is getting shorter and he may well be willing to spend to win here while we have a real star.

I read those potential trade pieces correctly, with Ball and Bridges? Also, Rozier is on a great trajectory, I wouldn't trade him either...by the time he is 30, he MIGHT be one of the most clutch players in the NBA. All teams need that type of player.

I think you are missing the WE CAN STILL KEEP part of that. If we draft an all star who plays one of their positions this year we could trade them later to save money and gain other assets. I would like to keep the core guys around.

Snidely FC · Post #984 » by **Snidely FC** » Wed May 19, 2021 12:34 pm

I’m no doctor but as a fan can’t help notice that Beal and Brogdon returned at less than 100% as will Lebron really could have used Hayward to steady us early in that embarrassing blowout the knock against Glass Hayward is you can’t rely on him cause of injuries yesterday added another disappointing chapter to that story

amcoolio · Post #985 » by **amcoolio** » Wed May 19, 2021 3:45 pm

Surprised nobody mentioned that SAS blasted Hayward on first take for “Charlotte thinking he is able to play but he decided to sit out”

CuseMayne · Post #986 » by **CuseMayne** » Wed May 19, 2021 3:50 pm

amcoolio wrote:Surprised nobody mentioned that SAS blasted Hayward on first take for “Charlotte thinking he is able to play but he decided to sit out”

Hmmm interesting. Well, he'd better be thankful that we didn't rush him back like he felt like he was in Boston for the bubble last year. And him being thankful better turn into him being reliable and productive in 2021-2022.

amcoolio · Post #987 » by **amcoolio** » Wed May 19, 2021 4:40 pm

https://youtu.be/xHF3Lv4Zpic?t=82

Liver_Pooty · Post #988 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Wed May 19, 2021 5:27 pm

amcoolio wrote:Surprised nobody mentioned that SAS blasted Hayward on first take for “Charlotte thinking he is able to play but he decided to sit out”

Probably because he's a dumbass

amcoolio · Post #989 » by **amcoolio** » Wed May 19, 2021 6:00 pm

I can see if it was a bone break. But a foot sprain? You can't come back in 6 weeks and play through a sprain?

Liver_Pooty · Post #990 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Wed May 19, 2021 7:11 pm

amcoolio wrote:I can see if it was a bone break. But a foot sprain? You can't come back in 6 weeks and play through a sprain?

His diagnosis was 6 to 8 weeks. Friday would've been 8 weeks. Would I have liked him to play yeah, but I'm not a doctor unfortunately. Just sucks.

SWedd523 · Post #991 » by **SWedd523** » Wed May 19, 2021 9:46 pm

In an alternate universe, he comes back and plays and we get fans lambasting the FO for rushing him back

Liver_Pooty · Post #992 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Thu May 20, 2021 12:11 am

SWedd523 wrote:In an alternate universe, he comes back and plays and we get fans lambasting the FO for rushing him back

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he rush back from injury with Boston last season in the bubble and actually hurt the team? I remember Boston fans wanting his head. He probably most definitely didn't want to go through that ordeal again

Post #993 » by **luciano-davidwesley** » Thu May 20, 2021 3:44 am

SWedd523 wrote:In an alternate universe, he comes back and plays and we get fans lambasting the FO for rushing him back

What kind of long term damage can be done with an ankle sprain? It's not like he's coming back from an ACL injury or an Achilles. Hayward's toughness should be questioned right now. Unless he wants to come out and clarify that it was something worse than an "ankle sprain" lol.

At best he is a slow healer. At worst he is soft. Neither are great attributes for a guy taking up a big chunk of our cap (plus stretch!).

SWedd523 · Post #994 » by **SWedd523** » Thu May 20, 2021 5:55 pm

luciano-davidwesley wrote:
SWedd523 wrote:In an alternate universe, he comes back and plays and we get fans lambasting the FO for rushing him back

What kind of long term damage can be done with an ankle sprain? It's not like he's coming back from an ACL injury or an Achilles. Hayward's toughness should be questioned right now. Unless he wants to come out and clarify that it was something worse than an "ankle sprain" lol.

At best he is a slow healer. At worst he is soft. Neither are great attributes for a guy taking up a big chunk of our cap (plus stretch!).

I'm not disagreeing with you lol

I was just remarking on how it's really a no-win situation. Many fans here have griped and groaned about how the med staff sucks and/or rushes dudes back before they're healthy and ready.

Which is fair I guess, though I personally doubt any player is getting back on the floor without having first been fully medically cleared and THEN personally deciding he wants to return. Go look at some of the comments in the Melo thread for the most recent example.

I would've liked to see him back. Hell, they're paying him so much money, he should feel obligated to get back on the floor. But if there's a real medical reason to not play, then I can't really argue against that other than to say it sucks because he could've helped mitigate some of that end-of-year collapse.

countryboi · Post #995 » by **countryboi** » Thu May 20, 2021 8:20 pm

After what happen to Isiah Thomas, I'm like take as much time as you need because these teams will toss you aside the minute its easy for them. Hayward needed to do what's best for Hayward.

Chapelchilla · Post #996 » by **Chapelchilla** » Thu May 20, 2021 9:36 pm

I have no problem whatsoever with Hayward not playing on a still healing foot in this situation. What would be the point? Risking an injury effecting next season to possibly win a play in game just to be cannon fodder as the 8th seed does not make any sense.

SWedd523 · Post #997 » by **SWedd523** » Thu May 20, 2021 9:45 pm

countryboi wrote:After what happen to Isiah Thomas, I'm like take as much time as you need because these teams will toss you aside the minute its easy for them. Hayward needed to do what's best for Hayward.

I mean, you ain't necessarily wrong. Especially in regards to the season. I would've been okay (and believe i even made a post saying as much) with Melo taking the rest of the season off regardless of his recovery. His long term health is WAY too important to the future of the franchise

Post #998 » by **luciano-davidwesley** » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:34 am

Anyone know if this guy has recovered from his sore pinky toe yet?

Rich4114 · Post #999 » by **Rich4114** » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:38 am

Yes, Hornets social media has been showing him working out in Charlotte with other players

JMAC3 · Post #1000 » by **JMAC3** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:49 pm

I get it sucks that Gordon got hurt this year, but we have to remember he is under contract for the next three years. He proved when healthy he is a borderline allstar this year, not sure why so many are ready to write him out of our plans.

Galinari is nearly 2 full years older than Gordon and he was a huge piece of them making a run to ECF. If we make a run in the playoffs next year I’m sure Gordon will be a big reason why.