Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2

[Knightro]

I'm really interested to get official measurements on Kuminga.

Is he really 6'8" 220 lbs with a 7'0" wingspan or is he's more like 6'6" with a 6'10" wingspan?

Kuminga is 8 months younger than Jalen Green, 13 months younger than Cade Cunningham and 16 months younger than Evan Mobley and Jalen Suggs.

I could absolutely see this front office being very intrigued by him. Would not shock me whatsoever if he was the apple of their eye.

[nicnac215]

Read on Twitter

Reminder on Kuminga, he reclassified so he’s about a year younger than any of the freshman in the draft

Best case we end up top 2 and select one of Green and Cade, then get the 8th pick via Chi and trade it with 2025 den 1st, 33rd pick, 2023 chi 1st for the 5th pick. That is very fair value and a team like OKC or Houston would love that value.

[Knightro]

Think about it this way.

If Kuminga had not reclassified and instead opted to go to college with his original draft class, he'd *still* be a younger freshman than Cunningham, Mobley, Suggs or Barnes were this year. That's how much younger he is than those guys.

He put up 16-7-3 as the youngest player in the G-League bubble. With his size and strength, what do you think he'd have done against weaker college competition with another year of experience under his belt?

It stands to reason that he'd have really dominated and likely positioned himself to go No. 1 overall in 2022.

He needs time. He needs patience. But thankfully those are two things the Magic clearly have at this point with no real pressure or expectation to be good anytime soon. The potential is certainly there for Kuminga to hit in a really big way.

[CZ Eddie]

Here's Alperen Şengün's first playoff game from 4 days ago on 5/14.

He had 22 PTS, 10 REB, 8 AST, 4 STL, 2 BLK on 7-12 FG, 8-11 FT

Watch on YouTube

He sure does fall down a lot.
I really liked that over-the-back pass he made the 17th time he fell down.
Wonder if he'll play some PF if he tones up/loses weight.

[Knightro]

He sure does fall down a lot.
I really liked that over-the-back pass he made the 17th time he fell down.
Wonder if he'll play some PF if he tones up/loses weight.

Apparently he's already lost the weight.

According to an ESPN article from about a month ago, Şengün weighed roughly 265-270 during the 19-20 season as a 17-year old.

Then in-between that season and this season (with additional time off due to the COVID shutdown) and he got himself into much better physical shape.

He's apparently played most of this season at around 240-245, which if he's going to measure 6'10" really puts him closer size wise to guys like Julius Randle and Kevin Love than it does Jokic or Nurkic.

[RookieStar]

Think about it this way.

If Kuminga had not reclassified and instead opted to go to college with his original draft class, he'd *still* be a younger freshman than Cunningham, Mobley, Suggs or Barnes were this year. That's how much younger he is than those guys.

He put up 16-7-3 as the youngest player in the G-League bubble. With his size and strength, what do you think he'd have done against weaker college competition with another year of experience under his belt?

It stands to reason that he'd have really dominated and likely positioned himself to go No. 1 overall in 2022.

He needs time. He needs patience. But thankfully those are two things the Magic clearly have at this point with no real pressure or expectation to be good anytime soon. The potential is certainly there for Kuminga to hit in a really big way.

I also think depending on his school, would he have a veteran floor leader like Jack who is probably the best pg in the GL? Someone who vould settle down the team and set people up properly? Would he also have a scoring teammate like Green who opposing teams best defender is probably glued on? Would he be able to produce like that as a cog in a machine and thus maximize his stats compared to college where all eyes and defense are on him.

So many questions ... but his potential is there.

[GelbeWand09]

There’s probably 2-3 guys (in the top 20) after 1-5 that will end up far exceeding expectations. It’s usually the case.

The numbers absolutely back this up.

You look back since 2010 and there have been 14 all-stars drafted between pick 7 and pick 16 and likely going to be a 2-3 more recent picks who are going to become all-stars on top of that.

17 all-stars in 11 drafts all picked in the middle to back half of the lottery. About a 15% chance of finding one.

Undervalued guys are out there every year, it's just a matter of figuring out who they are, acquiring them, and then putting them in the best possible position to maximum whatever ceiling they may have.

Yea i know that, but thats not what i wrote. From the data we have now, 60-70% of the guys around the chi pick cant shoot & guys like Kispert or Wagner scream role players. This doesnt mean 1 or 2 of the guys learn to shoot as example. If someone like Kuminga, Barnes or the Johnsons learn to shoot, they maybe become top 3 players of this draft or better. On the other side history tells us 1 or 2 of the top 4 probably wont be Allstars (Green could end up a JR Smith like player or Suggs a George Hill level PG, Mobley the next Wiseman...)
Based on what they shown so far, its harder to project who are the hidden gems for me, compared to the last 3-4 drafts. + The only guy i believe for sure he gonna produce numbers around the chi pick, i dont like as a player type in Sengun.

[GelbeWand09]

I know we can’t get caught up on fit on a team as bad as ours but.. I don’t like the thought of drafting a big man that high. Especially when we have 2 big men on rookie deals, one of whom I project to be a serviceable starter. Not only just fit either, I just don’t see the value.

I don’t see him as an AD, Dwight Howard, Embiid level prospect.

I think he might be more on the JJr/Ayton tier. Even then - JJr seems to have better range


I get the feeling that posters are trying to convince themselves that they are okay with Mobley to soften the blow of us potentially falling out of the top 3

I think he got much better 2 way potential. JJr was projected to be a really good defender but so far this doesnt translated at all. He is worlds away from Isaac or Bam. Ayton improved on defense but he doesnt have the mobility like Mobley, Bam or Isaac.

I think his potential is in between of AD/Embiid & Ayton/JJr. I would say Bam catagory. Its not enough for me to take him over the 3 guards but enough to take him over anyone else.

JJr looked pretty similar to Mobley defensively IMO. Both won conference defensive player of the year.. both were prolific shot blockers (JJr even more so), both struggled rebounding and both needed to bulk up..

Except JJr did the above against better competition while being the youngest player in his draft class in a year where college sports weren’t a joke

I would concede that he can turn out Bam level though, and that Mobley appears be a more natural scorer than JJr, and a better defender than Ayton.

I still hope we end up top 3 though..

Yea at college (personally i always thought he looks a bit stiff? defending in space, dont know how to describe it but he got really strange movement & posture for me + his looooow BBIQ) but like i wrote i hope we draft one of the 3 guards too but i woudnt be shocked if we draft Mobley or even Kuminga above Suggs.

[Xatticus]

Wow, Dosunmu and Springer predicted to slide far in that mock. Giddey going late lottery will be another steal, too.

If these mocks are anywhere near accurate, I think there will be real value available later.

I doubt I'd take Dosunmu with the Chicago pick, but he is definitely interesting. He's kind of out of place in this modern era, but he can get to the basket and he can finish when he gets there. That's something to build off of. The issue I have is that he is going to have to have the ball in his hands a lot to do his work and he loves mid-range, pull-up jump shots. He looks sort of like DeRozan to me, though probably not as athletic. He needs to get his turnovers down as well.

...

Garuba seems too low. He averaged 30 mins a game in Real Madrid's series against Efes as a 19-year-old. His box score stats don't really impress, but didn't Denver just give us a package to get someone to do what Garuba could do on a really cheap salary?

...

I think there are a bunch of intriguing landmines in this draft, so some nice players are going to drop. I thought that last year as well though and a bunch of those landmines fell and the guys I wanted were gone by the time our pick rolled around... so who knows?

I think Ayo’s game will continue to grow, and his range will continue to extend. Hopefully. Maybe he falls in love with the midrange like DeRozan and Fultz, but Ayo seems to have more potential and capability already from deep so hopefully he’s pushed to keep adding to that. Some of his passes are just mind blowing to me. He can make passes that look like deflections/volleys because he’s read the defense before the ball has reached him and flicks it on immediately.

I hadn’t watched any of Garuba yet. Just checked highlights and he seems very interesting. Pretty great package to build off of from that age, like a more skilled Aminu. His game seems to move slowly compared to others on the court around him (I thought he was a C at first), but he wasn’t falling out of step or place, which is interesting. He had than Ben Wallace instinct for blocking shots though, that’s for sure.

Any other sleepers you’ve come across so far?

I wouldn't bet against Dosunmu due to his growth over this three years, but his 3PAr has plummeted. I don't think you are going to be able to get him back into a 3nD type of role. He hasn't been efficient enough that I'd be comfortable giving him a big role unless it was in the second unit. There is certainly value in having a guy like that on the floor for occasions when the offense is struggling and the shot clock is winding down, but I don't know how you maximize that value while keeping the guy in a lane the rest of the time. He has continued to develop, so I doubt he is a finished product at this point and he may continue to surprise.

Garuba looks like a big at first glance, but his hips are really fluid and he is going to be a handful for pretty much anyone. It will take him time to hone his skills, but you will never have to worry about him being physically outmatched. I'd expect there are a bunch of teams in the west that would love to throw him at the likes of LeBron and Kawhi.

I loved Mathurin, but he is returning to school. I thought he could've been coaxed out with a first-round promise after their head coach got fired. He entered the transfer portal, but he was talked into returning to Arizona.

Tre Mann: I watched him play a couple times this year. He is obviously really talented and is still figuring out how to put it all together. His step back is a thing of beauty. He is a nightmare to cover in isolations. It never occurred to me when I watched him that he would be a point guard at the next level, so we will have to wait and see on that. He isn't there, but the offensive upside is really high.

Bones Hyland: He's a shooter. The NBA 3-point line is not an issue. He has a quick release and he will let it fly from anywhere. His shooting line is more impressive after you see the variety of shots he launches. His physical tools and athleticism are adequate and the rest of his game has to come along, but the shot is already a weapon.

Kessler Edwards: He can obviously shoot. He can obviously finish. He doesn't get all the way to the rim very often, but he has floaters and a mid-range game. He is a long and tall wing. What's not to like? He is very much a 3nD and I don't know how good or versatile he can be defensively, but I'd take a shot with him. I don't generally like players with such a low assist percentage, but his shooting line is just too appealing for me.

Trey Murphy: He's similar to Kessler Edwards. He is a 3nD prospect. He also has a low assist percentage, but he has the tools to be a decent defender and he can obviously shoot and finish.

Joel Ayayi: Don't have to say much about this one. His turnover to assist ratio isn't good and he probably passes up some good looks, but he is otherwise well rounded.

Quentin Grimes: His career shooting line is a bit sketchy, but he should be a good defender. If his shooting really has improved, then he isn't all that dissimilar from Moody, albeit significantly older.

Max Abmas: He is small and not really a facilitator, but he could be something akin to Bryn Forbes or Patty Mills.

Neemias Queta: He is rather old, but he has a big frame, good length, decent mobility, and he fills up a box score. He has potential as a rim protector. I'd take him over Bassey because of his superior physical tools and because he isn't a black hole. The possession is effectively over once Bassey touches the ball.

The only one of these guys that is currently projected to go in the first round is Mann, so I think there is some value to be had in the second round. There are some other interesting bigs, none of which are named Luka Garza. There are also some interesting Euros that might be worth a draft and stash if they aren't determined to come over immediately. Duarte and Springer might also fall into the realm of sleepers as I've seen them mocked all over the place.

[pepe1991]

Here's Alperen Şengün's first playoff game from 4 days ago on 5/14.

He had 22 PTS, 10 REB, 8 AST, 4 STL, 2 BLK on 7-12 FG, 8-11 FT

Watch on YouTube

He sure does fall down a lot.
I really liked that over-the-back pass he made the 17th time he fell down.
Wonder if he'll play some PF if he tones up/loses weight.

second game :
10 points
7 rebounds
2 assists

4-11 FG
0-2 for 3
2-4 FTs

Sehmus Hazer (age 22) 20 points, 9 assists,4 rebounds
Osmani (age 22) 19 points , 9 rebounds
In direct reply to Knightro and claim he is 4 years at least younger than other players. He is,but most of turkish teams who are not contending, are force-feeding young players in big role. I'm not even sure is it up yet, but in past Turkish league allowed only 5 non - Turkey born players to even play. Some Europe teams have restrictions on how many non native players can be played at once.


i can make huge post that nobody will read why Sengun isn't comparable to guys like Nurkic, Gasol, Jokic and other succesfull crossovers but i won't bother.

Next game, that is scheaduled for today, is his team vs Efes. Efes is one of 2 Euroleague contending turkish teams and that game will show how ready he is for nba. Because that is type of competition Gasol & Doncic dominated at his age. Euroleague basketball.

Sengun can turn into solid nba player if he shows massive improvments in his body and advances his game to 3 point range. But During 2018,2019 ,2020 and 2021 he showed no 3 point range whatsoever. He even shot sub 20% for 3 at U 18 competitions for 2 years straight.
But today, being 6'9 post scorer with limited mobility, short wingspan, already standing at 240 pounds , i don't see how execlly he can advance his game to make it worth-wile in nba , for playoff basketball.
For every Sabonis , there is one Jah Okafor with similar skillset that flat out flopps. Or he can be modern day Carlos Loozer.

[GelbeWand09]

Here's Alperen Şengün's first playoff game from 4 days ago on 5/14.

He had 22 PTS, 10 REB, 8 AST, 4 STL, 2 BLK on 7-12 FG, 8-11 FT

Watch on YouTube

He sure does fall down a lot.
I really liked that over-the-back pass he made the 17th time he fell down.
Wonder if he'll play some PF if he tones up/loses weight.

second game :
10 points
7 rebounds
2 assists

4-11 FG
0-2 for 3
2-4 FTs

Sehmus Hazer (age 22) 20 points, 9 assists,4 rebounds
Osmani (age 22) 19 points , 9 rebounds


i can make huge post that nobody will read why Sengun isn't comparable to guys like Nurkic, Gasol, Jokic and other succesfull crossovers but i won't bother.

Next game, that is scheaduled for today, is his team vs Efes. Efes is one of 2 Euroleague contending turkish teams and that game will show how ready he is for nba. Because that is type of competition Gasol & Doncic dominated at his age. Euroleague basketball.

I've seen Pau live a few times when he played for Barca at 19-20 because my older brother studied in Barcelona at the time. Yea he was in a different talent level for sure. He doesnt played much but every minute he played you saw the talent. He was soooo looong and moved still so graceful on the court. The difference between him & the slow gigantic behemoth Roberto Duenas
That team was really fun to watch with young Navarro, Karnisovas & Jasikevicius.

[Xatticus]

Here's Alperen Şengün's first playoff game from 4 days ago on 5/14.

He had 22 PTS, 10 REB, 8 AST, 4 STL, 2 BLK on 7-12 FG, 8-11 FT

Watch on YouTube

He sure does fall down a lot.
I really liked that over-the-back pass he made the 17th time he fell down.
Wonder if he'll play some PF if he tones up/loses weight.

That's just part of his game. Opponents will get tired of him quickly. The Turkish Super League is officiated differently from the NBA and he will have to adjust to it, but he definitely puts the onus on the officials to blow the whistle. He'll figure out NBA officials and get to the free throw line with regularity.

You can't really see it from highlight videos, but he fights for position in the post and they frequently run their offense through him. He doesn't just grab and go to work once he catches. He can really pass out of the post. He surveys the floor and often catches his defender leaning while he is reading the floor. His game really does look a lot like Jokic's, but he doesn't have Jokic's size. His shot even looks similar to Jokic's in that the lower body isn't very involved but he gets good rotation on it.

He didn't play as well in the second game of the series against Tofas, but he did have a couple big dunks and a gorgeous pass where he hooked the ball behind a defender's back to hit a cutter. They won the series and will play Efes next. Getting past Efes is a big ask. They are one of the best clubs in Europe. They are in the EuroLeague semifinals and have only lost one domestic game all season long. They have six former NBA players. That series starts today and is best of 5.

[pepe1991]

He sure does fall down a lot.
I really liked that over-the-back pass he made the 17th time he fell down.
Wonder if he'll play some PF if he tones up/loses weight.

second game :
10 points
7 rebounds
2 assists

4-11 FG
0-2 for 3
2-4 FTs

Sehmus Hazer (age 22) 20 points, 9 assists,4 rebounds
Osmani (age 22) 19 points , 9 rebounds


i can make huge post that nobody will read why Sengun isn't comparable to guys like Nurkic, Gasol, Jokic and other succesfull crossovers but i won't bother.

Next game, that is scheaduled for today, is his team vs Efes. Efes is one of 2 Euroleague contending turkish teams and that game will show how ready he is for nba. Because that is type of competition Gasol & Doncic dominated at his age. Euroleague basketball.

I've seen Pau live a few times when he played for Barca at 19-20 because my older brother studied in Barcelona at the time. Yea he was in a different talent level for sure. He doesnt played much but every minute he played you saw the talent. He was soooo looong and moved still so graceful on the court. The difference between him & the slow gigantic behemoth Roberto Duenas
That team was really fun to watch with young Navarro, Karnisovas & Jasikevicius.

Pau was next level. Skilled, fast 7 footer that could turn both shoulders but also shoot over bigs.
I remember when he was like 32 and Ante Tomic ( who was like 26 )was dominating euroleague, people made lot of hype about their duel.... Man it wasn't duel, it was manslaughter. Pau destroyed him.

I'll never forget that one Eurobasket that he won by himself.

[RookieStar]

well then, someone bettet posts videos about this match of Sengun against a top team then lol

[Xatticus]

well then, someone bettet posts videos about this match of Sengun against a top team then lol

Someone will livestream them on Youtube. You can just search Efes Besiktas.

[drsd]

Think about it this way.

If Kuminga had not reclassified and instead opted to go to college with his original draft class, he'd *still* be a younger freshman than Cunningham, Mobley, Suggs or Barnes were this year. That's how much younger he is than those guys.

He put up 16-7-3 as the youngest player in the G-League bubble. With his size and strength, what do you think he'd have done against weaker college competition with another year of experience under his belt?

It stands to reason that he'd have really dominated and likely positioned himself to go No. 1 overall in 2022.

He needs time. He needs patience. But thankfully those are two things the Magic clearly have at this point with no real pressure or expectation to be good anytime soon. The potential is certainly there for Kuminga to hit in a really big way.

If the Magic win the lottery and draft Cunningham, what do you think would be a fair trade to move up to #5 to then also take Kuminga?

I would think that Anthony, The Bulls pick, the 2023 Bulls pick, and the Denver pick could be enough.

There is roster imbalance and Harris would beed to be traded for "anything" before opening night.
But the young core that result is:
Fultz/Hampton
Cunningham
Isaac
Kuminga/Okeke
Carter/Bamba

There is a lot of good things that could be built around those 8 locked-in players.


..

[Knightro]

second game :
10 points
7 rebounds
2 assists

4-11 FG
0-2 for 3
2-4 FTs

Sehmus Hazer (age 22) 20 points, 9 assists,4 rebounds
Osmani (age 22) 19 points , 9 rebounds
In direct reply to Knightro and claim he is 4 years at least younger than other players. He is,but most of turkish teams who are not contending, are force-feeding young players in big role. I'm not even sure is it up yet, but in past Turkish league allowed only 5 non - Turkey born players to even play. Some Europe teams have restrictions on how many non native players can be played at once.

i can make huge post that nobody will read why Sengun isn't comparable to guys like Nurkic, Gasol, Jokic and other succesfull crossovers but i won't bother.

Next game, that is scheaduled for today, is his team vs Efes. Efes is one of 2 Euroleague contending turkish teams and that game will show how ready he is for nba. Because that is type of competition Gasol & Doncic dominated at his age. Euroleague basketball.

Sengun can turn into solid nba player if he shows massive improvments in his body and advances his game to 3 point range. But During 2018,2019 ,2020 and 2021 he showed no 3 point range whatsoever. He even shot sub 20% for 3 at U 18 competitions for 2 years straight.
But today, being 6'9 post scorer with limited mobility, short wingspan, already standing at 240 pounds , i don't see how execlly he can advance his game to make it worth-wile in nba , for playoff basketball.
For every Sabonis , there is one Jah Okafor with similar skillset that flat out flopps. Or he can be modern day Carlos Loozer.

You said one thing here that really stood out to me.

"Efes is one of 2 Euroleague contending turkish teams and that game will show how ready he is for nba."

He's 18 years old.

Of course he's not ready to be a primary option in the NBA right now. But any team that is factoring in how "ready" an 18-year-old is to play in the NBA is simply evaluating the situation incorrectly.

With very rare exceptions - true mega star talents like LeBron, Doncic, etc - you should never make a high draft pick with how much they can help you immediately being a primary factor.

Any rookie the Magic draft is under team control for a minimum of five seasons. And let's be frank, pretty much no first round pick that a team absolutely wanted to retain has ever not signed that first contract extension.

So you really have first round guys locked in for 7 or 8 years before they can leave in unrestricted free agency. That's a long time!

I look at Şengün and I see the same "eye test" issues as everyone else sees. When you watch his games, it doesn't *look* like he's very athletic. It doesn't *look* like what he's going to face in the NBA, specifically around the rim.

But at the same time, I see a guy who made massive improvement from age 16 to age 18. I don't really see why anyone would be looking at him through a "this is what he is" lens when he's already made the type of tangible improvements you really want to see at his age.

Also when you look around the NBA, pretty much every center that makes at least 80% from the FT line - Jokic, Embiid, Porzingis, Towns, Lopez, Vucevic - have also developed into solid/good 3PT shooters. Same thing with guys who are more natural 4's like Jerami Grant, Collins, Olynyk, Randle, Gallinari, a high end FT stroke is a strong indicator that a 3PT shot will develop.

I have no reason to believe that Şengün won't make threes at the NBA level in due time. I'm not a shot guru, but his shooting stroke looks more than good enough to translate.

Beyond the shooting, I just see extremely encouraging things in his statistical profile. People suggest he won't be able to hang defensively, but his activity level on that end of the floor far surpasses guys who have been known to be weaker NBA defenders like Vucevic, Okafor, Love, Kanter etc.

Şengün's at 4.1 STL/BLK per 40 which are good numbers for a big man period. When you factor in age and competition level, they look really good. So much of defense for big men truly boils down to effort and motor and I think Şengün does both of those things well.

Then you factor in the passing skill, how good his hands already are, his ability to crash the glass, and I'm sold.

A 6'10" player with ball skills who plays hard and plays with physicality? Who also happens to be only 18 and certainly isn't anywhere close to done improving?

I'm sold on Şengün anywhere after probably the 6th/7th pick or so. He's my top target for the Bulls pick at 8-9-10-11, wherever it lands if they don't hit the lottery.

[Knightro]

If the Magic win the lottery and draft Cunningham, what do you think would be a fair trade to move up to #5 to then also take Kuminga?

I would think that Anthony, The Bulls pick, the 2023 Bulls pick, and the Denver pick could be enough.

There is roster imbalance and Harris would beed to be traded for "anything" before opening night.
But the young core that result is:
Fultz/Hampton
Cunningham
Isaac
Kuminga/Okeke
Carter/Bamba

There is a lot of good things that could be built around those 8 locked-in players.

I'm not sure the Magic really need to do that. Couldn't they just make the Bulls pick at 8 or 9 and get a talented player and retain those other assets?

[j-ragg]

If the Magic win the lottery and draft Cunningham, what do you think would be a fair trade to move up to #5 to then also take Kuminga?

I would think that Anthony, The Bulls pick, the 2023 Bulls pick, and the Denver pick could be enough.

There is roster imbalance and Harris would beed to be traded for "anything" before opening night.
But the young core that result is:
Fultz/Hampton
Cunningham
Isaac
Kuminga/Okeke
Carter/Bamba

There is a lot of good things that could be built around those 8 locked-in players.

I'm not sure the Magic really need to do that. Couldn't they just make the Bulls pick at 8 or 9 and get a talented player and retain those other assets?

I’d trade that to move up for Cade... for Kuminga? Don’t think going from 10-5 warrants that package unless someone else slipped to 5.

[fateis007]

Hard pass on Kuminga, his gleague season was terrible IMO, statisically he was a high usage, very ineffcient player. I don't buy the age card and hypotheticals, I would rather just go by results.