Around the NBA (Non-Celtics) 2020-21, Part 2

[threrf23]

Ujiri going to give some serious thought about resigning with Toronto.

That is a GM that I would love ownership to court. Boston could be a location that could garner Masai's full attention.

Ujiri sucks for the most part IMO, okay relative to other GMs but not above par. The Kawhi trade was key and the Gasol trade (and willingness to trade Valuciunas) was underrated...but those things happened after Bobby Webster was named the actual GM for the Raptors and they represented a departure from the norm. Siakam's contract was terrible, especially given a context where he had trade value and there was a real chance Kawhi stayed if they could have made a move for PG.

[JediMasterRevan]

Ujiri going to give some serious thought about resigning with Toronto.

That is a GM that I would love ownership to court. Boston could be a location that could garner Masai's full attention.

Ujiri sucks for the most part IMO, okay relative to other GMs but not above par. The Kawhi trade was key and the Gasol trade (and willingness to trade Valuciunas) was underrated...but those things happened after Bobby Webster was named the actual GM for the Raptors and they represented a departure from the norm. Siakam's contract was terrible, especially given a context where he had trade value and there was a real chance Kawhi stayed if they could have made a move for PG.

I think alot of people will disagree with your assessment of Ujiri.

[Bleeding Green]

Ujiri going to give some serious thought about resigning with Toronto.

That is a GM that I would love ownership to court. Boston could be a location that could garner Masai's full attention.

Ujiri sucks for the most part IMO, okay relative to other GMs but not above par. The Kawhi trade was key and the Gasol trade (and willingness to trade Valuciunas) was underrated...but those things happened after Bobby Webster was named the actual GM for the Raptors and they represented a departure from the norm. Siakam's contract was terrible, especially given a context where he had trade value and there was a real chance Kawhi stayed if they could have made a move for PG.

This is way off. He has developed more fringe talent in the last 3 years than Ainge has in 20. Look at all the players he's gotten outside the lottery and as UDFA.

Siakam, FVV, Boucher, traded Grevis Vazquez for Norman Powell and OG Anunoby (!!), turned Powell into Trent, Jr. Rotation players like Terence Davis and Yuta Watanabe, he got those for free, too. And yeah, he took the risk on Kawhi that obviously paid off and the Gasol trade was key. Go watch Malachi Flynn the last month of the regular season, Ujiri got another great player at pick 29. No way he 'sucks for the most part'.

[BK_2020]

This is way off. He has developed more fringe talent in the last 3 years than Ainge has in 20. Look at all the players he's gotten outside the lottery and as UDFA.

Siakam, FVV, Boucher, traded Grevis Vazquez for Norman Powell and OG Anunoby (!!), turned Powell into Trent, Jr. Rotation players like Terence Davis and Yuta Watanabe, he got those for free, too. And yeah, he took the risk on Kawhi that obviously paid off and the Gasol trade was key. Go watch Malachi Flynn the last month of the regular season, Ujiri got another great player at pick 29. No way he 'sucks for the most part'.

So Siakam, FVV, Boucher, Norm Powell, OG, TD, and Yuta Watanabe. That's 7 players you listed as outside the lottery and UDFA broken down as 1 fringe AS, 3 good starters (FVV, Norm, OG), 1 good bench player (Boucher), and 2 bad bench players (TD and Yuta).

I think Ainge in 20 years can beat that, starting with Rondo.

[Bleeding Green]

This is way off. He has developed more fringe talent in the last 3 years than Ainge has in 20. Look at all the players he's gotten outside the lottery and as UDFA.

Siakam, FVV, Boucher, traded Grevis Vazquez for Norman Powell and OG Anunoby (!!), turned Powell into Trent, Jr. Rotation players like Terence Davis and Yuta Watanabe, he got those for free, too. And yeah, he took the risk on Kawhi that obviously paid off and the Gasol trade was key. Go watch Malachi Flynn the last month of the regular season, Ujiri got another great player at pick 29. No way he 'sucks for the most part'.

So Siakam, FVV, Boucher, Norm Powell, OG, TD, and Yuta Watanabe. That's 7 players you listed as outside the lottery and UDFA broken down as 1 fringe AS, 3 good starters (FVV, Norm, OG), 1 good bench player (Boucher), and 2 bad bench players (TD and Yuta).

I think Ainge in 20 years can beat that, starting with Rondo.

OK I was exaggerating. The point is he gets players for free all the time. They don't win a title without Siakam, Powell, OG, FVV. OG and Powell he got for free from a trade. Siakam with the 26th pick. FVV for free as an undrafted player. The whole rotation this year was basically free players and Lowry. And he'll probably turn Lowry into something of value on his way out the door. Boucher is MIP candidate and a bona fide starting C in this league, would be the best C on the Celtics for sure.

[threrf23]

Siakam, FVV, Boucher, traded Grevis Vazquez for Norman Powell and OG Anunoby (!!), turned Powell into Trent, Jr. Rotation players like Terence Davis and Yuta Watanabe, he got those for free, too. And yeah, he took the risk on Kawhi that obviously paid off and the Gasol trade was key. Go watch Malachi Flynn the last month of the regular season, Ujiri got another great player at pick 29. No way he 'sucks for the most part'.

He has had hits and misses, and has been above average scouting new talent. But a majority of his hits IMO came after Bobby Webster was assigned to the GM position in 2017 (which happened a year after Ujiri relinquished the title, and I presume Webster was promoted for a reason). Before that I feel like he was underwhelming as a GM, not the GM he had previously been given credit for. I am skeptical that he has been all that personally responsible for many of these moves, and whatever the case the Raptors seem to have failed in sustaining momentum post-championship (granted, losing a player like Kawhi is always tough).

(ok, he doesn't suck for the most part, but I still don't think he is the GM he gets credit for being)

[Bleeding Green]

Siakam, FVV, Boucher, traded Grevis Vazquez for Norman Powell and OG Anunoby (!!), turned Powell into Trent, Jr. Rotation players like Terence Davis and Yuta Watanabe, he got those for free, too. And yeah, he took the risk on Kawhi that obviously paid off and the Gasol trade was key. Go watch Malachi Flynn the last month of the regular season, Ujiri got another great player at pick 29. No way he 'sucks for the most part'.

He has had hits and misses, and has been above average scouting new talent. But a majority of his hits IMO came after Bobby Webster was assigned to the GM position in 2017 (which happened a year after Ujiri relinquished the title, and I presume Webster was promoted for a reason). Before that I feel like he was underwhelming as a GM, not the GM he had previously been given credit for. I am skeptical that he has been all that personally responsible for many of these moves, and whatever the case the Raptors seem to have failed in sustaining momentum post-championship (granted, losing a player like Kawhi is always tough).

(ok, he doesn't suck for the most part, but I still don't think he is the GM he gets credit for being)

Yeah I don't have inside knowledge of the power structure and who specifically is the one who traded Greivis Vazquez or got Fred Van Vleet for free. I feel it's likely the same in Boston where Zarren is the one making all the important moves, but Ainge is just a figurehead who has cache with all the former athletes who run front offices and sports agencies across the league. Like Zarren is working 18 hours a day while Ainge is out flyfishing or whatever Mormons do in their spare time. When Zarren has the plan, he calls up Ainge and then Ainge calls Elton Brand; they talk about insider stuff about their old playing days for a bit and then Ainge bends him over and gives him Fultz in exchange for Tatum and Langford. Doesn't work so well when the teams smarten up and start putting non-athletes in the FO, though.

[BK_2020]

picked Caboclo over Jokic.

[threrf23]

picked Caboclo over Jokic.

I mean, we picked James Young over Jokic

[Bleeding Green]

Fire all 30 GMs. They picked at least one player before Jokic.

198 players went before Brady, fire all 32 NFL GMs.

[BK_2020]

Fire all 30 GMs. They picked at least one player before Jokic.

Including the guy who picked Jokic. Fire the bum!

[Bleeding Green]

It's only fair, they took Mudiay before Jokic. I can't believe teams weren't falling over themselves to draft a fat 19 year old Serbian kid who drank 3 liters of Pepsi a day.

[threrf23]

Yeah I don't have inside knowledge of the power structure and who specifically is the one who traded Greivis Vazquez or got Fred Van Vleet for free. I feel it's likely the same in Boston where Zarren is the one making all the important moves, but Ainge is just a figurehead who has cache with all the former athletes who run front offices and sports agencies across the league. Like Zarren is working 18 hours a day while Ainge is out flyfishing or whatever Mormons do in their spare time. When Zarren has the plan, he calls up Elton Brand; they talk about insider stuff for a bit and then Ainge bends him over and gives him Fultz in exchange for Tatum and Langford. Doesn't work so well when the teams smarten up and start putting non-athletes in the FO, though.

tbh I'm probably just wrong here. Looking over his history, he has made a number of solid trades over the years. Raymond Felton for Jordan Hamilton, Andre Miller, and a 2nd round pick. A 2nd round pick (became Demetrius Jackson) for Corey Brewer and Rudy Fernandez, Afflalo & Al Harrington for Iggy, Bargnani for Camby, Novak, QRich, 1st round pick (became Poeltl), two 2nds. Jared Sullinger and two 2nds for PJ Tucker.

edit - I do though think he messed up not shopping Siakam after the 2019 season. I get he was rewarding hard work as much as he was retaining an asset, but Siakam just wasn't as good as his rep and they needed a tradeable asset to ensure their progression in the event Kawhi stayed, or cap space + new talent to retool in the event he left.

[Bleeding Green]

Yeah I don't have inside knowledge of the power structure and who specifically is the one who traded Greivis Vazquez or got Fred Van Vleet for free. I feel it's likely the same in Boston where Zarren is the one making all the important moves, but Ainge is just a figurehead who has cache with all the former athletes who run front offices and sports agencies across the league. Like Zarren is working 18 hours a day while Ainge is out flyfishing or whatever Mormons do in their spare time. When Zarren has the plan, he calls up Elton Brand; they talk about insider stuff for a bit and then Ainge bends him over and gives him Fultz in exchange for Tatum and Langford. Doesn't work so well when the teams smarten up and start putting non-athletes in the FO, though.

tbh I'm probably just wrong here. Looking over his history, he has made a number of solid trades over the years. Raymond Felton for Jordan Hamilton, Andre Miller, and a 2nd round pick. A 2nd round pick (became Demetrius Jackson) for Corey Brewer and Rudy Fernandez, Afflalo & Al Harrington for Iggy, Bargnani for Camby, Novak, QRich, 1st round pick (became Poeltl), two 2nds. Jared Sullinger and two 2nds for PJ Tucker.

edit - I do though think he messed up not shopping Siakam after the 2019 season. I get he was rewarding hard work as much as he was retaining an asset, but Siakam just wasn't as good as his rep and they needed a tradeable asset to ensure their progression in the event Kawhi stayed, or cap space + new talent to retool in the event he left.

Siakam has taken a bit of a step back the last two years, especially since March of last year when everything in this world got all **** up, but he's taken on like 50% more offensive workload. I think he'll come back just fine next year. I don't think you trade a player like that unless you get a king's ransom in return. No one trades a player like that coming off his best season, looking like he's ascending to a potential top-10/20 player in the league. There were times he was the best player on the court in that Finals. Playing with 5 or more hall of famers on the floor.

[Captain_Caveman]

Ujiri going to give some serious thought about resigning with Toronto.

That is a GM that I would love ownership to court. Boston could be a location that could garner Masai's full attention.

Ujiri sucks for the most part IMO, okay relative to other GMs but not above par. The Kawhi trade was key and the Gasol trade (and willingness to trade Valuciunas) was underrated...but those things happened after Bobby Webster was named the actual GM for the Raptors and they represented a departure from the norm. Siakam's contract was terrible, especially given a context where he had trade value and there was a real chance Kawhi stayed if they could have made a move for PG.

This is way off. He has developed more fringe talent in the last 3 years than Ainge has in 20. Look at all the players he's gotten outside the lottery and as UDFA.

Siakam, FVV, Boucher, traded Grevis Vazquez for Norman Powell and OG Anunoby (!!), turned Powell into Trent, Jr. Rotation players like Terence Davis and Yuta Watanabe, he got those for free, too. And yeah, he took the risk on Kawhi that obviously paid off and the Gasol trade was key. Go watch Malachi Flynn the last month of the regular season, Ujiri got another great player at pick 29. No way he 'sucks for the most part'.

With you in the first sentence, but not the second.

Ainge has been outstanding with his non-lottery picks. Rondo, TA, Bradley, Al Jefferson, Rozier, Gerald Green, Timelord, Pritchard all great picks. Perkins as well, although that may have been more of a Wallace/Papile pick in the early days of Ainge's tenure. Add in lesser guys like Delonte, Gomes, Big Baby, Powe, E'Twaun Moore, Ojeleye, and Nader, who were all good players for their draft position.

Loosen the "outside the lottery" criteria only slightly and you have Olynyk, Langford, and Nesmith. Plus we traded a late 1st for IT.

Ainge has been cranking out one decent to excellent rotation player a year with picks outside the top 12 ever since he got here. Within the top 12, he hit on all picks he retained, and used three others to directly or indirectly add KG, Ray, and Kyrie. The implication that he is anything less than an elite drafter is demonstrably false, and dramatically so. That narrative needs to die.

Yes, Ujiri is also elite.

[Captain_Caveman]

Siakam, FVV, Boucher, traded Grevis Vazquez for Norman Powell and OG Anunoby (!!), turned Powell into Trent, Jr. Rotation players like Terence Davis and Yuta Watanabe, he got those for free, too. And yeah, he took the risk on Kawhi that obviously paid off and the Gasol trade was key. Go watch Malachi Flynn the last month of the regular season, Ujiri got another great player at pick 29. No way he 'sucks for the most part'.

He has had hits and misses, and has been above average scouting new talent. But a majority of his hits IMO came after Bobby Webster was assigned to the GM position in 2017 (which happened a year after Ujiri relinquished the title, and I presume Webster was promoted for a reason). Before that I feel like he was underwhelming as a GM, not the GM he had previously been given credit for. I am skeptical that he has been all that personally responsible for many of these moves, and whatever the case the Raptors seem to have failed in sustaining momentum post-championship (granted, losing a player like Kawhi is always tough).

(ok, he doesn't suck for the most part, but I still don't think he is the GM he gets credit for being)

Yeah I don't have inside knowledge of the power structure and who specifically is the one who traded Greivis Vazquez or got Fred Van Vleet for free. I feel it's likely the same in Boston where Zarren is the one making all the important moves, but Ainge is just a figurehead who has cache with all the former athletes who run front offices and sports agencies across the league. Like Zarren is working 18 hours a day while Ainge is out flyfishing or whatever Mormons do in their spare time. When Zarren has the plan, he calls up Ainge and then Ainge calls Elton Brand; they talk about insider stuff about their old playing days for a bit and then Ainge bends him over and gives him Fultz in exchange for Tatum and Langford. Doesn't work so well when the teams smarten up and start putting non-athletes in the FO, though.

You mean like Billy King?

Not only is Ainge unequivocally one of the top drafters, he might be best in the league at making trades. Both trades involving KG were among the best in league history. Traded a late 1st for Rondo, and another for IT. Got Philly to throw in a lottery pick to move up to take Fultz over Tatum.

Zarren and others have made great contributions, but your takes on Ainge are disprovable across the board.

[Bleeding Green]

He has had hits and misses, and has been above average scouting new talent. But a majority of his hits IMO came after Bobby Webster was assigned to the GM position in 2017 (which happened a year after Ujiri relinquished the title, and I presume Webster was promoted for a reason). Before that I feel like he was underwhelming as a GM, not the GM he had previously been given credit for. I am skeptical that he has been all that personally responsible for many of these moves, and whatever the case the Raptors seem to have failed in sustaining momentum post-championship (granted, losing a player like Kawhi is always tough).

(ok, he doesn't suck for the most part, but I still don't think he is the GM he gets credit for being)

Yeah I don't have inside knowledge of the power structure and who specifically is the one who traded Greivis Vazquez or got Fred Van Vleet for free. I feel it's likely the same in Boston where Zarren is the one making all the important moves, but Ainge is just a figurehead who has cache with all the former athletes who run front offices and sports agencies across the league. Like Zarren is working 18 hours a day while Ainge is out flyfishing or whatever Mormons do in their spare time. When Zarren has the plan, he calls up Ainge and then Ainge calls Elton Brand; they talk about insider stuff about their old playing days for a bit and then Ainge bends him over and gives him Fultz in exchange for Tatum and Langford. Doesn't work so well when the teams smarten up and start putting non-athletes in the FO, though.

You mean like Billy King?

Not only is Ainge unequivocally one of the top drafters, he might be best in the league at making trades. Both trades involving KG were among the best in league history. Traded a late 1st for Rondo, and another for IT. Got Philly to throw in a lottery pick to move up to take Fultz over Tatum.

Zarren and others have made great contributions, but your takes on Ainge are disprovable across the board.

Well if you have insider knowledge of the Celtics FO re: Zarren/Ainge dynamic, I'll give it to you.

I'm an Ainge/Zarren homer. Top-10 FO. Ujiri is better. Connelly is better. Buford is better. Morey and Presti may be better. After that, not really sure. Samples are really too small and variance is too high to say much more; you draft one Jokic in your tenure and that basically is all you ever need to do to be the best GM in the game. Not sure what my takes are on Ainge that have you so fired up lmao

[bisme37]

I know this is old news but since we're talking about drafting, I'm really glad Danny picked Jayson Tatum. Another GM would have royally screwed that up. If we'd ended up with Fultz or Josh Jackson our current and future team would be incredibly depressing.

[aporel18]

Anyone else going GSW tomorrow? I assume everyone's rooting for them, but I'm talking picking them. Steph is insane.

What I'm rooting for:

San Antonio over Memphis.
Warriors over Lakers.

San Antonio over Lakers


What will probably happen:

Memphis over San Antonio.
Warriors over Lakers.

Silver & Lakers over Memphis, so the narratives are all over LeBroid trying to win it all from the 8th seed. GOAT of GOATs, better than Mike and on and on...

I think I was SAS to lose. Not positive, but if they make the playoffs, I think they knock us from 16 to 17 in the draft.

Oops... wasn't aware of that. Just rooting for Popovich to send the Fakers fishing

[Captain_Caveman]

I know this is old news but since we're talking about drafting, I'm really glad Danny picked Jayson Tatum. Another GM would have royally screwed that up. If we'd ended up with Fultz or Josh Jackson our current and future team would be incredibly depressing.

We'd have had to blow it up.

I liked those guys, too. LOL