Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2

[dougthonus]

Ugh, this is one lazy "reasoning".

1st Season:
A stretch of 12 games with a 122-113 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 8 RPG .500 FG% .459 3P%
A stretch of 13 games with a 117-111 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 7 RPG .478 FG% .441 3P%

2nd Season:
A stretch of 17 games with a 106-113 ORTG-DRTG | 18 PPG 7 RPG .460 FG% .404 3P% (The 17 games before the hot stretch)
A stretch of 14 games with a 121-113 ORTG-DRTG | 25 PPG 13 RPG .463 FG% .362 3P%

3rd Season:
A stretch of 20 games with a 119-110 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 6 RPG .488 FG% .405 3P%

4th Season:
A stretch of 18 games with a 115-111 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 6 RPG .508 FG% .412 3P%
A stretch of 14 games with a 116-110 ORTG-DRTG | 11 PPG 5 RPG .487 FG% .453 3P%

In addition, Lauri's hot stretches were often cut short due to freak injuries or occurrences (the heart thing and COVID protocol).

Oh, and Kilpatrick's 9 game stretch that for some reason you think was significant, resulted in an ORTG-DRTG of 107-112

Lauri's amazing when we remove all the data that says he's not amazing.

[CobyWhite0]

Cannot wait to see the excuses being made for him on his new team. Actually no I won’t care at all. Won’t be a Bulls fan’s problem anymore.

Yeah right, like his stans won't add at least 5 pages to this thread every time he has a good game lol.

I'd say the difference is that once he's on another team, the rest of us won't have nearly as much fun discussing how he isn't really all that good.

Not that we won't still do it...

[CobyWhite0]

Ugh, this is one lazy "reasoning".

1st Season:
A stretch of 12 games with a 122-113 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 8 RPG .500 FG% .459 3P%
A stretch of 13 games with a 117-111 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 7 RPG .478 FG% .441 3P%

2nd Season:
A stretch of 17 games with a 106-113 ORTG-DRTG | 18 PPG 7 RPG .460 FG% .404 3P% (The 17 games before the hot stretch)
A stretch of 14 games with a 121-113 ORTG-DRTG | 25 PPG 13 RPG .463 FG% .362 3P%

3rd Season:
A stretch of 20 games with a 119-110 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 6 RPG .488 FG% .405 3P%

4th Season:
A stretch of 18 games with a 115-111 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 6 RPG .508 FG% .412 3P%
A stretch of 14 games with a 116-110 ORTG-DRTG | 11 PPG 5 RPG .487 FG% .453 3P%

In addition, Lauri's hot stretches were often cut short due to freak injuries or occurrences (the heart thing and COVID protocol).

Oh, and Kilpatrick's 9 game stretch that for some reason you think was significant, resulted in an ORTG-DRTG of 107-112

Lauri's amazing when we remove all the data that says he's not amazing.

If anything, those numbers prove that Lauri should probably go to Europe to play - as long as he's not on a team that's good enough to make the EuroLeague or EuroCup, he'll only have to play about 35-40 games per season.

20, 25, 31, 32 good games per season, and he might be an All-Star in the Adriatic League. Maybe the Greek League.

Hell, he could go to China and put up 30 and 20!!

[E-DC]

Ugh, this is one lazy "reasoning".

1st Season:
A stretch of 12 games with a 122-113 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 8 RPG .500 FG% .459 3P%
A stretch of 13 games with a 117-111 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 7 RPG .478 FG% .441 3P%

2nd Season:
A stretch of 17 games with a 106-113 ORTG-DRTG | 18 PPG 7 RPG .460 FG% .404 3P% (The 17 games before the hot stretch)
A stretch of 14 games with a 121-113 ORTG-DRTG | 25 PPG 13 RPG .463 FG% .362 3P%

3rd Season:
A stretch of 20 games with a 119-110 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 6 RPG .488 FG% .405 3P%

4th Season:
A stretch of 18 games with a 115-111 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 6 RPG .508 FG% .412 3P%
A stretch of 14 games with a 116-110 ORTG-DRTG | 11 PPG 5 RPG .487 FG% .453 3P%

In addition, Lauri's hot stretches were often cut short due to freak injuries or occurrences (the heart thing and COVID protocol).

Oh, and Kilpatrick's 9 game stretch that for some reason you think was significant, resulted in an ORTG-DRTG of 107-112

Lauri's amazing when we remove all the data that says he's not amazing.

I see you didn't bother including what I was refuting and decided to change the narrative. No one said that Lauri is amazing. What I showed was that Lauri didn't have only have one hot month as a Bull. I'm amazed I even have to point this out or that someone would get triggered by it. I guess when the team continues to play horrible the human reaction is to find a scapegoat and become strictly invested in that opinion. There's plenty of data in this thread and it has been provided almost entirely by those of us who didn't join in on the scapegoat bandwagon.

There are certainly criticisms to be made of Lauri's game, and as a Bulls fan I hope he builds on what he started. I also hope he does it in a Bulls uniform, because losing him will be quite a hole to fill. Not to mention our lack of young talent and draft picks doesn't look so good right about now.

I'll take a 23 year old, 15-17 ppg scorer on high efficiency, with some solid defense mixed in any day of the week. If he remains at that level he's a nice piece to have, but if he builds on his game even better.

[E-DC]

Ugh, this is one lazy "reasoning".

1st Season:
A stretch of 12 games with a 122-113 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 8 RPG .500 FG% .459 3P%
A stretch of 13 games with a 117-111 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 7 RPG .478 FG% .441 3P%

2nd Season:
A stretch of 17 games with a 106-113 ORTG-DRTG | 18 PPG 7 RPG .460 FG% .404 3P% (The 17 games before the hot stretch)
A stretch of 14 games with a 121-113 ORTG-DRTG | 25 PPG 13 RPG .463 FG% .362 3P%

3rd Season:
A stretch of 20 games with a 119-110 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 6 RPG .488 FG% .405 3P%

4th Season:
A stretch of 18 games with a 115-111 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 6 RPG .508 FG% .412 3P%
A stretch of 14 games with a 116-110 ORTG-DRTG | 11 PPG 5 RPG .487 FG% .453 3P%

In addition, Lauri's hot stretches were often cut short due to freak injuries or occurrences (the heart thing and COVID protocol).

Oh, and Kilpatrick's 9 game stretch that for some reason you think was significant, resulted in an ORTG-DRTG of 107-112

Lauri's amazing when we remove all the data that says he's not amazing.

If anything, those numbers prove that Lauri should probably go to Europe to play - as long as he's not on a team that's good enough to make the EuroLeague or EuroCup, he'll only have to play about 35-40 games per season.

20, 25, 31, 32 good games per season, and he might be an All-Star in the Adriatic League. Maybe the Greek League.

Hell, he could go to China and put up 30 and 20!!

Says the person who thinks a 9 game stretch by Sean Kilpatrick means anything at all. Not to mention that you didn't even bother to look at his advanced stats during that 9 game stretch. You have a ways to go, but keep trying.

[CobyWhite0]

Lauri's amazing when we remove all the data that says he's not amazing.

If anything, those numbers prove that Lauri should probably go to Europe to play - as long as he's not on a team that's good enough to make the EuroLeague or EuroCup, he'll only have to play about 35-40 games per season.

20, 25, 31, 32 good games per season, and he might be an All-Star in the Adriatic League. Maybe the Greek League.

Hell, he could go to China and put up 30 and 20!!

Says the person who thinks a 9 game stretch by Sean Kilpatrick means anything at all. Not to mention that you didn't even bother to look at his advanced stats during that 9 game stretch. You have a ways to go, but keep trying.

sar·casm
/ˈsärˌkazəm/
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

And FTR, I have no contempt to convey. Just so we're clear.

[dougthonus]

I see you didn't bother including what I was refuting and decided to change the narrative. No one said that Lauri is amazing. What I showed was that Lauri didn't have only have one hot month as a Bull. I'm amazed I even have to point this out or that someone would get triggered by it. I guess when the team continues to play horrible the human reaction is to find a scapegoat and become strictly invested in that opinion. There's plenty of data in this thread and it has been provided almost entirely by those of us who didn't join in on the scapegoat bandwagon.

There are certainly criticisms to be made of Lauri's game, and as a Bulls fan I hope he builds on what he started. I also hope he does it in a Bulls uniform, because losing him will be quite a hole to fill. Not to mention our lack of young talent and draft picks doesn't look so good right about now.

I'll take a 23 year old, 15-17 ppg scorer on high efficiency, with some solid defense mixed in any day of the week. If he remains at that level he's a nice piece to have, but if he builds on his game even better.

Lauri's played four NBA seasons and I can't think of any other player in history that people have gone back to quote a one month stretch from 2.5 seasons back to discuss how good he can be which is what the "hot month" comment referred to. I don't think I've ever seen that happen with any other player.

As I've noted many times:
- He isn't a good defender
- He can't create his own shot
- He's efficient when other players get him wide open looks
- He has some size advantage that he can leverage to be effective attacking close outs

He's an okay player. I think he's worth more than the MLE though not a whole lot more.

Will he build on that? Who knows, but probably not. You are basing your opinion on some random stats ignoring the skills underlying those stats. Unless he develops serious court vision or ball handling or step back shots or shots off screens or some other method of applying pressure other than shooting open shots or attacking aggressive closeouts then his upside will be pretty limited.

[Pentele]

I swear there are at least 5 pages worth of posts in this thread, the main content of which is to claim that others (usually the mysterious Lauri-stans) add needlessly to this thread. You can't make this s*** up!

[Leslie Forman]

Has any player this bad ever had so much written about them?

[coldfish]

Has any player this bad ever had so much written about them?

Jamal Crawford?

[Leslie Forman]

Has any player this bad ever had so much written about them?

Jamal Crawford?

I don't remember nearly this much talk about him. There must be well over 1000+ pages of stuff on Lauri here.

Even when he's on some other team's bench, someone will probably start up a new topic here about how Karnisovas screwed up not giving him a max every time he scores more than 15 points.

[Louri]

Has any player this bad ever had so much written about them?

Jamal Crawford?

I don't remember nearly this much talk about him. There must be well over 1000+ pages of stuff on Lauri here.

Even when he's on some other team's bench, someone will probably start up a new topic here about how Karnisovas screwed up not giving him a max every time he scores more than 15 points.

"I told you"-stans are the most feared form of Markkenan Defense forces. Every RealGM Bulls-stans, Lavine-stans and Billy Boylen-stans are already scared.

[Swuul]

I swear there are at least 5 pages worth of posts in this thread, the main content of which is to claim that others (usually the mysterious Lauri-stans) add needlessly to this thread. You can't make this s*** up!

Just to prove the point further, the next 4 posts after this quoted posts were how in the future the Lauri-stans will post useless stuff This thread is indeed priceless

[sami71]

I swear there are at least 5 pages worth of posts in this thread, the main content of which is to claim that others (usually the mysterious Lauri-stans) add needlessly to this thread. You can't make this s*** up!

Just to prove the point further, the next 4 posts after this quoted posts were how in the future the Lauri-stans will post useless stuff This thread is indeed priceless

Reading this thread and thinking about the team needs: Lauri-stans are clearly the best defenders in the whole franchise The Bulls woes are solved.

[drosestruts]

Lauri Lauri Lauri - what an interesting case this guy is/was. I don't think there's any one thing to point to when it comes to Lauri, there's an old saying about where you get drafted being just as important as anything else and I gotta say, I don't think Chicago over the past 4 years was the place for really anyone to succeed.

In the past 4 years I feel like one player has made significant strides and that was Zach LaVine, who covered in much more detail in a different thread, is gaining a reputation as one of the harder working players in the NBA.

In his time in Chicago he never had a good point guard, never had that good of a roster around him in general, until now never had a good coach, and to top it all off he's been played at 3 different positions in his first 4 years. That positional versatility would be awesome in a player who is good, but with Lauri it always seemed sporadic and random and not necessarily in his best interest.

Also looking at Lauri's short chart heat maps is interesting - https://public.tableau.com/en-us/gallery/mapping-nba-shot-locations (you might have to search and find Lauri in there)

He was above average his rookie year at/near the rim then years after he's below average or average from there. Really there's no consistency from year to year in where he was good from.

Such an odd player. Some of it's on him, he always seemed very passive. I worry about the same thing with Williams.

I think he's got plenty of talent, people suggesting he should play in China or Europe are crazy. He's an NBA caliber player, hope he finds the right situation for him. It's not here.

[Pentele]

I swear there are at least 5 pages worth of posts in this thread, the main content of which is to claim that others (usually the mysterious Lauri-stans) add needlessly to this thread. You can't make this s*** up!

Just to prove the point further, the next 4 posts after this quoted posts were how in the future the Lauri-stans will post useless stuff This thread is indeed priceless

Reading this thread and thinking about the team needs: Lauri-stans are clearly the best defenders in the whole franchise The Bulls woes are solved.

But what about the offensive capabilities of Lauri's supporters? If Lauri signs with the Spurs, it is my fervent wish that all Lauri-stans and the members of the Lauri Defense Force join to occupy the RealGM Spurs board. There is practically no activity there so it is ripe for the picking; the moderators won't know what hit them!

[RSP83]

I've moved on from Lauri. Used to be one of his biggest supporter, but the trend of his progress is just disappointing. He's becoming more meh every year, and there's not a lot of sample of guys who had the same thing going and suddenly make huge jump. The only player I can remember who was able to pull that off was Oladipo when he was traded from Thunder to Pacers. It can happen to Lauri, but I won't bet on it. Too bad we couldn't get any team to trade for him at the deadline.

[sco]

Ugh, this is one lazy "reasoning".

1st Season:
A stretch of 12 games with a 122-113 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 8 RPG .500 FG% .459 3P%
A stretch of 13 games with a 117-111 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 7 RPG .478 FG% .441 3P%

2nd Season:
A stretch of 17 games with a 106-113 ORTG-DRTG | 18 PPG 7 RPG .460 FG% .404 3P% (The 17 games before the hot stretch)
A stretch of 14 games with a 121-113 ORTG-DRTG | 25 PPG 13 RPG .463 FG% .362 3P%

3rd Season:
A stretch of 20 games with a 119-110 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 6 RPG .488 FG% .405 3P%

4th Season:
A stretch of 18 games with a 115-111 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 6 RPG .508 FG% .412 3P%
A stretch of 14 games with a 116-110 ORTG-DRTG | 11 PPG 5 RPG .487 FG% .453 3P%

In addition, Lauri's hot stretches were often cut short due to freak injuries or occurrences (the heart thing and COVID protocol).

Oh, and Kilpatrick's 9 game stretch that for some reason you think was significant, resulted in an ORTG-DRTG of 107-112

Lauri's amazing when we remove all the data that says he's not amazing.

I see you didn't bother including what I was refuting and decided to change the narrative. No one said that Lauri is amazing. What I showed was that Lauri didn't have only have one hot month as a Bull. I'm amazed I even have to point this out or that someone would get triggered by it. I guess when the team continues to play horrible the human reaction is to find a scapegoat and become strictly invested in that opinion. There's plenty of data in this thread and it has been provided almost entirely by those of us who didn't join in on the scapegoat bandwagon.

There are certainly criticisms to be made of Lauri's game, and as a Bulls fan I hope he builds on what he started. I also hope he does it in a Bulls uniform, because losing him will be quite a hole to fill. Not to mention our lack of young talent and draft picks doesn't look so good right about now.

I'll take a 23 year old, 15-17 ppg scorer on high efficiency, with some solid defense mixed in any day of the week. If he remains at that level he's a nice piece to have, but if he builds on his game even better.

I think many folks here would "take" a 23 year old, 15-17 ppg scorer on high efficiency, but the issue is how much we'd pay for him, and what the opportunity cost of that $ is. I think most would keep him in the $11-$13M/year range, maybe half would keep him in the $14-16M per year range, but with rumored expectations of a $20M+/year deal most don't want him at that price.

[BullChit]

Lauri's amazing when we remove all the data that says he's not amazing.

I see you didn't bother including what I was refuting and decided to change the narrative. No one said that Lauri is amazing. What I showed was that Lauri didn't have only have one hot month as a Bull. I'm amazed I even have to point this out or that someone would get triggered by it. I guess when the team continues to play horrible the human reaction is to find a scapegoat and become strictly invested in that opinion. There's plenty of data in this thread and it has been provided almost entirely by those of us who didn't join in on the scapegoat bandwagon.

There are certainly criticisms to be made of Lauri's game, and as a Bulls fan I hope he builds on what he started. I also hope he does it in a Bulls uniform, because losing him will be quite a hole to fill. Not to mention our lack of young talent and draft picks doesn't look so good right about now.

I'll take a 23 year old, 15-17 ppg scorer on high efficiency, with some solid defense mixed in any day of the week. If he remains at that level he's a nice piece to have, but if he builds on his game even better.

I think many folks here would "take" a 23 year old, 15-17 ppg scorer on high efficiency, but the issue is how much we'd pay for him, and what the opportunity cost of that $ is. I think most would keep him in the $11-$13M/year range, maybe half would keep him in the $14-16M per year range, but with rumored expectations of a $20M+/year deal most don't want him at that price.

That's the cruxt of this thread right there...

Lauri is an elite efficient scorer
Lauri can't create
Lauri needs a point gaurd
Lauri plays better defence than you say he does
Lauri never was given a real chance
Lauri was given plenty of chances
He's a starter.
No he's a bench player.

Okay we get it but after 4 years and the progress or lack there of he is shown is he worth 20+ million that he wants? It's the exact same debate that's going on about Lonzo...

[E-DC]

I think many folks here would "take" a 23 year old, 15-17 ppg scorer on high efficiency, but the issue is how much we'd pay for him, and what the opportunity cost of that $ is. I think most would keep him in the $11-$13M/year range, maybe half would keep him in the $14-16M per year range, but with rumored expectations of a $20M+/year deal most don't want him at that price.

The truth is I wouldn't give him $20 million a year. To me his aggressiveness goes in and out a bit too much and he has had a propensity for injuries. I would have also liked to have seen an even longer stretch of good defensive play among other things.

But the truth also is that the $20 million is just a rumor.

We also gave up a lot of young assets to get Vuc. I like Williams, but he seems way too lethargic to have high expectations. As for Coby, after two seasons, he has really put together only one strong stretch of games. That only leaves my guy Troy Brown Jr. who also is very much an unknown, but I'm staying optimistic even if that's not usually allowed on this board. And now with Lavine coming out and saying "I definitely want what I deserve, and whatever that is, I’ll have it coming to me" I'm cringing at the situation the Bulls are currently in.

So yeah, I'm hoping we keep Lauri.