[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Thu May 20, 2021 2:03 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Knicks franchise history.

As New York Knicks from 1949-50 to today


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.
Spoiler:
Philadelphia 76ers
Milwaukee Bucks
Chicago Bulls
Cleveland Cavaliers
Boston Celtics
Los Angeles Clippers
Memphis Grizzlies
Atlanta Hawks
Miami Heat
Charlotte Hornets
Utah Jazz
Sacramento Kings
New York Knicks
Los Angeles Lakers
Orlando Magic
Dallas Mavericks
Brooklyn Nets
Denver Nuggets
Indiana Pacers
New Orleans Pelicans
Detroit Pistons
Toronto Raptors
Houston Rockets
San Antonio Spurs
Phoenix Suns
Oklahoma City Thunder
Minnesota Timberwolves
Portland Trail Blazers
Golden State Warriors
Washington Wizards


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

---

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70sFan wrote:.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#2 » by Colbinii » Thu May 20, 2021 2:26 pm

Melo, Starbury and Camby. What a trio.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#3 » by prolific passer » Thu May 20, 2021 2:36 pm

69-70 Willis Reed. First player to win all star, regular season, and finals mvp.
89-90 Patrick Chewing. Career high in ppg and knocked out Bird in his last healthy season.
72-73 Walt Frazier. Should have won finals mvp over a banged up Reed at that time.
83-84 King. Knocked out Isiah and took Bird to the limit in the playoffs.
99 Camby. Really stepped up in the playoffs and helped the 8th seeded knicks make the finals.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#4 » by sansterre » Thu May 20, 2021 3:01 pm

#1. 1969 Willis Reed - 14.7 Win Shares, shot at +7.1% rTS in the playoffs . . . just an all-around monster season.

#2. 1972 Clyde Frazier - 14.5 Win Shares, shot at +8.0% rTS in the playoffs . . . just an all-around monster season. I really don't know which of these two should be first, but I lean toward the big man.

#3. 1990 Patrick Ewing - The more I learn about Ewing the more I learn that I've underrated him. It is impossible to overstate how much Ewing carried the '90 Knicks:

Made Twos: Ewing 921, the next two highest Knicks 769
Made Free Throws: Ewing 502, the next two highest Knicks 456
Rebounds: Ewing 893, next highest Knick 727
Blocks: Ewing 327, the entire rest of the team 165
Points: Ewing 2347, next two highest Knicks 2223

30% usage on +6.2% shooting is impressive, but on a center? He finished 3rd in points and 2nd in blocks that year. Ewing was fantastic, but his supporting cast was . . . not. In the playoffs he posted a +4.3 OBPM, which for a defensive center is excellent.

#4. 1984 Bernard King - In the regular season he was only really good (12.1 Win Shares, 4.3 VORP) and in the playoffs he went nova, posting a +8.4 OBPM. Ultimately I thought that Ewing's regular season superiority carried the day, but King's playoffs were damned impressive.

**GIANT CHASM**

#5. 2005 Stephon Marbury - I like absolutely nobody for this slot. Marbury has the highest Win Shares remaining past 1962 (he has 11.7, '62 Guerin had 12.1 and '59 Sears had 13.3), the highest VORP remaining (5.1, with the next highest being '13 Carmelo's 3.9) and the highest AuRPM (a low +2.3, but the next highest is Carmelo's +1.8). And Marbury didn't make the playoffs in '05, but none of the competitors did particularly well (Carmelo's +4.1 OBPM is good, but not particularly impressive given how much he left on the defensive end). Really, I felt like it was Marbury or going with Guerin or Sears and I generally don't like going with players that early unless they have a pretty good margin. So I'm going with Marbury here, and may God have mercy on my soul.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#5 » by Jaivl » Thu May 20, 2021 3:09 pm

Clear top 4 and then... it's gotta be Melo, right?

Will update later with my votes.

Spoiler:
We got Zach Randolph! Now we got a BEAST to throw the ball down low to!
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#6 » by Dutchball97 » Thu May 20, 2021 3:29 pm

1. Willis Reed, 1968/69 - I see this season as Reed's best in both the regular season and play-offs. I could see solid arguments to pick the 69/70 season but I think Reed was overall a bit better the year before. The next three guys are relatively close but I don't think I could really justify any of them over Reed here.

2. Walt Frazier, 1971/72 - It was a bit of a toss up between Reed and Frazier for the #1 spot for me. It's kinda hard to pinpoint one year as a clear peak year for Frazier but his 72 regular season is at least one of his best, while he arguably had his best play-offs on top of it. It's probably a testament to how consistently good the Knicks were in the late 60s/early 70s since I picked non-title season for both even though they were great during their title runs as well (Reed more so in the first one than the second of course).

3. Bernard King, 1983/84 - King's regular season is pretty strong but not as good as Reed, Frazier or Ewing's best regular seasons. I did end up going with King over Ewing because his post-season was insane this year. I think the difference in post-season play was somewhat more substantial than the regular season difference although that is definitely something up for discussion/interpretation.

4. Patrick Ewing, 1989/90 - I don't have much to add on Ewing to be honest. Great player but more so for being really good for a long time than for having an insane peak year. I think his 92 and 94 seasons were just as good as his 1990 season for example. I don't want to seem like I think he didn't have a strong peak though, I'm just marginally more impressed by Reed, Frazier and King's overall seasons here.

5. Carmelo Anthony, 2012/13 - Like Sansterre already noted, the quality of available seasons falls off a cliff after #4. Camby has a great regular season but mediocre post-season in 2001 and a great post-season and mediocre regular season in 1999. Marbury was the next one I looked at but his regular season isn't nearly impressive enough for me to overlook his lack of play-offs in 05. I was about to put Harry Gallatin's 53 season here but while his impact in both the regular season and play-offs were strong by the looks of it, he was only 7th on the team in minutes in the post-season. Combined with the relative lack of competition from that era and it didn't look like such a good idea anymore. So I went with Carmelo. Pretty good regular season followed by a decentish play-off run. I don't have a ton of confidence in this pick but I wouldn't know who else has a more complete season.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#7 » by Colbinii » Thu May 20, 2021 4:16 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:5. Carmelo Anthony, 2012/13 - Like Sansterre already noted, the quality of available seasons falls off a cliff after #4. Camby has a great regular season but mediocre post-season in 2001 and a great post-season and mediocre regular season in 1999. Marbury was the next one I looked at but his regular season isn't nearly impressive enough for me to overlook his lack of play-offs in 05. I was about to put Harry Gallatin's 53 season here but while his impact in both the regular season and play-offs were strong by the looks of it, he was only 7th on the team in minutes in the post-season. Combined with the relative lack of competition from that era and it didn't look like such a good idea anymore. So I went with Carmelo. Pretty good regular season followed by a decentish play-off run. I don't have a ton of confidence in this pick but I wouldn't know who else has a more complete season.


Harry Gallatin led the Knicks to the #1 Overall seed, around 4.3 SRS in 1953. He led them to the NBA Finals posting .232 WS/48 in the RS and he held Mikan to arguably his worst finals performance of his career.

A significantly better post-season than Carmelo. I know you like post-season--what gives?

FYI, we have incomplete minute data for this era. I wouldn't assume he was 7th in minutes.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#8 » by sansterre » Thu May 20, 2021 4:37 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:5. Carmelo Anthony, 2012/13 - Like Sansterre already noted, the quality of available seasons falls off a cliff after #4. Camby has a great regular season but mediocre post-season in 2001 and a great post-season and mediocre regular season in 1999. Marbury was the next one I looked at but his regular season isn't nearly impressive enough for me to overlook his lack of play-offs in 05. I was about to put Harry Gallatin's 53 season here but while his impact in both the regular season and play-offs were strong by the looks of it, he was only 7th on the team in minutes in the post-season. Combined with the relative lack of competition from that era and it didn't look like such a good idea anymore. So I went with Carmelo. Pretty good regular season followed by a decentish play-off run. I don't have a ton of confidence in this pick but I wouldn't know who else has a more complete season.


Harry Gallatin led the Knicks to the #1 Overall seed, around 4.3 SRS in 1953. He led them to the NBA Finals posting .232 WS/48 in the RS and he held Mikan to arguably his worst finals performance of his career.

A significantly better post-season than Carmelo. I know you like post-season--what gives?

FYI, we have incomplete minute data for this era. I wouldn't assume he was 7th in minutes.

An excellent point as far as the minutes go.

However, the total playoff minutes for the 1953 Knicks are 2640, divided by 5 (players) is 528, divided by 48 minutes is 11.

The Knicks played 11 postseason games in 1953. So while being cautious about minutes is extremely appropriate, their totals *look* exactly like what you'd expect. The numbers may be wrong, but there is little evidence I can see that there are minutes missing.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#9 » by Dr Positivity » Thu May 20, 2021 4:38 pm

1. Walt Frazier 1972 - Excellent offense/defense combination. Going with his highest offensive numbers and when he was clearly the man regular season/playoffs here

2. Patrick Ewing 1990 - Puts up a 29ppg, good in the playoffs. While I'm suspicious he was as good on defense this year as the Riley seasons when he could really sweat his a** off on that end, his shotblocking didn't suffer so it's hard for me to know. Good playoffs.

3. Willis Reed 1970 - Good defender, impressive offense for a center considering he is also a floor spacer in addition to the scoring, great in the playoffs until his injury. I'm not totally convinced he was either the most important offense or defensive player on his team, though.

4. Bernard King 1984 - More efficient version of Melo, spectacular scoring in playoffs.

5. Dave DeBuscchere 1970 - Tough between him and Melo as I think the Knicks version was the best of the latter, ultimately I would rather go with one of the pre-eminent high impact non-boxscore guys of his era due to spacing/defense combo.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#10 » by Colbinii » Thu May 20, 2021 4:39 pm

sansterre wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:5. Carmelo Anthony, 2012/13 - Like Sansterre already noted, the quality of available seasons falls off a cliff after #4. Camby has a great regular season but mediocre post-season in 2001 and a great post-season and mediocre regular season in 1999. Marbury was the next one I looked at but his regular season isn't nearly impressive enough for me to overlook his lack of play-offs in 05. I was about to put Harry Gallatin's 53 season here but while his impact in both the regular season and play-offs were strong by the looks of it, he was only 7th on the team in minutes in the post-season. Combined with the relative lack of competition from that era and it didn't look like such a good idea anymore. So I went with Carmelo. Pretty good regular season followed by a decentish play-off run. I don't have a ton of confidence in this pick but I wouldn't know who else has a more complete season.


Harry Gallatin led the Knicks to the #1 Overall seed, around 4.3 SRS in 1953. He led them to the NBA Finals posting .232 WS/48 in the RS and he held Mikan to arguably his worst finals performance of his career.

A significantly better post-season than Carmelo. I know you like post-season--what gives?

FYI, we have incomplete minute data for this era. I wouldn't assume he was 7th in minutes.

An excellent point as far as the minutes go.

However, the total playoff minutes for the 1953 Knicks are 2640, divided by 5 (players) is 528, divided by 48 minutes is 11.

The Knicks played 11 postseason games in 1953. So while being cautious about minutes is extremely appropriate, their totals *look* exactly like what you'd expect. The numbers may be wrong, but there is little evidence I can see that there are minutes missing.


Those minutes are not accurate. Look at individual games, there are no minutes.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#11 » by sansterre » Thu May 20, 2021 4:50 pm

Colbinii wrote:
sansterre wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Harry Gallatin led the Knicks to the #1 Overall seed, around 4.3 SRS in 1953. He led them to the NBA Finals posting .232 WS/48 in the RS and he held Mikan to arguably his worst finals performance of his career.

A significantly better post-season than Carmelo. I know you like post-season--what gives?

FYI, we have incomplete minute data for this era. I wouldn't assume he was 7th in minutes.

An excellent point as far as the minutes go.

However, the total playoff minutes for the 1953 Knicks are 2640, divided by 5 (players) is 528, divided by 48 minutes is 11.

The Knicks played 11 postseason games in 1953. So while being cautious about minutes is extremely appropriate, their totals *look* exactly like what you'd expect. The numbers may be wrong, but there is little evidence I can see that there are minutes missing.


Those minutes are not accurate. Look at individual games, there are no minutes.

You may be right.

But where did the minutes come from? BBR has no problem leaving minutes off of team/year pages (specifically everything from 1951 and before). Logically, I only see three possibilities:

1) The minutes *were* counted overall (somewhere), even if we don't know the individual game by game breakdown and that's what we're seeing on the totals;
2) BBR made educated guesses on the players' minutes based on their shooting volume (or something);
3) BBR flat-out guessed on the minutes.

#3 seems obviously false. I mean, why would they make up numbers when they were comfortable not posting numbers at all for entire seasons?

#2 seems more possible, but still weird. Gallatin in the regular season averaged 18.2% of his team's shots, but in the playoffs (assuming the numbers totals are accurate) took 19.8% of his team's shots. Why would that number change? If they were eyeballing the data you'd expect them to try and hold such things constant. And again, we know that BBR has no problem with posting blanks where they don't have the data.

This leads me to conclude that #1, however improbable, may be the most likely. Barring some sort of admission that they're eyeballing it (not unlike how they used estimates for pace in a lot of early seasons) I lean toward assuming that the totals are actually reasonably accurate.

Could be wrong.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#12 » by Colbinii » Thu May 20, 2021 4:53 pm

sansterre wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
sansterre wrote:An excellent point as far as the minutes go.

However, the total playoff minutes for the 1953 Knicks are 2640, divided by 5 (players) is 528, divided by 48 minutes is 11.

The Knicks played 11 postseason games in 1953. So while being cautious about minutes is extremely appropriate, their totals *look* exactly like what you'd expect. The numbers may be wrong, but there is little evidence I can see that there are minutes missing.


Those minutes are not accurate. Look at individual games, there are no minutes.

You may be right.

But where did the minutes come from? BBR has no problem leaving minutes off of team/year pages (specifically everything from 1951 and before). Logically, I only see three possibilities:

1) The minutes *were* counted overall (somewhere), even if we don't know the individual game by game breakdown and that's what we're seeing on the totals;
2) BBR made educated guesses on the players' minutes based on their shooting volume (or something);
3) BBR flat-out guessed on the minutes.

#3 seems obviously false. I mean, why would they make up numbers when they were comfortable not posting numbers at all for entire seasons?

#2 seems more possible, but still weird. Gallatin in the regular season averaged 18.2% of his team's shots, but in the playoffs (assuming the numbers totals are accurate) took 19.8% of his team's shots. Why would that number change? If they were eyeballing the data you'd expect them to try and hold such things constant. And again, we know that BBR has no problem with posting numbers.

This leads me to conclude that #1, however improbable, may be the most likely. Barring some sort of admission that they're eyeballing it (not unlike how they used estimates for pace in a lot of early seasons) I lean toward assuming that the totals are actually reasonably accurate.

Could be wrong.


If you do believe this (I don't) then you should ask yourself if you would take a Bobby Jones type player (Routinely 6th in Minutes Played on good teams) over Carmelo Anthony--and for me it is a resounding yes.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#13 » by sansterre » Thu May 20, 2021 5:12 pm

Colbinii wrote:
sansterre wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Those minutes are not accurate. Look at individual games, there are no minutes.

You may be right.

But where did the minutes come from? BBR has no problem leaving minutes off of team/year pages (specifically everything from 1951 and before). Logically, I only see three possibilities:

1) The minutes *were* counted overall (somewhere), even if we don't know the individual game by game breakdown and that's what we're seeing on the totals;
2) BBR made educated guesses on the players' minutes based on their shooting volume (or something);
3) BBR flat-out guessed on the minutes.

#3 seems obviously false. I mean, why would they make up numbers when they were comfortable not posting numbers at all for entire seasons?

#2 seems more possible, but still weird. Gallatin in the regular season averaged 18.2% of his team's shots, but in the playoffs (assuming the numbers totals are accurate) took 19.8% of his team's shots. Why would that number change? If they were eyeballing the data you'd expect them to try and hold such things constant. And again, we know that BBR has no problem with posting numbers.

This leads me to conclude that #1, however improbable, may be the most likely. Barring some sort of admission that they're eyeballing it (not unlike how they used estimates for pace in a lot of early seasons) I lean toward assuming that the totals are actually reasonably accurate.

Could be wrong.


If you do believe this (I don't) then you should ask yourself if you would take a Bobby Jones type player (Routinely 6th in Minutes Played on good teams) over Carmelo Anthony--and for me it is a resounding yes.

I've got no dog in the hunt as far as whether or not Gallatin's purportedly low postseason minutes should preclude him from the #5 spot. I see the argument (though I'd be cautious about it in light of the numbers' questionability), but he still posted the 2nd highest Win Shares of the team (and highest WS48). Other posters have spoken in appreciation (rightfully so) of Marcus Camby's 1999 postseason.

A postseason where he averaged 25.5 minutes a game.

I, personally, wouldn't read too much into it. His playoffs saw him increase his usage and nearly maintain his +7% shooting, and he shot at +7.2% against Mikan in the Finals. Minutes or not, it was a strong playoffs from him.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#14 » by Odinn21 » Thu May 20, 2021 7:43 pm

Ah, one of my favourites in this project because all 3 major candidates for the top spot feel incredibly close.

I know I'm pretty harsh on injuries and missed games, and my #1 pick might go against that, but with the postseason run he was having, it's gotta be Reed.

I edited my vote. I initially had Reed/Frazier but changed to Frazier/Reed after watching some extended footages.

1. 1972 Walt Frazier
The reason why I had Reed over Frazier was Reed's regular season performance being better, but after seeing some related videos, I have Frazier's regular season on the same level and postseason slightly better, despite the massive competition Reed had to play through. I also penalized Reed slightly harsher for those last 2 games in the playoffs.
His defensive performance against West was just insane. West had a regular season of 25.8 ppg on .477 fg, he was having issues already and had 24.5 ppg on .404 fg until the finals. But Frazier made him go 19.8 ppg on .325 fg.

2. 1970 Willis Reed
The only MVP in the franchise history and I can't say that he did not deserve that. But the main reason for that is the playoffs. Now, if you just look at overall per game numbers, you would not realize the run he was having. You might think 1969 was better for him. But it was not.
Reed went
21/18/3 against Unseld
28/12/3 against Kareem
32/15/4 against Wilt in the 4 games before he went down
Up until his injury, he was having 26/15/3 on decent efficiency against probably the goat positional/matchup competition.
The level he was playing against that competition was just barking mad.

3. 1994 Patrick Ewing
I know that 1990 is the popular season for him due to higher box numbers, but 1994 was the season all came together for his defense with Riley and roster structure and them doubling down on that defensive road.
Other than the great 1970 team, this was the only other time the team had a NRtg of +7 or better. They ranked 2nd in SRS and NRtg. They had -8.1 rDRtg in regular season and -5.3 rDRtg in postseason. These numbers are no joke. These numbers are on par with Duncan's Spurs or Garnett's Celtics.
And while it was obvious that he wasn't the ideal offensive centrepiece, he was far from being a bad one and a negative impact.

4. 1984 Bernard King
Bernard King's peak should be noted as after All-Star break in 1984 to until his injury in 1985. But as a season, 1984 has to do it. Especially with the postseason run he had. He was remarkable. A high volume scorer with proper impact forcing a game 7 against a better team.

5. 1972 Dave DeBusschere
One of the players I respect the most in the game's history. Ultimate glue guy. Did everything well, on an individual level he was more capable than what he did but he did those things with insane impact. We had anything like RAPM for the era, I'd expect DeBusschere being at the top in a fashion like Draymond Green.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#15 » by O_6 » Thu May 20, 2021 8:09 pm

Walt Frazier is 1972 is one of my favorite old school seasons ever. With Willis Reed out for the season after 11 games, Frazier was asked to pick up a bigger role as a scorer. He does exactly that by setting career highs in scoring volume (23.2 PPG) and efficiency (.576 TS% -- +7.2% -- 222.3 TS add). He does this while still being one of the best ball-handlers and floor generals in the game, his 5.8 APG rank 9th in the league but are limited to a degree due to Holzman's offense. He is also considered the best perimeter defender in the game during this season, landing a 1st team All-Defense spot (on top of 1st-team All-NBA).

- One of the best ball-handlers/passers in the league
- Versatile offense allowed him to make impact on-ball and off-ball
- Incredibly efficient volume scorer (his +222.3 TS add ranks 4th in the league)
- THE best perimeter defender in the league or atleast in the mix

Alongside DeBusschere, Frazier carries the Knicks to the 2nd best record in the conference and then gets into the playoffs where he puts on an absolute show.

26/7/6 on .556 TS% (+5.4%) vs. the mediocre -1.26 SRS (38 win) Baltimore Bullets led by Unseld
24/6/5 on .605 TS% (+10.3%) vs. the extremely good +4.38 SRS (56 win) Celtics led by Havlicek/Cowens
23/8/8 on .613 TS% (+11.1%) vs. the All-Time Great +11.65 SRS (69 win) Lakers led by Wilt/West

The series against the Celtics is overlooked but was truly a legendary performance. Against an excellent Celtics squad that would win 68 games the following year and the NBA title the year after that, Frazier thoroughly outplayed Havlicek in a battle of the best perimeter players in the game alongside West. I know they played different positions but Frazier getting past Prime 1st team All-NBA Havlicek and Prime Cowens in '72 with the less talented team was unbelievable.

Then he goes to the NBA Finals against the arguable GOAT team and although they lose in 5, Frazier completely outplays Jerry West and is the clear 2nd best player in the series to Wilt. 23/8/8 on absurd efficiency while being a shut down perimeter defender? Frazier showed up bigtime in that series. He was the 3rd best player in the league that year after a Dominant Young Kareem and a Dominant Older defensive oriented Wilt.

Willis Reed was a fantastic player and '69 Reed was a great season. I've always been impressed by his highlights, he was a powerful athlete with a sweet mid-range touch and played both ends of the floor at a high level. But IMO, Frazier peaked as the more impressive player even in that era when Bigs were generally more important. CP3 might have taken the title, but prime Frazier still has an argument as the most complete PG ever considering all the boxes he was able to check. He was just an unbelievable player. The lack of strong MVP voting hurts his legacy a little, but a lot of that was due to off-the-court image related stuff (flashy black man that literally dressed like a pimp in 70s NYC and was a well known ladies man). DeBuscchere and Reed were more respected by the media at the time for being blue-collar guys, but Frazier was the key to those teams imo although all three were important.

1. 1972 Walt Frazier: For the reasons stated above. Just an incredibly complete backcourt player. Ultimately he proved he could carry a team to a Finals without Reed, and we never saw Reed do the same without Frazier. I suspect that Reed wouldn't have been able to do it because Frazier provided a more unique/irreplaceable skillset.

2. 1969 Willis Reed: It was very hard to pick between 1970 and 1969, but the scoring efficiency edge in '69 is hard to ignore. He wasn't as dominant a defensive player as Ewing, but he was very good on that end a smoother more effective offensive player imo. He wasn't as big as Ewing but he was quicker with a better face-up game. Reed was more of a "strong af" PF offensively than a true Center, his offense was more conducive to playing alongside a star PG than Ewing's was (could be reaching here). It's close and ultimately I feel like I'm probably just giving the edge to Reed here because he won and Ewing didn't, but it's also backed up by the advanced stats that Reed was a hair better at his peak.

3. 1990 Patrick Ewing: I went back and forth on this one and '1984 Bernard King. These top 4 seasons are pretty much the consensus and are all fairly close to each other. Like I said above, you could easily argue for Ewing over Reed especially in '90 when he was at his offensive peak. As good as Bernard King was in '84, I think Ewing being a comparable scorer while being the clearly better defender is what gives him the edge. Ewing's series vs. the Celtics (32/11/4 on .597 TS%) basically put the nail in the coffin of the Bird Celtics after a decade of dominance. It's a shame that Ewing's knees didn't allow him to stay at this level for long, '90 Ewing was a beast.

4. 1984 Bernard King: I've mentioned it before, but Bernard King's Peak was really an overlap of the 2nd half of the 1984 season into the injury shortened 1985 season. In 1984 he averaged 23 PPG on .606 TS% in the 1st half of the year over 43 games, but over the 2nd half he averaged 30 PPG on .631 TS% over 34 games and then dropped 35 PPG on .620 TS% over 12 playoff games. He just getting better and better and better and peaked as one of the best scoring forwards ever this year.

His series against an up and coming Detroit team led by Isiah is arguably the best individual Knicks series ever and up there with any series ever in terms of scoring. 43 PPG on .644 TS% including 4 straight 40 point games to win a brutal series (Knicks were outscored by 3 points in the series). King was special and his turn-around jumper was a thing of beauty. The only reason he is #4 on this list is because the 3 players above him were 2-way studs whereas he wasn't a good defender.

5. 2013 Carmelo Anthony: As others have mentioned, there is a pretty significant drop from #4 to #5 on this list. It came down to this season and 1970 Dave DeBusschere for me. Those 70s Knicks teams were one of the first great small-ball teams with an undersized Center in Reed and a true stretch 4 in DeBusschere. I have a lot of respect for DeBusschere as a legendary "glue guy", the spacing and versatile forward defense he provided were basically 40 years ahead of it's time. But all that being said, he was not a very efficient offensive player at all and I think the Knicks having the right pieces around him helped him greatly as well. He was only the 3rd best player on his team during this time.

Carmelo Anthony is a guy I'm not a huge fan of but he had a really impressive 2013 season imo. That team's offense was basically the Felton-Chandler PnR, let JR Smith do his thing and hope he gets hot, give the ball to Melo in the post and let him make the right decision in terms of shoot/pass with the guidance of an ancient Jason Kidd. That was simply a bad offense on paper, especially with Felton being the floor general. Well, that offense ended up 3rd in the league in ORtg and Carmelo was the main reason why imo. He played smarter basketball than ever before, which led the Knicks to getting a ton of good looks from 3 (led the league in 3PAr). They lost to the Pacers in the playoffs and he didn't play great, but the main reason they lost that series is because Hibbert overpowered Chandler especially on the glass. I could see other seasons at #5, but I'll give it to Melo.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#16 » by Owly » Thu May 20, 2021 8:29 pm

Colbinii wrote:
sansterre wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Those minutes are not accurate. Look at individual games, there are no minutes.

You may be right.

But where did the minutes come from? BBR has no problem leaving minutes off of team/year pages (specifically everything from 1951 and before). Logically, I only see three possibilities:

1) The minutes *were* counted overall (somewhere), even if we don't know the individual game by game breakdown and that's what we're seeing on the totals;
2) BBR made educated guesses on the players' minutes based on their shooting volume (or something);
3) BBR flat-out guessed on the minutes.

#3 seems obviously false. I mean, why would they make up numbers when they were comfortable not posting numbers at all for entire seasons?

#2 seems more possible, but still weird. Gallatin in the regular season averaged 18.2% of his team's shots, but in the playoffs (assuming the numbers totals are accurate) took 19.8% of his team's shots. Why would that number change? If they were eyeballing the data you'd expect them to try and hold such things constant. And again, we know that BBR has no problem with posting numbers.

This leads me to conclude that #1, however improbable, may be the most likely. Barring some sort of admission that they're eyeballing it (not unlike how they used estimates for pace in a lot of early seasons) I lean toward assuming that the totals are actually reasonably accurate.

Could be wrong.


If you do believe this (I don't) then you should ask yourself if you would take a Bobby Jones type player (Routinely 6th in Minutes Played on good teams) over Carmelo Anthony--and for me it is a resounding yes.

Why is it you doubt the numbers? That there aren't individual game numbers?

Anyhow, the 303 minutes at Bkb-Ref is the same as other sources predating it (e.g. The Sports Encyclopedia: Pro Basketball 5th Edition 1891-1992, Neft and Cohen, 1992 and Total Basketball: The Ultimate Basketball Encyclopedia, Shouler et al, 2003).
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#17 » by Jaivl » Thu May 20, 2021 9:41 pm

1) 1990 Patrick Ewing (+4.75)
Excellent defensive player that also spearheaded (scoring-wise) a decent enough offense. Remember I chose early-ish 90s Malone over his later, slower, more poised version. With Ewing it's not that much of a debate, but maybe there's a case to be made for some mid 90s season. Ewing + Oakley = average defense, bottom of the barrel d-rebounding gives me a bit of pause, but I trust that he did his part and more.

2) 1972 Walt Frazier (+4.25)
Excellent defensive player that also spearheaded a good offensive team against tough opposition.

3) 1970 Willis Reed (+4.25)
Excellent defensive player that also spearheaded (scoring-wise) an excellent offensive team against brutal positional opposition. Notice a trend? I've come to really appreciate Reed over the last year. That's a tough, trust-worthy, non-nonsense player.

4) 1984 Bernard King (+4.00)
See: 2012 Kevin Durant. Seriously, I remember his peak being lauded back in the day (and with that I mean 10 years ago), and since Durant appeared... it seems he's never talked about anymore. Probably the best lone star + full defense team season of them all among the non-uberstars, absolutely eviscerating the team of the flag-bearer of said mold, Isiah Thomas, in kind of an ironic twist. He out-Dantley'd Dantley, and he didn't even have a Dr. Dunkenstein.

5) 2013 Carmelo Anthony (+3.00)
Feel free to not count this vote if you want, but I can't really find a clearly better option. He took a large offensive role from the stretch 4, and was probably closer to neutral than plain bad defensively not having to deal with faster wings. Two tough playoff series, but also had to deal with two very tough defenses.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#18 » by Djoker » Thu May 20, 2021 10:24 pm

1. 1971-1972 Walt Frazier

Reed was out injured and Walt led this team to the finals. He was a fantastic floor general who could also score well and defend with the best of them. He gets very underrated historically. His Game 7 in 1970 is stuff of legend. I mean sure it's one game but this guy really stepped up in important moments. It was a trend throughout his career and 71-72 was his best overall campaign. He played well in every series. Someone above posted the incredible numbers that he put up.

2. 89-90 Patrick Ewing

This was the year Ewing was actually an offensive machine and combine that with his always great defense and you had a serious hell raiser. The Knicks didn't have too much talent in the early 90's but Ewing made them go. He never was quite the same offensively the way he was this season though.

3. 69-70 Willis Reed

This version of Reed would have been #1 on my list if it wasn't for his injury in the finals. Dropped 28/12 on +5 rTS against Kareem's Bucks in a 4-1 win then 31/15 on + 3 rTS in four games against Wilt's Lakers with the series tied 2-2 before he went down to injury early in Game 5. Willis was a super strong and physical player who rarely ever gave up anything easy on defense either.

4. 83-84 Bernard King

This dude was just money from midrange and in the post. Incredible scorer who gave the pre-Bad Boy Pistons something to think about in that famous series against the Celtics.

5. 12-13 Carmelo Anthony

Carmelo's overall scoring skillset was rarely matched in NBA history and his all-around game gets underappreciated.

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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#19 » by 70sFan » Fri May 21, 2021 10:19 am

1. 1968/69 Willis Reed - amazing all-around season, Reed was excellent defender (mobile as well as tough post defender) and good shooter. He was also more versatile scorer than Ewing who was more resiliant in playoffs. I decided to go with 1969 because of slightly better RS and healthy playoffs.

2. 1989/90 Patrick Ewing - monster scoring season and excellent postseason. Great defender, highly underappreciated compared to other ATGs. Underrated athleticism before injuries started to slow him down.

3. 1971/72 Walt Frazier - I feel uncomfortable with Clyde being only 3rd as I am extremely high on him, but my bias for two-way bigs is too big to overcome. Frazier is one of the best PGs ever and most people don't realize how good he really was until they start to watch Knicks games. I'd take him over modern scoring PGs like Westbrook or Lillard without thinking twice.

4. 1983/84 Bernard King - I'm not that high on King because he's very one-dimensional, but this one dimension is really dominant. One of the truly best scorers ever during his brief peak.

5. 1972/73 Dave DeBusschere - weak boxscore stats, but tremendous defender that gives you additional spacing. On top of that, he was simply very smart and tough player. Can't take Melo over him, his offense isn't good enough to overcome Dave's defense and intangibles.

HM to Richie Guerin - great all around offensive guard who was also solid defender.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks 

Post#20 » by ZeppelinPage » Fri May 21, 2021 10:35 am

1. '72 Walt Frazier
Pretty amazing season, best player on the Knicks and should probably have a Finals MVP. One of the greatest perimeter defenders I have ever watched on film and overall one of the best two-way PGs ever.

2. '69 Willis Reed
Strong overall two-way season. Led the league in WS/48, played great vs Unseld and Russell in the playoffs. Not on the level of Ewing defensively.

3. '90 Patrick Ewing
I think this season is a little more complete than the rest. Offense with rim protection and a defensive anchor.

3. '84 Bernard King
Ridiculous high efficiency + high volume in RS, then has an amazing playoff run where he destroys the Pistons and helps bring the champion Celtics to 7 games. His +7 rTS on 35 a game in the playoffs is among the greatest postseason scoring performances ever.

5. '72 Dave DeBusschere
Defensive ability was among the most impactful of the era, definitely think he deserves a top 5 spot.

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