RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 (Bill Walton)

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#21 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 20, 2021 10:48 pm

prolific passer wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
prolific passer wrote:Bill Walton is a mystery. Mostly injured but when he did play he was nearly unstoppable due to his skill set.


I mean not really he’s by far the best player left, won a chip the one and only, a MVP, Finals MVP, 6MOY and would have had a DPOY if they gave those out then. He’s def the odd man out here. Sports rankings in general across the board would have a player like Walton ranked where he’s supposed to be not at 100 imo.

That's true. He was the original big fundamental.


Don't know if I'd say that. To me that makes it sound like Walton was a poor man's Duncan, but Walton was mentally quicker on the court than Duncan and an order of magnitude stronger as a passer. On the negative side, he was not the scorer Duncan was, and of course was grossly lacking in all ways durability-wise.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#22 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 20, 2021 10:57 pm

This is the end!

My top 3 remains the same, and I'm including my preference list and my detailed Hawk love letter below.

I think at this point people opinions are largely set, and while I may be pleasantly surprised, looks to my like history-crush-Connie is going to miss the list. :noway: :wink:

While I wish it were otherwise, I get it. Short NBA career, it is what it is.

Regardless of whether you could end up justifying having the Hawk in your Top 100, I just hope you can have a soft spot in your heart for him, and I also hope we can get more footage of him actually playing from his best years as I really think he's like nothing we see in the modern game - and not because he's been obsoleted, but because sometimes, we lose techniques for no justifiable reason at all.

I think Kawhi Leonard would be a better player today if he grew up trying to learn to do what Hawkins did, and by no means do I mean that as a knock on Kawhi relative to his contemporary rivals. I just think there's more than can be done with those Klaws than he's ever learned to do.

1. Connie Hawkins
2. Bill Walton
3. Chris Mullin

Other preferences in order:

Spoiler:
Zelmo Beaty
Mel Daniels
Bernard King
Tiny Archibald
Buck Williams
Dave DeBusschere
Dennis Johnson
Tom Heinsohn
Jerry Lucas
Walt Bellamy
LaMarcus Aldridge


Hawk love letter:

Spoiler:
I think there's never been anyone like him, before or since. I'm dying to see more footage of him, because honestly I think he's got a bunch of moves that we don't have names for.

The roots of Hawkins becoming what he became are a story not of some kind of inevitable success through sheer talent, but of a guy with great talent getting bounced around and picking up stuff as he went.

Hawkins was a star in each of the following places:
1. The Schoolyard
2. Golden Age NYC High School Basketball
3. ABL
4. Harlem Globetrotters
5. ABA
6. NBA

All 6 of these things are a big deal, though I'll note that I'd consider (1) and (4) the best for understanding how Hawkins became what he became where (5) and (6) represent the proof in the pudding.

To speak on (1), the thing to understand is that play in the school yard all day is what the "good" Black boys did in this era. You were either playing basketball, or you were getting involved in gangs, pimping, and eventually drugs. So if you had basketball talent, this is where your family wanted you. Stay on the court, where it's safe.

And from the perspective of these Black kids, when they played (white) kids from other places, they just always got the sense that those white kids were far less experienced, because they were doing a lot of things other than playing basketball.

So, while Hawkins was dominating the incredibly high quality ball of NYC back then too, the Schoolyard was always where he developed his game. Just trying different things.

Others noted that while Hawkins lacked confidence in general, and was a poor reader and a poor student, he was an extremely quick learner when he saw someone else do something on the basketball court. When an opponent did something with the ball against Hawkins, Hawkins seemed to instantly have a new tool.

It's also important to note that in the Schoolyard, Hawkins didn't start out as The Man. He learned to play by fitting in around others who were older and better. We're talking about a kid who was playing against NBA pros (in the NBA off-season) before he was a High School star, so when he was playing those games, he wasn't just going in as the star. He learned to fit in. He learned how to be an aware passer before he learned to be a scorer.

About (3), so as many of you know, Hawkins was banned from college due to point shaving scandal (he later won a lawsuit clearing his name), so he ended up getting an opportunity in Abe Saperstein's ABL, which had various former NBA pros and a 3-point line. In the lone full season of that league, Hawkins would win MVP.

This is obviously impressive for a guy basically straight out of high school - and speaks both to his talent and how much experience he'd already had beyond just playing against other high schoolers - but I'd also argue that if not for the existence of the ABL, there's a good chance Hawkins would have died on the vine. He didn't have any other great skills other than basketball, so most likely he'd have ended up like many of his other peers still in Brooklyn which was being taken over by a see of heroin.

But his performance in the ABL, led to an invitation to join Saperstein's flagship product: The Harlem Globetrotters.

And as fortune would have it, Sweetwater Clifton - former New York Ren, Globetrotters, NBA all-star - played in the ABL that year with Hawkins, and re-joined the Globetrotters at the same time as Hawkins. And he told Hawkins basically, "You don't realize what kind of things you can do with those big hands!"

He mentored Hawkins on the ways you can use your ability to easily palm a hand. More flexibility when driving, more ways to protect the ball when you're guarded, myriad tricky passes, and the ability to rebound with just one hand so you can use your other arm (ahem, elbow) to fend of opponents.

I've noted before that big hands seem to be a Harlem Globetrotter thing. Beginning with the team's first clown - Goose Tatum - along through Clifton, Meadowlark Lemon, along with Wilt Chamberlain, Hawkins, and others - the Globetrotters seemed to look for guys with big hands in a way that the NBA has literally never done. I've also seen it noted that a particular Globetrotter was held back by his hand size despite being naturally very comedic.

There's a kind of trickery you can do with hands like this that lends itself well to comedy through basketball actions, and this raises the question of whether these Globetrotters were much better at certain basketball skills than NBA players.

There the answer is yes with an asterisk. Most of the tricks the Globetrotters did, while they required great skill, were not designed to hold up against actual defenders, and this was a source of frustration for Hawkins who felt that he was becoming soft due to not playing in a real competitive league, which I'd say was true.

At the same time, he'd still go back to NYC and play in the Schoolyard testing out techniques. Basically, he mined stuff out from the Globetrotters, and the stuff he found could work against actual defenders, he made a part of his repertoire. And this is how he became truly unique.

As we look at Hawkins ABA & NBA years, one of the things to understand is that both when he joined Pittsburgh in the ABA and Phoenix in the NBA, the teams did not immediately re-shape their offenses around Hawkins, and between these ramp up times, Hawkins increasing tendency toward injury, and a tendency for Hawkins to get down on himself, when we look at his yearly stats, it has to be noted that there was far more variance over the course of the season in team and Hawkins-specific performance than you'd expect not simply as a modern observer, but as a contemporary observer. Hawkins wasn't the absolute rock that you'd expect from a Jerry West, and this certainly doesn't help his Top 100 case.

But what this context also means is that when you look at Hawkins' yearly stats those first few years, as impressive as they look, know that they underrate what he was doing at his best.

I've noted before that in his first year in the ABA, Hawkins led the league in PPG despite being 3rd on his team in FGA. He did this by also leading the league in TS%, and do so while also leading the team in APG, RPG, and almost certainly BPG & SPM had they had that data (but interestingly he did not lead his team in TOs, and was 11th on his team in terms of TOs per minute). To lead a team to the title like this is amazing, but it does give rise to the question: Why were other guys shooting more than Hawkins?

The answer seems to be that these guys were just flat out bad chuckers who the coach couldn't get to pass the ball even though he'd sometimes bench them just to ensure the ball went to Hawkins, but apparently the team couldn't get anyone better mid-season (neither would last that much longer in the ABA).

Now, I tend to read stuff that focuses on Hawkins' perspective rather than the perspective Chico Vaughn, so bias is a concern. But my conclusion is that even in a young ABA that wasn't what it would later become, the Pittsburgh Pipers had no business winning a title given the lack of team play. But what was the case is that when Hawkins played the pivot, the offense hummed with Hawkins both scoring incredibly well and passing incredibly well.

Hawkins suffered the defining injury of his career midway through his second ABA season, and most don't think he was ever as good again, yet still he ended up blowing away the NBA once he got going.

What precipitated him getting going? Mid-way through the season, Phoenix Suns GM Jerry Colangelo fired coach Red Kerr, took over as coach, and had the team play with Hawkins in the high post as the guy the offense would run through. Prior to that point, Hawkins had been positioned in the corner while team captain Gail Goodrich dribbled, dribbled, dribble, and then shot. Goodrich, it should be noted seems to have had a good attitude and was willing to play in an offense with Hawkins as the focus, but when left to his own devices, he tended to just iso.

A few more anecdotes in Hawkins first year in the NBA:

1. After the Suns beat the Celtics in Boston, Bill Russell - who had retired the previous year - came over and gushed "You can do things with the ball I've never seen before!". (Hawkins responded "If you'd have been out there, you'd have blocked half my shots". Russell then said "I don't think so".)

2. Hawkins drew rave reviews as the best passer in the league. Was he better than Oscar? I'm not prepared to say that, but what I can say is that Hawkins was doing things Oscar could not. One described play involved Hawkins having the ball in the high post and making two quick passing fakes in opposite directions (which he could do because had had the ball palmed), and then casually dribbling through the now open lane to the basket.

3. Another anecdote: Apparently Hawkins could dribble through press defense unaided. When a team pressed the Suns, they'd pass the ball to Hawkins, and get out of the way, while he dribbled his way through opponents. If this seems unrealistic for a player generally, I'd note that this skill was a major thing before the shot clock, and the team most famous for this ability was the Globetrotters back in their still-competitive days in the '40s. Against the Mikan-led Lakers, the Globetrotters famously gave the ball to master-dribbler Marques Haynes, and he dribbled what remained of the 4th quarter away so that his team could take the last shot.

While the shot clock rendered this specific ability moot, the Globetrotters used it as part of their act, and so this was something the Globetrotter players actually practiced, and Hawkins honed the ability there.

So I'd say the most amazing thing isn't that someone could do this, but that Hawkins at 6'8" could do this.

4. I'd note that Wilt said that Hawkins was the only guy in the world who could play "all three positions" - by which he meant guard, forward, and center.

I should also note that Hawkins's quickness and agility was tied to his lithe fame, so when Hawkins played center, he took a severe beating that made it hard for him to sustain that kind of play over a season.

I'll also note that Hawkins was a guy who got very little training in formal defense. With his long arms and quickness he could get blocks and steals, but he struggled beyond that.

5. Some people hated his "clown antics". Some refs in particular. I think this makes sense because the Globetrotters - while they may be clowns - spend their games making their opponents look like fools. What happens when you do that to someone who isn't paid to take it? Animosity.

6. Among players, Elvin Hayes in particular apparently expressed hostility toward Hawkins, and this led to a showdown in the very last game of the '69-70 season which Hawkin's Suns needed to make the playoffs. The Suns were down 19 points at half time, and in the second half Hawkins & Hayes matched up. Hawkins led the team back to a victory with a 44/20/8 night on 30 FGA, and was said to have had 5 blocks & 5 steals in the 3rd quarter alone. Multiple of those blocks came on Hayes who went for 23/18/2 on 25 FGA.

7. In the playoffs, the Suns would fight hard before losing in 7 to the West/Wilt led Lakers, with some making the comment that it was essentially "the Lakers vs Connie Hawkins".

After that year, Hawkins would still have great runs, but injuries took more of a toll. The general feeling was that his body was much older than his age suggested having played 250 Globetrotter games per year while others his age were playing 25 college games per year, to say nothing about all that time on the Schoolyard.

In the end, with Hawkins, I think it's very hard to know how to rank him and so I completely understand those who won't have him in the Top 100. More than anything else, I hope others can just appreciate how singular he was, and how significant on a level beyond simple career impact.

But I do think he warrants a place above Bill Walton, who is my #3 pick here. Love, love, love Walton, but as much as Hawkins had longevity issues, I'd say Walton had them worse, and I'm not comfortable saying that Walton was clearly the better player best vs best. I think Walton was amazing like this, and he certainly has the defensive edge overall, but in some ways I feel like you could look at Walton on offense as a poor man's Hawkins.

Part of what I'm saying here is that I believe that the pivot-and-cut offense that Jack Ramsay instituted for Walton in Portland is not some completely new thing, but rather something that was huge and never really made it to the NBA. Once the basketball world saw Mikan & Kurland, pivot-and-cut passing didn't seem as useful as just pass to low post and score. And when that paradigm got challenged, it got challenged by perimeter-oriented offenses that in today's game are dominant.

I would submit that we've never really seen the potential for a pivot-and-cut offense in the modern NBA until Nikola Jokic, and I might make a comparison between Jokic & Hawkins. And on that front, note that I have Jokic below Walton. Through the end of last season, I didn't think Jokic had done enough to surpass Walton, but with this season, well, things are changing.

I will note, with regards to context, I consider Jokic to be more of "random genius" than Hawkins. I think Hawkins became what he did because he was shaped by unique context and had specific, rare physical gifts. Jokic seems like he was born like this.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#23 » by DCasey91 » Thu May 20, 2021 10:57 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
prolific passer wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
I mean not really he’s by far the best player left, won a chip the one and only, a MVP, Finals MVP, 6MOY and would have had a DPOY if they gave those out then. He’s def the odd man out here. Sports rankings in general across the board would have a player like Walton ranked where he’s supposed to be not at 100 imo.

That's true. He was the original big fundamental.


Don't know if I'd say that. To me that makes it sound like Walton was a poor man's Duncan, but Walton was mentally quicker on the court than Duncan and an order of magnitude stronger as a passer. On the negative side, he was not the scorer Duncan was, and of course was grossly lacking in all ways durability-wise.


That is all true yet the fact is sports in general don’t disservice that in overall all time rankings, it’s what the player did in that time. His peak is that high and he’s the best left. I mean there’s elite role players ahead of him. In value terms one is a lot rarer to they don’t come around often much much less that of an elite role player. He would have had the sweep on awards and of course won the chip as the best player. All I’m saying is Bill Walton being left out of top 100 is kind of absurd to me.

Heinsohn should be top 100 too.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#24 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 20, 2021 11:08 pm

DCasey91 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
prolific passer wrote:That's true. He was the original big fundamental.


Don't know if I'd say that. To me that makes it sound like Walton was a poor man's Duncan, but Walton was mentally quicker on the court than Duncan and an order of magnitude stronger as a passer. On the negative side, he was not the scorer Duncan was, and of course was grossly lacking in all ways durability-wise.


That is all true yet the fact is sports in general don’t disservice that in overall all time rankings, it’s what the player did in that time. His peak is that high and he’s the best left. I mean there’s elite role players ahead of him. In value terms one is a lot rarer to they don’t come around often much much less that of an elite role player. He would have had the sweep on awards and of course won the chip as the best player. All I’m saying is Bill Walton being left out of top 100 is kind of absurd to me.

Heinsohn should be top 100 too.


Doesn't really seem like a response to my post, nor my post where I directly responded to you.

I'll reiterate that if you think Walton was "by far" better than Hawkins, there's probably a lot you don't know about Hawkins.

All that said, Walton's in my Top 100 too, so I don't object to you singing his praises at all.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#25 » by DCasey91 » Thu May 20, 2021 11:19 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Don't know if I'd say that. To me that makes it sound like Walton was a poor man's Duncan, but Walton was mentally quicker on the court than Duncan and an order of magnitude stronger as a passer. On the negative side, he was not the scorer Duncan was, and of course was grossly lacking in all ways durability-wise.


That is all true yet the fact is sports in general don’t disservice that in overall all time rankings, it’s what the player did in that time. His peak is that high and he’s the best left. I mean there’s elite role players ahead of him. In value terms one is a lot rarer to they don’t come around often much much less that of an elite role player. He would have had the sweep on awards and of course won the chip as the best player. All I’m saying is Bill Walton being left out of top 100 is kind of absurd to me.

Heinsohn should be top 100 too.


Doesn't really seem like a response to my post, nor my post where I directly responded to you.

I'll reiterate that if you think Walton was "by far" better than Hawkins, there's probably a lot you don't know about Hawkins.

All that said, Walton's in my Top 100 too, so I don't object to you singing his praises at all.


No I do know who Hawkins is, scoring star the student after Baylor if you will and the predecessor to Erving. Just that other ABA guys had more success when crossing over Erving, Gilmore, Barry.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#26 » by trex_8063 » Fri May 21, 2021 12:03 am

DCasey91 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
That is all true yet the fact is sports in general don’t disservice that in overall all time rankings, it’s what the player did in that time. His peak is that high and he’s the best left. I mean there’s elite role players ahead of him. In value terms one is a lot rarer to they don’t come around often much much less that of an elite role player. He would have had the sweep on awards and of course won the chip as the best player. All I’m saying is Bill Walton being left out of top 100 is kind of absurd to me.

Heinsohn should be top 100 too.


Doesn't really seem like a response to my post, nor my post where I directly responded to you.

I'll reiterate that if you think Walton was "by far" better than Hawkins, there's probably a lot you don't know about Hawkins.

All that said, Walton's in my Top 100 too, so I don't object to you singing his praises at all.


No I do know who Hawkins is, scoring star the student after Baylor if you will and the predecessor to Erving. Just that other ABA guys had more success when crossing over Erving, Gilmore, Barry.


Those "other ABA guys" didn't destroy their knee prior to crossing over.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#27 » by DCasey91 » Fri May 21, 2021 12:28 am

trex_8063 wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Doesn't really seem like a response to my post, nor my post where I directly responded to you.

I'll reiterate that if you think Walton was "by far" better than Hawkins, there's probably a lot you don't know about Hawkins.

All that said, Walton's in my Top 100 too, so I don't object to you singing his praises at all.


No I do know who Hawkins is, scoring star the student after Baylor if you will and the predecessor to Erving. Just that other ABA guys had more success when crossing over Erving, Gilmore, Barry.


Those "other ABA guys" didn't destroy their knee prior to crossing over.


Okay but I only can go off what everybody produced.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#28 » by trex_8063 » Fri May 21, 2021 12:37 am

DCasey91 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
No I do know who Hawkins is, scoring star the student after Baylor if you will and the predecessor to Erving. Just that other ABA guys had more success when crossing over Erving, Gilmore, Barry.


Those "other ABA guys" didn't destroy their knee prior to crossing over.


Okay but I only can go off what everybody produced.


Your call. THough you literally just gave Bill Walton a pass on his post-injury production (or lack thereof). All I'm sayin'.....
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#29 » by DCasey91 » Fri May 21, 2021 12:39 am

trex_8063 wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
Those "other ABA guys" didn't destroy their knee prior to crossing over.


Okay but I only can go off what everybody produced.


Your call. THough you literally just gave Bill Walton a pass on his post-injury production (or lack thereof). All I'm sayin'.....


No I didn’t my main points have always been his such high peak because he was that great and what he achieved being the best player on a championship team. Do not put words in my mouth not on.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#30 » by trex_8063 » Fri May 21, 2021 12:40 am

1st vote: LaMarcus Aldridge
This was initially almost a coin-flip between him and Webber, but I'm more and more comfortable with it.
I don't think he peaked quite as high (peaking at probably a weak All-NBA 2nd Team level), but he was just so solidly consistent for about 11 straight years. It's left him in fairly high standing in various counting and cumulative metrics, but he also has a handful on years rating out in the top 12-15 of the league in terms of impact (see below).

Where some people try to label LMA as a low-efficiency volume scorer, I'd advise looking to his turnover economy, which is arguably GOAT [like for real: GOAT] among big-men. So his all-around offensive efficiency should be viewed in light of that.

He always struck me as reasonably solid defensively through his prime [above neutral at his worst].

And where some try to label him "empty stats", I'd note that is simply NOT reflected in the actual impact metrics. For instance, I'd note he has NINE seasons >+2 RAPM, and EIGHT above +3.
Below is his league rank in combined PI RAPM by year:
'09: 16th
'10: tied for 18th
'11: 21st
'12 (NPI): tied for 31st
'13: tied for 15th (with All-NBA 1st teamer Tim Duncan)
'14 (NPI): tied for 15th
'15: 25th
'16: 22nd
'17: notable dip (still positive, but no where near top of the league)
'18 (NPI, rs-only): 12th

So that's a solid decade where his impact metrics would fairly consistently posit him as a fringe All-Star at worst (and All-NBA 2nd/3rd team level at best), especially considering he played anywhere from 30.6 to 39.6 mpg [avg of 35.7 mpg] over this decade while missing relatively few games.

tbh, I'm sort of surprised he doesn't have more support. Prior to the start of this current season he:
*Had the 61st-highest career PER of all-time; this while avg >34 mpg in >1000 games.
**Was 61st all-time in career WS.
***Was 90th in career VORP.

And all of this with a decent impact profile (as noted above), while also nabbing SEVEN All-Star selections [in the tough West, too], FIVE All-NBA honors (3x 3rd, 2x 2nd), and THREE top-10 finishes in the MVP vote (for the people placing serious emphasis on media accolades).
More complete outline noted above in post #2.

Sure just seems like he ticks off more than enough of the necessary boxes for the mid-90s section of the list.



2nd vote: Chris Webber
Short(ish) prime, and certainly under-achieved his potential [though his potential was REALLY damn high]. He's still a very nice peak and top 2-3 years, with some useful years outside of that. An OK [and somewhat versatile] scorer, EXCELLENT passing big-man, very very good rebounder, good defender when engaged (though I'll freely acknowledge he was NOT consistently engaged).
Although he's an under-achiever [boy, this is a lukewarm endorsement!], I think he did enough in his career to warrant consideration here.


3rd vote: Zelmo Beaty
He's been name-dropped [not only be me, as of last thread]. I'm gonna start pushing for him.
The more I look at him, the more underrated he looks. Several really solid NBA season (seemed pretty reliable for around 18-21 pts and 11-14 reb on VERY good shooting efficiency basically all thru the mid-late 60s). What's more is he has a passable to decent defensive reputation (known as a pretty physical [almost "enforcer"-type??] defender).

Then he jumps into the ABA of the early-mid 70s (an ABA that had Rick Barry, Mel Daniels, and Dan Issel, plus Erving, Gilmore, and McGinnis by Zelmo's 2nd season), and he immediately looks like one of its very best players for those first two seasons. By his 3rd season in the ABA [now age 33], he declines to being merely fringe All-Star level.

I'll try to post a little more later, but he just looks like a very solid candidate.
Cheeks, Sikma, and Porter also very close here.

Have updated my list [for Condorcet purposes] to include ANYONE who has received votes of any kind, plus some others who are definitley on my radar:
LMA > Webber > Beaty > Cheeks > Lowry > Walker > DeBusschere > Hawkins > Johnston > D.Johnson > Walton > Dandridge > Tiny > Penny > King > Heinsohn (may change the order on Walton/Tiny as we go along, but this is how I'm currently feeling).
Could also see bumping Hawkins ahead of DeBusschere +/- Walker. DeBusschere pops a little [visually] when I was doing the game log project, though. Admittedly not always in a good way [takes a lot of shots at questionable accuracy]; but holy crap was he active. Rebounds, deflections, assists, points, generally busting plays; and fwiw he was willing/capable of shooting from the outside, so there was at least a little spacing effect. He'd fit nice in the modern league (where era portability is important to anyone).
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#31 » by trex_8063 » Fri May 21, 2021 12:53 am

DCasey91 wrote:No I didn’t my main points have always been his such high peak because he was that great and what he achieved being the best player on a championship team.


Another poster pointed out that Hawkins' peak was likely not behind Walton "by far" [your words]; and Hawkins won a title as the best player too, fwiw.

You brushed aside Hawkins' case [apparently of even not being behind "by far"] on the basis of Hawkins never having produced like that again, even though injury was the reason WHY he didn't.

Naturally, that feels very very "pot calling the kettle black" when coming from the Walton camp.......hence my reply.
Sorry to put words in your mouth [though still a pinch unclear on what it is you ARE saying wrt Hawkins].
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#32 » by DCasey91 » Fri May 21, 2021 1:04 am

:oops:
trex_8063 wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:No I didn’t my main points have always been his such high peak because he was that great and what he achieved being the best player on a championship team.


Another poster pointed out that Hawkins' peak was likely not behind Walton "by far" [your words]; and Hawkins won a title as the best player too, fwiw.

You brushed aside Hawkins' case [apparently of even not being behind "by far"] on the basis of Hawkins never having produced like that again, even though injury was the reason WHY he didn't.

Naturally, that feels very very "pot calling the kettle black" when coming from the Walton camp.......hence my reply.
Sorry to put words in your mouth [though still a pinch unclear on what it is you ARE saying wrt Hawkins].


Didn’t brush aside Hawkins’s case nor did I say he never produced like that again. I’m not going to bother explaining when you don’t understand. Stop putting words in my mouth I shouldn’t even bother replying. I said other ABA players had more success crossing over that’s different that’s their cases.

Btw I think Hawkins is top 100 same with Heinsohn.
Also I value an NBA Championship over an ABA one but that’s pretty self explanatory

I think Walton is by far the best player left which means to say out of all the candidates he should be unanimously in. Didn’t mention other guys such as Mullin, Dumars, Aldridge, Webber etc etc. why pick out Hawkins then?
There’s a half a dozen guys that could occupy the 100th spot. Walton for me shouldn’t even be in the conversation for 100th he should already be in, do you see now where I’m coming from?
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#33 » by Doctor MJ » Fri May 21, 2021 1:48 am

DCasey91 wrote:No I do know who Hawkins is, scoring star the student after Baylor if you will and the predecessor to Erving. Just that other ABA guys had more success when crossing over Erving, Gilmore, Barry.


Okay, so you know what most knowledgeable basketball folk about Hawkins, which means you're really not understanding him. Please do read what I wrote in the spoiler of my vote. Sufficed to say that the Baylor-Erving comparisons are problematic. Hawkins was closer to Magic Johnson, with an ability to get major amounts of blocks and steals even in the NBA...and with a Baylor-Erving type of skywalking ability prior to the knee injury, but with a much more acute sense of efficiency.

But even that misses the aspect of the way Hawkins weaponized tools from the Globetrotters based around extremely large hands. We're not just talking about the Erving-Jordan ability to palm the ball to drive to the hole, but an arsenal of tools to manipulate the defense with feinted passes and shots. The NBA is missing this today, so I really don't think folks really understand the kind of impact that was possible like this.

Re: Others had more success crossing over to the NBA. Okay, let me go by this guy by guy:

Gilmore - only if you mean by longevity. Rookie NBA Hawkins was seen as a Top 5 player in the league, and I'd say correctly so.

Barry - you realize he started in the NBA before joining the ABA right? So we're not talking about a young guy surpassing another because he's hitting his prime. Hawkins and Barry played in the ABA at the same time. The consensus was that Hawkins was better, and that's what I see in the data as well. Was peak NBA Barry better than peak NBA Hawkins, I'd give him the nod, but it's slight. (Again, Hawkins, Top 5 NBA player.) And that's Hawkins after injury robbed him of his apex ability.

Erving - hmm. I would object to the idea that arguing Peak Erving > Peak Hawkins, is proof that Peak Walton > Peak Hawkins, let alone Peak Walton >> Peak Hawkins. While I think it's within the realm of possibility that Peak Hawkins actually was better than Peak Erving, I don't think he needs to be to trigger a perspective like what you and I both see in Walton.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#34 » by DCasey91 » Fri May 21, 2021 1:56 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:No I do know who Hawkins is, scoring star the student after Baylor if you will and the predecessor to Erving. Just that other ABA guys had more success when crossing over Erving, Gilmore, Barry.


Okay, so you know what most knowledgeable basketball folk about Hawkins, which means you're really not understanding him. Please do read what I wrote in the spoiler of my vote. Sufficed to say that the Baylor-Erving comparisons are problematic. Hawkins was closer to Magic Johnson, with an ability to get major amounts of blocks and steals even in the NBA...and with a Baylor-Erving type of skywalking ability prior to the knee injury, but with a much more acute sense of efficiency.

But even that misses the aspect of the way Hawkins weaponized tools from the Globetrotters based around extremely large hands. We're not just talking about the Erving-Jordan ability to palm the ball to drive to the hole, but an arsenal of tools to manipulate the defense with feinted passes and shots. The NBA is missing this today, so I really don't think folks really understand the kind of impact that was possible like this.

Re: Others had more success crossing over to the NBA. Okay, let me go by this guy by guy:

Gilmore - only if you mean by longevity. Rookie NBA Hawkins was seen as a Top 5 player in the league, and I'd say correctly so.

Barry - you realize he started in the NBA before joining the ABA right? So we're not talking about a young guy surpassing another because he's hitting his prime. Hawkins and Barry played in the ABA at the same time. The consensus was that Hawkins was better, and that's what I see in the data as well. Was peak NBA Barry better than peak NBA Hawkins, I'd give him the nod, but it's slight. (Again, Hawkins, Top 5 NBA player.) And that's Hawkins after injury robbed him of his apex ability.

Erving - hmm. I would object to the idea that arguing Peak Erving > Peak Hawkins, is proof that Peak Walton > Peak Hawkins, let alone Peak Walton >> Peak Hawkins. While I think it's within the realm of possibility that Peak Hawkins actually was better than Peak Erving, I don't think he needs to be to trigger a perspective like what you and I both see in Walton.


I mentioned Hawkins being in the top 100. But because it’s the last spot I prefer Walton here by far. Btw I don’t see Hawkins being close to Magic as the archetype, Erving/Baylor? Yes. Magic is an outlier of a distributor even amongst the greatest ever. I have Barry ahead of Hawkins same with Erving and Gilmore.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#35 » by Doctor MJ » Fri May 21, 2021 1:58 am

DCasey91 wrote::oops:
trex_8063 wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:No I didn’t my main points have always been his such high peak because he was that great and what he achieved being the best player on a championship team.


Another poster pointed out that Hawkins' peak was likely not behind Walton "by far" [your words]; and Hawkins won a title as the best player too, fwiw.

You brushed aside Hawkins' case [apparently of even not being behind "by far"] on the basis of Hawkins never having produced like that again, even though injury was the reason WHY he didn't.

Naturally, that feels very very "pot calling the kettle black" when coming from the Walton camp.......hence my reply.
Sorry to put words in your mouth [though still a pinch unclear on what it is you ARE saying wrt Hawkins].


Didn’t brush aside Hawkins’s case nor did I say he never produced like that again. I’m not going to bother explaining when you don’t understand. Stop putting words in my mouth I shouldn’t even bother replying. I said other ABA players had more success crossing over that’s different that’s their cases.

Btw I think Hawkins is top 100 same with Heinsohn.
Also I value an NBA Championship over an ABA one but that’s pretty self explanatory

I think Walton is by far the best player left which means to say out of all the candidates he should be unanimously in. Didn’t mention other guys such as Mullin, Dumars, Aldridge, Webber etc etc. why pick out Hawkins then?
There’s a half a dozen guys that could occupy the 100th spot. Walton for me shouldn’t even be in the conversation for 100th he should already be in, do you see now where I’m coming from?


So first I want to extend my appreciation for looking to throw the Hawkins camp a bone with your Heinsohn line.

Second, I want to make clear that I think I'm the only one in the Hawkins camp (but c'mon in folks, there's a roaring fire and we can make s'mores!), and so trex isn't singling you out on the basis of something about the Hawkins camp - I'd venture to say we're on two very different sides of the peak-longevity emphasis spectrum - he's just pointing that a Walton voter can use much the same peak-more-than-longevity argument for Hawkins and so while you're free to prefer Walton peak vs peak, dismissing Hawkins based on injury seems inconsistent.

Third, we're talking about Hawkins because I brought up Hawkins. I brought up Hawkins because you said no one left had a peak even close to Walton, and I disagree, which is why I've been voting for Hawkins all this time with a long explanation for why that clearly many folks just didn't feel like reading. Sigh, oh well.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#36 » by Doctor MJ » Fri May 21, 2021 2:01 am

DCasey91 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:No I do know who Hawkins is, scoring star the student after Baylor if you will and the predecessor to Erving. Just that other ABA guys had more success when crossing over Erving, Gilmore, Barry.


Okay, so you know what most knowledgeable basketball folk about Hawkins, which means you're really not understanding him. Please do read what I wrote in the spoiler of my vote. Sufficed to say that the Baylor-Erving comparisons are problematic. Hawkins was closer to Magic Johnson, with an ability to get major amounts of blocks and steals even in the NBA...and with a Baylor-Erving type of skywalking ability prior to the knee injury, but with a much more acute sense of efficiency.

But even that misses the aspect of the way Hawkins weaponized tools from the Globetrotters based around extremely large hands. We're not just talking about the Erving-Jordan ability to palm the ball to drive to the hole, but an arsenal of tools to manipulate the defense with feinted passes and shots. The NBA is missing this today, so I really don't think folks really understand the kind of impact that was possible like this.

Re: Others had more success crossing over to the NBA. Okay, let me go by this guy by guy:

Gilmore - only if you mean by longevity. Rookie NBA Hawkins was seen as a Top 5 player in the league, and I'd say correctly so.

Barry - you realize he started in the NBA before joining the ABA right? So we're not talking about a young guy surpassing another because he's hitting his prime. Hawkins and Barry played in the ABA at the same time. The consensus was that Hawkins was better, and that's what I see in the data as well. Was peak NBA Barry better than peak NBA Hawkins, I'd give him the nod, but it's slight. (Again, Hawkins, Top 5 NBA player.) And that's Hawkins after injury robbed him of his apex ability.

Erving - hmm. I would object to the idea that arguing Peak Erving > Peak Hawkins, is proof that Peak Walton > Peak Hawkins, let alone Peak Walton >> Peak Hawkins. While I think it's within the realm of possibility that Peak Hawkins actually was better than Peak Erving, I don't think he needs to be to trigger a perspective like what you and I both see in Walton.


I mentioned Hawkins being in the top 100. But because it’s the last spot I prefer Walton here by far. Btw I don’t see Hawkins being close to Magic as the archetype, Erving/Baylor? Yes. Magic is an outlier of a distributor even amongst the greatest ever. I have Barry ahead of Hawkins same with Erving and Gilmore.


Did it not occur to you why I was making the Magic comparison?

You might want to read my post if you're willing to admit you don't know everything about everything.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#37 » by DCasey91 » Fri May 21, 2021 2:18 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
DCasey91 wrote::oops:
trex_8063 wrote:
Another poster pointed out that Hawkins' peak was likely not behind Walton "by far" [your words]; and Hawkins won a title as the best player too, fwiw.

You brushed aside Hawkins' case [apparently of even not being behind "by far"] on the basis of Hawkins never having produced like that again, even though injury was the reason WHY he didn't.

Naturally, that feels very very "pot calling the kettle black" when coming from the Walton camp.......hence my reply.
Sorry to put words in your mouth [though still a pinch unclear on what it is you ARE saying wrt Hawkins].


Didn’t brush aside Hawkins’s case nor did I say he never produced like that again. I’m not going to bother explaining when you don’t understand. Stop putting words in my mouth I shouldn’t even bother replying. I said other ABA players had more success crossing over that’s different that’s their cases.

Btw I think Hawkins is top 100 same with Heinsohn.
Also I value an NBA Championship over an ABA one but that’s pretty self explanatory

I think Walton is by far the best player left which means to say out of all the candidates he should be unanimously in. Didn’t mention other guys such as Mullin, Dumars, Aldridge, Webber etc etc. why pick out Hawkins then?
There’s a half a dozen guys that could occupy the 100th spot. Walton for me shouldn’t even be in the conversation for 100th he should already be in, do you see now where I’m coming from?


So first I want to extend my appreciation for looking to throw the Hawkins camp a bone with your Heinsohn line.

Second, I want to make clear that I think I'm the only one in the Hawkins camp (but c'mon in folks, there's a roaring fire and we can make s'mores!), and so trex isn't singling you out on the basis of something about the Hawkins camp - I'd venture to say we're on two very different sides of the peak-longevity emphasis spectrum - he's just pointing that a Walton voter can use much the same peak-more-than-longevity argument for Hawkins and so while you're free to prefer Walton peak vs peak, dismissing Hawkins based on injury seems inconsistent.

Third, we're talking about Hawkins because I brought up Hawkins. I brought up Hawkins because you said no one left had a peak even close to Walton, and I disagree, which is why I've been voting for Hawkins all this time with a long explanation for why that clearly many folks just didn't feel like reading. Sigh, oh well.


It might be a semantic thing or a context thing or both lol. I was never dismissive of Hawkins case, nor do I want to explain my reasoning to a different person that couldn’t understand what I was getting at because of the misrepresentation of my words, once again peak for peak it’s Walton hands down for me. It’s arguable of course but I prefer Walton

There are definitely others that have a case for the 100th spot of course. You can’t get me off the Walton bandwagon :) but kudos in championing Hawkins no harm no foul from my side.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#38 » by DCasey91 » Fri May 21, 2021 2:23 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Okay, so you know what most knowledgeable basketball folk about Hawkins, which means you're really not understanding him. Please do read what I wrote in the spoiler of my vote. Sufficed to say that the Baylor-Erving comparisons are problematic. Hawkins was closer to Magic Johnson, with an ability to get major amounts of blocks and steals even in the NBA...and with a Baylor-Erving type of skywalking ability prior to the knee injury, but with a much more acute sense of efficiency.

But even that misses the aspect of the way Hawkins weaponized tools from the Globetrotters based around extremely large hands. We're not just talking about the Erving-Jordan ability to palm the ball to drive to the hole, but an arsenal of tools to manipulate the defense with feinted passes and shots. The NBA is missing this today, so I really don't think folks really understand the kind of impact that was possible like this.

Re: Others had more success crossing over to the NBA. Okay, let me go by this guy by guy:

Gilmore - only if you mean by longevity. Rookie NBA Hawkins was seen as a Top 5 player in the league, and I'd say correctly so.

Barry - you realize he started in the NBA before joining the ABA right? So we're not talking about a young guy surpassing another because he's hitting his prime. Hawkins and Barry played in the ABA at the same time. The consensus was that Hawkins was better, and that's what I see in the data as well. Was peak NBA Barry better than peak NBA Hawkins, I'd give him the nod, but it's slight. (Again, Hawkins, Top 5 NBA player.) And that's Hawkins after injury robbed him of his apex ability.

Erving - hmm. I would object to the idea that arguing Peak Erving > Peak Hawkins, is proof that Peak Walton > Peak Hawkins, let alone Peak Walton >> Peak Hawkins. While I think it's within the realm of possibility that Peak Hawkins actually was better than Peak Erving, I don't think he needs to be to trigger a perspective like what you and I both see in Walton.


I mentioned Hawkins being in the top 100. But because it’s the last spot I prefer Walton here by far. Btw I don’t see Hawkins being close to Magic as the archetype, Erving/Baylor? Yes. Magic is an outlier of a distributor even amongst the greatest ever. I have Barry ahead of Hawkins same with Erving and Gilmore.


Did it not occur to you why I was making the Magic comparison?

You might want to read my post if you're willing to admit you don't know everything about everything.



No I do not know everything that’s absurd. Yes Hawkins had big hands could get steals and deflections etc. I read your paragraph. Pretty sure MJ/Erving had big ones too. Heck Leonard has big hands could get blocks and deflections, steals etc.

My rebuttal was sound in saying about Magic, he’s an outlier of a distributor even amongst the greatest ever. I repeated that part again
That’s his greatest weapon that you failed to ignore. Heck even LBJ is behind Magic as a distributor for comparable size for godsakes.

Hawkins for me once again is closer to the archetype of Baylor/Erving not Magic it’s a sound assessment.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#39 » by trex_8063 » Fri May 21, 2021 2:50 am

Thru post #38:

Bernard King - 2 (Clyde Frazier, Odinn21)
Bill Walton - 2 (DCasey91, HeartBreakKid)
Dennis Johnson - 1 (Hal14)
Connie Hawkins - 1 (Doctor MJ)
LaMarcus Aldridge - 1 (trex_8063)
Penny Hardaway - 1 (Dutchball97)
Bob Dandridge - 1 (penbeast0)
Kyle Lowry - 1 (sansterre)
Tom Heinsohn - 1 (ZeppelinPage)


Eliminating those bottom seven transfers one vote to Walton and ghosts the rest....

Walton - 3
King - 2
(ghosted) - 6

This makes Walton a default winner, which has to be condorcet-validated against the last eliminated [King]. Walton leads King by a comfortable 7-4 edge among these 11 voters, so the last spot is his.

And just like that, we're done. Hazzah!

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

DCasey91 wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joe Malburg wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #100 

Post#40 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri May 21, 2021 2:53 am

Bill has finally been immortalized once more. 8-)

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